Obama bin Laden said we turn to "religion" and "guns"...he was right

[Hells Toy Master]

Well said Mr. Terry.

[ampaterry]

Originally Posted by Hells Toy Master

Well said Mr. Terry.

Thank you, sir.

I hear the conjecture quite often that our founders did not intend this to be a nation under God, and have yet to hear any basis for that. While they certainly did not advocate discrimination against people who did not believe in God, and they absolutely did not want the government to promote or work against any specific religion, neither did they intend for God to have no part in our nation, nor to expunge him from any public mention as is being advocated today.

We turn to religion and guns.
Absolutely!
We turn to God as the most powerful force that has ever or ever will exist, and he tells us to turn to him and trust him.
We turn to Guns because Jesus Christ told us we would be better off naked than unarmed.
The saying that God created men and Sam Colt made them equal is not quite correct, because God already made us all equal.
Sam Colt just gave us the means to make sure everyone understands that.

[RunningOnMT]

+1 What Terry said.

[DontCryMrJefferson]

Okay guys, I get the impression that you don't want to argue about this so I'll stop. I'm younger, and grew up in a "Christian" household where I was taught about all that stuff yet still allowed to decide on my own what I believe without fear. Boy did I have another thing coming when I entered the real world.

Regardless, my entire point here is:

I try not to judge anyone based on anything, including but not limited to religion, other than the way they act and the principles and morals they act on.

I disagree to the highest degree that morals MUST come from religion (although I will admit that there are some that would have no morals without religion; I actually find that to be a bad thing). If we need religion to have morals then how moral are we really? Morals should be something we have regardless of what religion tells us. Therefore, I base my morals on what I feel is right and little else. If religion is a prerequisite for morals then I should be a murderous degenerate and, for example, an old Christian friend of mine should be the model of morality. But neither of these things are true, IMO.

So, regardless of what people say I will continue to treat everyone as equals.

One thing I always ask theists (and I get all kinds of different answers) is:

If you didn't have religion, would you rape, steal and kill all the time? If no, then why? If yes... then well...

That's it. I am not going to allow this to divide us any longer. I still believe that is not right.

(by the way, the girl should be able to make her own decisions and learn from her own mistakes unless it is life and death)

EDIT

I think the big difference here is I am open to, and believe there is a small chance, that there is a god. I am able to be convinced with sufficient evidence and arguments. I don't believe that is true with ya'll.

[Teejay9]

Through the centuries there has never been a society or culture that was atheist. They all had a god or gods. They all had their creation stories and all believed in some form of higher power. I think the point trying to be made is that, in this country at least, we have the free will to worship (or not worship) a creator of our own choosing. What becomes sticky is when people try to outdo one another by expounding their own stronger faith. If one has a strong belief, all well and good, it can be very comforting when facing the "Big Chill," but it can also be very divisive when one assumes an attitude of superiority based on personal beliefs. As someone has already pointed out, Jesus main opponents were the organized religious leaders of his day who held fast to their "old" ideas. He sat, ate with, and befriended the "sinners" that the established religion had shunned. Our country was, and there is ample evidence, based on Judeo-Christian beliefs, though they did not name a particular religion. They left it to each one to believe (or not believe) in their creator.
Through experience, I have found you really don't know what you truly believe until you come face to face with eternity. I have also found from experience that some of the most shallow people expound their beliefs the loudest. One who truly believes doesn't try push his (or her) beliefs on others. Some of history's real tragedy's have been committed in the name of religion. Some here have, rather cavalierly opted to "nuke 'em all." That isn't they way of Jesus. He did say if you didn't have a sword, get one.
Just this past year my life was saved by a Muslim. He did it out of the tenants of his religion and love and care for his fellow man.
I believe that all religions teach basically the same thing: Love one another, don't kill (murder), don't steal, treat each other as you would want to be treated.
We still ( for the moment, anyway) have our freedoms. Let's all respect each others' beliefs and be comfortable with our own. TJ

[RunningOnMT]

Originally Posted by DontCryMrJefferson

I disagree to the highest degree that morals MUST come from religion (although I will admit that there are some that would have no morals without religion; I actually find that to be a bad thing). If we need religion to have morals then how moral are we really? Morals should be something we have regardless of what religion tells us. .

I would submit that there ARE no morals without God. That is one of the problems we have in our society today...too many people making value judgements based on their own idea of what is moral, not Gods'.

Any actions thought to be moral, any righteous deeds, that are not based on the laws of our Creator are counterfeit at best and likely ignorantly evil. That speaks to the infiniteness of God and His goodness.

Keep in mind, not everything that comes from religion comes from God.

[Doug.38PR]

Originally Posted by ampaterry

Unfortunate indeed.
But it is good to know that folks still know where to turn when dire times DO hit -

In a way...it's not so unfortunate. It's times like this when things are bad off that we we realize we do need a Savior. It's the hard times that make us stronger.
Some people may try to turn to Obama, while others of us turn to Jesus (and by Jesus I don't mean this mamby pamby fruity guy in a white robe that talks with a lisp to his voice about pacifism and hugging people encouraging them to wear multicolored WWJD bracelets) I'm talking about the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. His Father who "prepares my hands for battle my fingers for war" and "who is my shepherd and shall not want."
I think religion in politics do mix. Seperation of church and state doesn't appear in the Constitution (in spite of what many might think). And Jefferson, in the letter often refered to, didn't mean it the way modern people try to shape it.
I think religion is a good thing. For one, it guards the state. It keeps it in line. The state has to account to the church. The state can't just trample on your liberties. It has a check. I'm not advocating, a "Church of America" or "Establishment" (although I think my above comment is a plus for Establishment, with all it's faults) but I am saying that religion is not something that is just "between you and God." Christianity is not just the government "allowing" Christians to just go to their little building over here and pray...and leave the "real" problems of the world to us "secular" people. We all live in a community. We all live in a state. "No man is an island unto himself." No, not everybody is going to see eye to eye on everything. There will even be men who have some degree or another of doubt about religion (which, BTW, is not necessarily a bad thing Don'tCryJefferson. Ever hear of "doubting" Thomas?. He doubted and questioned something once...he wasn't slammed for it...he was merely answered and shown evidence. It's never bad to ask questions. Especially Christians since asking questions is how you learn and grow.) It is important to have a common worldview on things. This is what liberals and neocons don't want. They don't want people united. They only want people united under their flags of government which they control. If "liberty" and "freedom" and "religion is between you and God" is your philosophy, then you are going to be merely a lone ranger. Unlike the masked hero, you will perish in your efforts. You will be a Randy Weaver or, worse, a David Koresh and die bunkered up alone or with a small cult. Anybody can say "They ain't takin' my gun" and blab about boarding yourself up in your house and wait for the swat to storm in and mow you down...but that's not going to bring victory.

I'm glad more and more people are buying guns. And I'm even more glad to hear more and more people are taking Worship in church seriously. As said, people, I'm sure, aren't doing these things just to give them up to Obama. I hope people, organizing through their churches and state and community governments will keep an eye on Obama and jealously guard the hard won liberties they have and be mindful of how they live their lives and how their communities function

BTW, TJay9, no I don't think you are a non-American because your once rural area has been overrunn by urbanites. Actually...I'd say you are in occupied territory

[ampaterry]

TJ, MT, Doug -
Outstanding points!

Sam, THANK YOU for inviting me here!!!

[Teejay9]

Doug, thanks! That's a load off my mind. TJ