Ongoing Obama Controversy

[jinn]

I noted this evening that, finally, one of the major national news networks indicated that a story was forthcoming regarding the Obama citizenship controversy.

No doubt, despite vigorous urging by the Dem. Party to desist, the others will now feel compelled to speak, lest MSNBC (?) reap the "scoop" benefits alone.

This may well prove to be an unprecedented political event; or, on the other hand, after sufficient money has been slimed around, it will prove to have all been "just a mistake"........................

[Sasha88]

From what I read he has yet to come up with a certified copy of his birth certificate with a time and a Doctor's name also the ambassador to the U.S.from Kenya says he was born in Kenya .

[JDS]

Ain't happening..http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081208/...scotus_obama_1

This was obvious all along, and this is why the story received little play....

All sorts of things aren't going to happen and to give them lots of coverage would crowd out the stuff that is happening, has happened or might actually happen.


As any TV journalist will say, to be informed one must read newspapers.

You might like this story for example

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...tory?track=rss

Or this

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...,7258812.story

http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...icate-part-ii/

[mrkirker]

'If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed;
If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed.'
-Mark Twain

[JDS]

Knowing the history of newspapers from Mark Twain's day to the present is helpful and enlightening.

I can offer insight via PM if you're interested.

Whatever. This link
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...icate-part-ii/

explores the question with much care and asks


"How do you prove something to people who come to the facts believing, out of fear or hatred or maybe just partisanship, that they’re being tricked? "

There isn't a good answer, which suggests no answer for fringe theorists...........and which may free them to believe what ever wild notions they may prefer.............
On the other hand, this isn't the way rational discourse, science, and weird stuff like that.......can proceed.

Personally I know that flying saucers are directing the Federal Government.....and all verifiable information to the contrary is a conspiracy to hide the Truth.......Voices have informed me of all of this............

[ponycar17]

JDS, a Certification of Live Birth is NOT a Birth Certificate!!!!! Stop pretending it is... For instance, a Certification of Live Birth is not sufficient for even getting your kids on some local soccer teams. They want the Birth Certificate. Why would we ask for less to become our nation's highest leader?

The media bought it. The voters bought it. And now some in Congress are resisting the idea of congressional hearings because they believe that Barack Obama's "birth certificate" has been posted online.

Not so.

What was posted was not a birth certificate, but something that resembles a "Certification of Live Birth" or COLB, which, even if authentic, does not prove "natural born" U.S. citizenship. You see, in Hawaii, a Certification of Live Birth is issued within a year of a child's birth to those who register a birth abroad or one that takes place outside a hospital.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=81943

Post the Birth Certificate and I'll buy your story once and for all...

Ask yourself, why would he NOT post the birth certificate? Or, ask the UFOs you converse with...

[JDS]

A certificate of birth and a "birth certificate" are the same thing. This isn't complicated.

That's why State of Hawaii officials said it's an authentic birth certificate...etc.
....and maybe in part why the Supreme Court dismissed the whole issue without bothering to comment, despite Clarence Thomas (most qualified) involvement....

It's very clear situation in terms of reasonable and responsible perception...My flying saucer voices don't even know about this subject. They only talk to me about the Bittenberg people, Henry Kissinger, the Trilateral Commission and Black Helicopters that I frequently see in my back yard.........

[ponycar17]

We'll see JDS. I've heard arguments that a COLB can be produced from any valid Birth Certificate from anywhere. I'm not buying why the 'Birth Certificate' has been sealed and this COLB has been released. By the way JDS, that COLB has been available for public scrutiny for a long time before the election took place. Why the Birth Certificate hasn't been released makes no sense to me but alas most Americans care nothing about this issue.

The 'Birth Certificate' has been sealed by the HI governor. Why?...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=79174

Most Americans are only concerned about what amuses them... Matters of Government or Constitutionality are of little importance to an MTV generation. "Like, that's soooo boring..."

You may be right about the issue but Obama should address the allegations. Staying silent and letting his wife rant on to API about the issue is just a bit odd...

Even a real Birth Certificate doesn't address the Indonesia issue.

I will say this though. It doesn't matter how the natural born argument works out, Americans are going to learn the true Obama before 4 years are over. We're seeing restraint and even a bit of a Conservative air about Obama in the pre-Innauguration days but he will try to impose his wild social agendas before his first term ends. If he doesn't, he lied to both sides.

