Defence accuracy - The Firearms Forum

TranterUK · 02-07-2009, 02:58 PM

I have been thinking, usually a short cut to being in trouble, loosing money, getting injured or all three.

Can you draw your defensive handgun from its holster and place two rounds into a dinner plate size area at say 10 yds within say 5 seconds?

For those that say no, lets go to 10 seconds, for the yes folks, how about cutting down to three seconds? Too easy? how about 15yds?

This is the sort of straightforward drill I think most people will be able to do, and follow as they improve. One key is keeping the target dinner plate size, just decrease time and increase distance as you can or want to.

Keep it simple, keep it real...

graehaven · 02-07-2009, 03:48 PM

At 15 yards, aren't police, and maybe the judge/jury, going to raise their eyebrows wondering why I'd engage them at that distance? We are talking defensive shooting here. Unless you're backed into a corner of course.

I think 10 yards might be the ultimate limit for most defensive shooting situations.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Always trying to learn.

Insulation Tim · 02-07-2009, 04:12 PM

At age 62 and somewhat slower than when I was 20

, I can spot most people 15 yards and still not outrun them.

Sounds like a good drill, unfortunately none of the ranges I use will allow it.

TranterUK · 02-07-2009, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graehaven

Correct me if I'm wrong. Always trying to learn.

Well I cant my friend, should you be unfortunate enough to have to shoot for your life, I don't know at what distance it will be, or how many there will be shooting back. I can say the odds favour it being in low light, at short range and with little or no warning.

The drill is only to practice drawing and firing two rounds with reasonable accuracy at an average distance. No more.

I drew on some of my early training, having drawn and fired a reasonable group in good time I was told to come back when I could repeat the group, but in half the time.

Vladimir · 02-07-2009, 08:03 PM

My range frowns on shooting from holster ("monkey see, monkey do" reasons). I will practice when I go to my dad's department's range because then we get a private range

. I don't carry defensively. I know where I am going.

delta13soultaker · 02-07-2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graehaven

At 15 yards, aren't police, and maybe the judge/jury, going to raise their eyebrows wondering why I'd engage them at that distance? We are talking defensive shooting here. Unless you're backed into a corner of course.

I think 10 yards might be the ultimate limit for most defensive shooting situations.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Always trying to learn.

Shooting at 15+ yards (25 yards) builds confidence, identifies bad habits, and forces you to use sights.

True, a defensive shooting is more likely to be at just a few feet, not over thirty+ feet away. However, for training affect, long stand off distance shooting is valuable...if for nothing else, because to many people under extreme stress 5 feet may as well be 50 feet for them. In a fight, everything suddenly becomes very difficult.

carver · 02-08-2009, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TranterUK

I have been thinking, usually a short cut to being in trouble, loosing money, getting injured or all three.

Can you draw your defensive handgun from its holster and place two rounds into a dinner plate size area at say 10 yds within say 5 seconds?

For those that say no, lets go to 10 seconds, for the yes folks, how about cutting down to three seconds? Too easy? how about 15yds?

This is the sort of straightforward drill I think most people will be able to do, and follow as they improve. One key is keeping the target dinner plate size, just decrease time and increase distance as you can or want to.

Keep it simple, keep it real...

I have been told that some of the schools, like Front Sight, require this of all students graduating. Draw, fire two shots CM (must be good hits), and within 3 seconds. I'm not there yet! But working on it. Fortunately, I shoot in my yard, and can practice all I want, when I want. Because of this I can, and do, set up two or three targets sometimes. Shooting at about 10 feet I draw and double tap each target, CM, and try to keep track of my time. Fast is good, but missing ain't! If anyone lives near me here in East TX they are welcome to come out and shoot some. No range fees.

delta13soultaker · 02-08-2009, 05:20 PM

Yep, 3 good hits at 3 feet in 3 seconds. Some people outright disregard this standard, some people even mock it, but it is a worthy standard to measure by, in my opinion. Attempting this drill a few times will demonstrate exactly for you how men trained to hit at 7 yards can miss inside an elevator with an entire magazine, as the aiming techniques for 3 ft vs 10+ ft isn't interchangeable.

Crawl/Walk/Run. Even if you can't get under the 3 second window, any improvement makes you better.