[Deathbunny]

Originally Posted by ponycar17

We'll see JDS. I've heard arguments that a COLB can be produced from any valid Birth Certificate from anywhere. I'm not buying why the 'Birth Certificate' has been sealed and this COLB has been released.

You may be right about the issue but Obama should address the allegations. Staying silent and letting his wife rant on to API about the issue is just a bit odd...

Even a real Birth Certificate doesn't address the Indonesia issue.

1) A certificate of live birth is a birth certificate. Obama's:
http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate
is a perfectly standard example of a Hawaian birth certificate. My aunt was born in Hawaii. That's what her birth certificate looks like.
2) Addressing baseless allegations won't help, it'll only add meaning to something that is meaningless. If a guy kept telling people you were from Mars, wouldja really waste time arguing with him? Or try to convince people you weren't a Martian? Baseless allegations simply aren't worth a response. People believe what they want. Often in spite of evidence to the contrary.
3) Exactly what is "the Indonesian issue?"

[tireman7.62x54r]

1. Hospital name is missing
2. Doctor's name is missing
3. Doctor's signature is missing
4. Mothers age is not listed
5. Fathers age is not listed
6. Would Obama's fathers race be listed as African? (African is not a race).



There is also the questions about Obama's mother giving up American citizenship when she married an Indonesian & went to live in Indonesia.

Does Obama's passport show American or Indonesian citizenship?

Did Obama ever register for the draft?

[Deathbunny]

Originally Posted by tireman7.62x54r

1. Hospital name is missing
2. Doctor's name is missing
3. Doctor's signature is missing
4. Mothers age is not listed
5. Fathers age is not listed
6. Would Obama's fathers race be listed as African? (African is not a race).

There is also the questions about Obama's mother giving up American citizenship when she married an Indonesian & went to live in Indonesia.

Does Obama's passport show American or Indonesian citizenship?

Did Obama ever register for the draft?

1, 2, 3, = Many states did not require that information in the early '60's. Some still do not. Prior to the mid-1940's most people weren't born in hospitals, many without a doctor present; so many birth certificates didn't require that info. Ditto for 4 & 5.
6. Yes, it would. In 1961 "African" was listed as a race.
You can't "give up" citizenship by getting married. It requires that you renounce your citizenship. See here for details:
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizens...nship_776.html
Also note section F. Parents can't renounce citizenship on behalf of their minor children. Even if Obama's mom did, it wouldn't affect HIS citizenship.
His passport was issued by the USA.

[ponycar17]

Originally Posted by Deathbunny

3) Exactly what is "the Indonesian issue?"

His mother married Mr. Soetoro in Indonesia. To enter public school in Indonesia, students were required to accept Indonesian citizenship. During this time in Indonesia's history (war time), Indonesia required sole citizenship. To accept citizenship in Indonesia was to renounce prior citizenship affiliations. Obama's mother chose to allow Barack (aka: Barry Soetoro) to become an Indonesian citizen to enter their public school system, thereby forfeiting US citizenship. I know that stinks but minors hold very little power over their legal rights.

And here's the proof that little Barry Soetoro entered public school in Indonesia...

[Deathbunny]

Originally Posted by ponycar17

His mother married Mr. Soetoro in Indonesia. To enter public school in Indonesia, students were required to accept Indonesian citizenship. During this time in Indonesia's history (war time), Indonesia required sole citizenship. To accept citizenship in Indonesia was to renounce prior citizenship affiliations. Obama's mother chose to allow Barack (aka: Barry Soetoro) to become an Indonesian citizen to enter their public school system, thereby forfeiting US citizenship. I know that stinks but minors hold very little power over their legal rights.

And here's the proof that little Barry Soetoro entered public school in Indonesia...

See above: You can't "give up" citizenship by getting married. It requires that you renounce your citizenship. See here for details:
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizens...nship_776.html
Also note section F. Parents can't renounce citizenship on behalf of their minor children. Even if Obama's mom did, it wouldn't affect HIS citizenship.

[satellite66]

Deathbunny in order to truly judge your agenda on this I have one question. Would you be saying the same things if Obama were a pub?

[mrkirker]

Voices have informed me of all of this............
JDS, try extending the alum foil a little lower, tucking it under your ear lobes. This really helped me!

[JDS]

Solipsism
n. Philosophy.
The theory that the self is the only thing that can be known and verified.
The theory or view that the self is the only reality.
[Latin sōlus, alone + Latin ipse, self + –ISM.]

solipsist sol'ip·sist n.
solipsistic sol'ip·sis'tic adj.