I have known Soldiers who got the combat reload of an M16 from standard LBV pouches down to 1 second. That is 1 second old mag on the ground, new mag inside weapon, bolt forward and firing. And 1 second is very very fast. They set that unbelievable standard by modifying their technique to waste no motion and by methodically practicing.

In the beginning, slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Then fast becomes fast.

TranterUK · 02-08-2009, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delta13soultaker

I have known Soldiers who got the combat reload of an M16 from standard LBV pouches down to 1 second. That is 1 second old mag on the ground, new mag inside weapon, bolt forward and firing. And 1 second is very very fast. They set that unbelievable standard by modifying their technique to waste no motion and by methodically practicing.

Did that include cycling the action?

Not sure about one second, but I was pretty quick at one time. Left hand to fresh mag, eject old as new comes up to weapon, not before, slam it home and rip that cocking piece back, one finger one side, wham.

Firing hand never leaves the pistol grip.

The older I get the better I was...

delta13soultaker · 02-08-2009, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TranterUK

Did that include cycling the action?

Not sure about one second, but I was pretty quick at one time. Left hand to fresh mag, eject old as new comes up to weapon, not before, slam it home and rip that cocking piece back, one finger one side, wham.

Firing hand never leaves the pistol grip.

The older I get the better I was...

No cycling necessary...remember the bolt locks to the rear on the last shot...as the the left hand slams in the mag it comes up and slaps the left side of the receiver (bolt-release) on the way to the forearm. (I always train Soldiers to slap the bolt release with the whole palm...not a finger tip or thumb...none of that granny stuff...the whole palm.) A reload swap from a mag not expended is even faster since no manipulation of the bolt release is required. (Reloading when you want as opposed to when you must.)

TranterUK · 02-09-2009, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delta13soultaker

No cycling necessary...remember the bolt locks to the rear on the last shot

Delta, you surprise me,

you were taught to change mags only after you run out? My instructors would have burst a blood vessel if we ran dry....One of ours

Oh and when you must use the paddle, yes a sharp positive slap with the heel of the hand.

graehaven · 02-09-2009, 06:28 AM

3 weeks ago, I attended a local club that meets weekly, open to anyone for a few dollars, that puts on 2 tactical situations.

the first part of the first one, was to draw and fire 2 shots in vital area in under 3 seconds, at a target facing you, but it was about 10 feet away, then you moved down the line to immediately engage 4 additional targets, each getting 2 vital hits, then reload, move down the line to engage 3 more. I was able to do the first one without a problem, and then moved on to the others. After the initial target, the rest are engage from "behind cover," so, I took those a little slower.

All in all a good scenario. A friend of mine and I are going to try to get there every other week.

The range I'm a member at would NEVER allow this type of shoot. Much more strict there.

delta13soultaker · 02-09-2009, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TranterUK

Delta, you surprise me,

you were taught to change mags only after you run out? My instructors would have burst a blood vessel if we ran dry....One of ours

Oh and when you must use the paddle, yes a sharp positive slap with the heel of the hand.

Tranter....No I wasn't taught to reload on empty...that's like fueling your vehicle on empty

Please read what I wrote again, noting the last line. My whole point was needing no cycling etc though.

Yep, hard slap of the palm against the bolt release. A hard slap on the butt of the stock will work too.

delta13soultaker · 02-09-2009, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graehaven

3 weeks ago, I attended a local club that meets weekly, open to anyone for a few dollars, that puts on 2 tactical situations.

the first part of the first one, was to draw and fire 2 shots in vital area in under 3 seconds, at a target facing you, but it was about 10 feet away, then you moved down the line to immediately engage 4 additional targets, each getting 2 vital hits, then reload, move down the line to engage 3 more. I was able to do the first one without a problem, and then moved on to the others. After the initial target, the rest are engage from "behind cover," so, I took those a little slower.

All in all a good scenario. A friend of mine and I are going to try to get there every other week.

The range I'm a member at would NEVER allow this type of shoot. Much more strict there.

Sounds fun. I'd keep going too.

TranterUK · 02-09-2009, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delta13soultaker

Please read what I wrote again, noting the last line.