[Deathbunny]

Originally Posted by satellite66

Deathbunny in order to truly judge your agenda on this I have one question. Would you be saying the same things if Obama were a pub?

Hmm. Well, that's interesting. First and foremost, facts are facts regardless of any agenda (or lack thereof). Usually when people start questioning a percieved agenda it's because the facts don't match their expectations. I have no particular regard for Obama, but I have even less for poor research and bizarre conspiracy claims.
To answer your question -- hell, yes. In another thread I was defending McCain's citizenship. And, yes, there was a lawsuit pending in Federal District Court in Concord, New Hampshire contesting his ability to run for president because he was born in the Panama Canal Zone.

[jinn]

It seems that today the Supreme Court paved the way for Mr. Obama to continue onward with the thinly-masked charade of leading the country through change.

I now must view with certainty, after much previous soul-searching, the fact that the United States Constitution, the "Law of the Land", has been subverted and lost to the skulduggery of modern politics.

[ponycar17]

Originally Posted by JDS

Solipsism
n. Philosophy.
The theory that the self is the only thing that can be known and verified.
The theory or view that the self is the only reality.
[Latin sōlus, alone + Latin ipse, self + –ISM.]

solipsist sol'ip·sist n.
solipsistic sol'ip·sis'tic adj.

As proven by your lack of economic education (which is no slight upon you), you pretty much exemplified that theory in other debates. Known, proven, mainstream economics fact was rejected by you because you had not been exposed.

Economists use the tenants I cite just as much as engineers use pi as a reference for the relationship of a circle's circumference to its diameter... It's science...

Thanks for admitting your fault!...

[JDS]

Your notions --and those of conspiracy theorists ---strongly tend toward the solipsistiic, and unfortunately therefore, cannot be rationally discussed.

I commend the intensive thought you've put into it, regardless of its disregard of factors that don't relate to your highly personal view.

This isn't completely disrespectable. Descartes came up with the idea -- or at least the "modern" version of solipcism. I think he mumbled something about God not permitting "deception" to get around the stupid parts of what he was saying. A bit like simplistic references to economics - a transference of values from religion to so-called science.

It was refuted by Heidegger, Dewey, and other thinkers whose work has resulted in deconstructionism and other obscure and discredited trends in contemporary philosphy -- which is after all, a dead-end subject along with religion.

Good work.

[CampingJosh]

Originally Posted by JDS

Your notions --and those of conspiracy theorists ---strongly tend toward the solipsistiic, and unfortunately therefore, cannot be rationally discussed.

I commend the intensive thought you've put into it, regardless of its disregard of factors that don't relate to your highly personal view.

This isn't completely disrespectable. Descartes came up with the idea -- or at least the "modern" version of solipcism. I think he mumbled something about God not permitting "deception" to get around the stupid parts of what he was saying. A bit like simplistic references to economics - a transference of values from religion to so-called science.

It was refuted by Heidegger, Dewey, and other thinkers whose work has resulted in deconstructionism and other obscure and discredited trends in contemporary philosphy -- which is after all, a dead-end subject along with religion.

Good work.

JDS, I wish I could just sit down with you for a while and try to figure out how you think.
In the same post, you accuse others of solipsism, then you go on to claim that both philosophy and religion are "dead-end" subjects.

I really just don't get how you can think that your mind is stable.

[JDS]

Solipcistic thinking isn't necessarily (or even likely to be) the result of a philosophy but merely a matter of insularity.
The gist of it is, "Whatever i chose to believe, is the truth, because everything else is relative, a matter of opinion, a lie, and/or can't be proven."

Some variant of this is extremely common. Hence we have half the country believing in flying saucers, etc.....A dead end.

Philosphy is an interesting field that has (arguably) run its course -- a "dead end" of a more literal sort.

Perhaps calling religion a "dead end" is a bit harsh but I mean it only in that for many people, religious and otherwise, applying simple methods of rational and factual inquiry to faith would be the wrong approach to the whole subject, and lead to a dead end.

[ponycar17]

Self edited due to being off topic and beating a dead subject...

[jinn]

These last several posts are convincing, no, compelling, reason to seek solace in some other forum for awhile.........

[berto64]

That's OK folks, we'll have two years to get get together a conservative Congress to rein 'barry" in.