Quite right Delta, I must read entries more carefully.

vytoland · 02-09-2009, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Can you draw your defensive handgun from its holster and place two rounds into a dinner plate size area at say 10 yds within say 5 seconds

tran.......this a good drill and is what i practice at the outdoor range

this is what you have got to practice until you can do it blind folded and half a sleep..............one day you may need to do just that

02-07-2009, 02:58 PM	#1
TranterUK Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 5,103	Defence accuracy I have been thinking, usually a short cut to being in trouble, loosing money, getting injured or all three. Can you draw your defensive handgun from its holster and place two rounds into a dinner plate size area at say 10 yds within say 5 seconds? For those that say no, lets go to 10 seconds, for the yes folks, how about cutting down to three seconds? Too easy? how about 15yds? This is the sort of straightforward drill I think most people will be able to do, and follow as they improve. One key is keeping the target dinner plate size, just decrease time and increase distance as you can or want to. Keep it simple, keep it real... __________________ DVC - Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas - Accuracy, Power, Speed. The light at the end of the recession tunnel IS a train coming the other way! --> Last edited by TranterUK; 02-07-2009 at 03:00 PM..

02-07-2009, 03:48 PM	#2
graehaven Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 2,853	Re: Defence accuracy At 15 yards, aren't police, and maybe the judge/jury, going to raise their eyebrows wondering why I'd engage them at that distance? We are talking defensive shooting here. Unless you're backed into a corner of course. I think 10 yards might be the ultimate limit for most defensive shooting situations. Correct me if I'm wrong. Always trying to learn. __________________ The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." - Thomas Jefferson RESISTANCE IS FEUDAL... PREPARE TO SERVE.

02-07-2009, 04:12 PM	#3
Insulation Tim Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Ohio Contributor Posts: 2,315	Re: Defence accuracy At age 62 and somewhat slower than when I was 20 , I can spot most people 15 yards and still not outrun them. Sounds like a good drill, unfortunately none of the ranges I use will allow it. __________________ Tim *"Remember the Ark was built by amateurs....Professionals built the Titanic"*

02-07-2009, 08:03 PM	#5
Vladimir Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Issaquah WA Posts: 3,558	Re: Defence accuracy My range frowns on shooting from holster ("monkey see, monkey do" reasons). I will practice when I go to my dad's department's range because then we get a private range . I don't carry defensively. I know where I am going. __________________ -JVRR меня зовут Владимир или Джеймс. Я знаю только немного русский язык (я американец, но мой пра дедушка русски). STEAM (CSS, TF2, etc): Ask me! Xbox LIVE! GT: "Vlad is Rad" PS3 PSN: "Vlad_Is_Rad"

02-08-2009, 05:20 PM	#8
delta13soultaker Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Depends on Uncle Sam's whim every 3 yrs. Posts: 2,948	Re: Defence accuracy Yep, 3 good hits at 3 feet in 3 seconds. Some people outright disregard this standard, some people even mock it, but it is a worthy standard to measure by, in my opinion. Attempting this drill a few times will demonstrate exactly for you how men trained to hit at 7 yards can miss inside an elevator with an entire magazine, as the aiming techniques for 3 ft vs 10+ ft isn't interchangeable. Crawl/Walk/Run. Even if you can't get under the 3 second window, any improvement makes you better. I have known Soldiers who got the combat reload of an M16 from standard LBV pouches down to 1 second. That is 1 second old mag on the ground, new mag inside weapon, bolt forward and firing. And 1 second is very very fast. They set that unbelievable standard by modifying their technique to waste no motion and by methodically practicing. In the beginning, slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Then fast becomes fast. __________________ Never say die! "A nation who forgets its defenders is soon forgotten itself." "A good shot must necessarily be a good man since the essence of good marksmanship is self-control and self-control is the essential quality of a good man." – Theodore Roosevelt

02-09-2009, 06:28 AM	#12
graehaven Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 2,853	Re: Defence accuracy 3 weeks ago, I attended a local club that meets weekly, open to anyone for a few dollars, that puts on 2 tactical situations. the first part of the first one, was to draw and fire 2 shots in vital area in under 3 seconds, at a target facing you, but it was about 10 feet away, then you moved down the line to immediately engage 4 additional targets, each getting 2 vital hits, then reload, move down the line to engage 3 more. I was able to do the first one without a problem, and then moved on to the others. After the initial target, the rest are engage from "behind cover," so, I took those a little slower. All in all a good scenario. A friend of mine and I are going to try to get there every other week. The range I'm a member at would NEVER allow this type of shoot. Much more strict there. __________________ The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." - Thomas Jefferson RESISTANCE IS FEUDAL... PREPARE TO SERVE.