the right tool for the job!!! - The Firearms Forum

gunlearner · 01-26-2009, 11:27 AM

ok my friends
first i would like to congratulate you on your new president!!
second
here is the deal to all of the arm forces personnel that have experience in this field and all those that can give me some advice

my company soon will start a sea farm and am in charge of the security
if was up to me i would use a 50 cal mounted in top of the guard house but sadly in ecuador i cant use nothing more than 9mm what puts me in a situation.
if i have to cover an area around the ponds (the farms is located 1.5 miles from coast) and i can only have a guard house located in the center of the ponds and these are at a distance of 15 meter in any direction and the immediate outside perimeter is at a distance of 75
the following question is for you to discuss
could i use pump action shotguns???
should i get a sub machine gun with a capacity of 30 rounds??
what should be the effective range of this submachine gun if an hk mp5k gives me only around 25 meters
my idea is to use the COLT MOD.635 9MM WITH AN EFECTIVE RANGE OF 200MTS
if i can get them authorized by the goverment of ecuador
if you were in my shoes
what type of weapon would you choose limiting your self to pistols and submachine guns 9mm and shotguns??
take care

gl

21bravo · 01-26-2009, 04:18 PM

gl...
im thinking, if i understand correctly, your "farthest shot" in a worse case scenario would be 75 meters, right? so...maybe a pump 12 gauge with a rifled slug or...the 635. but you know how the military is....in my company we have a saying "Hurry up and wait" we also call it "quick waiting"

let us know how it goes

Terry_P · 01-26-2009, 10:07 PM

I would go with the Colt if you can. Is it possible to hire guard dogs with handlers to patrol the area? If not then I would have patrols with shotguns and backup in the guardhouse armed with the Colts.

gunlearner · 01-27-2009, 07:28 AM

here is the way it is
the farm is located in the ocean and the only place you can walk is in the guard house
the rest i have asked for a jetboat and a 4 man team
what am i going against?
southamerican pirates, drug dealers and maybe coyoteros (those fu... that transport ilegal imigrants to your country), groups of people that want to take most of the fish that they can and sabotage.
those are my threats.
the pirates are the ones that am concern the most since they don´t play around simply kill you and take what they want
i can´t relly on the navy in ecuador since they don´t have the capability.
so basically i want to pray and spray at a distance of 100 meters before they come to close in a sea that is moving all the time and acuracy is hard
i do have however a radar system and a rection team
is just that i choose these weapons so you can tell me if am ok with my desition
colt mod .635 (if i can find a couple in ecuador)
9mm polimer pistols (glocks i whish) maybe taurus 24/7 why polimer due to the fact that they will be in the sea and the rust factor is big
if i can´t get the colt i need then shot guns with something special in the shell
the maximum i can get is 5 guns in total
so wish me luck and i will let you know how it goes
and if some one has the skill of an instructor in conditions like i describe above and is interested in teachin my people down here give me a price
and i will let you know if got approved
vr
Gl

delta13soultaker · 01-27-2009, 10:46 PM

G,

If you have reliable 635's yeah, good carbine. MP5K no...too short.

If you can't get 635's or full size MP5, maybe Smith & Wesson Model 15, or MAC10's. You can at least spray them down and keep them back until you gather your reaction team to flank them.

Shotguns...00 buckshot is not very good past 50-60 meters...at 75 meters you may need several shots to hit a man...000 buckshot is even worse....you are better off with #1 buckshot...it has enough pellets to at least hit a man once at 50 meters most of the time. This really leaves slugs...and you don't much want to be trying to hit men with slugs that are shooting back with AK47's and FAL's right?

Special shotgun loads...most "special" loads don't do anything better than buckshot.

If the pistols cut into your carbine/SMG numbers....don't get any. A pistol is no good against AK47's man.

If you can get posts/pickets and razor wire/concertina wire....stack them triple/3 high (2 on bottom and 1 on top like a pyramid) and anchor with barbed wire on top....make obstacles to funnel the pirates in to kill-zones. Deny him room to maneuver, make him bunch up close together to attack so you can focus mass fire on him.

Sandbag your guardhouses. Double sandbag will stop Ak47 fire.

Floodlights and flares. See if you can invest in some PVS7b for your guys...maybe red dot Aimpoint to mount gooseneck style on your 635's...with PVS-14's or PVS7b's they make a good night sight.

gunlearner · 01-29-2009, 03:47 PM

i really thankyou for the input though the situation is complicated. ecuadorian laws does not allow to use nvgs or any type o laser sights unless you are military
so basically ties my hands and of my people
pirates use all types of hi power rifles.
am getting anyway a nvg and a hpr to keep them away just in case my guys have to respond with deadly force
and the best thing is that i have a policy that shoot and kill before you get killed
as soon as i get the proyect going i will post pictures our security so you can see
vr
gl

delta13soultaker · 01-29-2009, 08:14 PM

Cool.

gunlearner · 02-03-2009, 02:03 PM

question for delta13
what is the effective range of a colt 9mm in water
if in land the effective range is 200mts
does the effective range gets shorter with the effect of open sea.
please help me with that info
gl

delta13soultaker · 02-03-2009, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunlearner

does the effective range gets shorter with the effect of open sea.
please help me with that info
gl

Yes and no.

On calm water, of course gravity isn't changing, etc.

Inside the breakwater/surf, you're in for the extra bumps and the extra wind gusts.

Past the surf you've got the rolling waves and steady wind.

Overall, you're going to have a bigger wobble zone from boat motion and wind is unforgiving to flat-base 9mm bullets.

With iron sights, reflected light from the water plays hell on windage (gets intense focusing on the post). If you've the sun low in your face too, it's twice as bad as on land.

A rifle certainly stands even more superior than your 635's out on the sea. Your main obstacles are 1. wind 2. waves 3. changing conditions.

How less effective your carbines are is going to depend a lot on how adaptive, competent, and skilled your personnel are.

p.s. Something to help you in the powercurve with repeated fire with those Colt 635's, making that wobble zone have less affect. Follow through on those Colt triggers: Notice when you fire, if you hold the trigger back, then slowly release you'll hear a loud "thunk" in the receiver.

A lot of amateurs completely release the trigger after each shot. Practice just releasing until you hear the "thunk", then get your sight picture back, and squeeze again. It takes several pounds off the Colt trigger pull. Your accuracy will improve.

Train your boys to follow through each shot by not fully releasing those triggers...it will take them practice to make a habit, but it's worth it...they'll squeeze more potential from those 635's becoming more accurate with faster shots.

gunlearner · 02-12-2009, 09:50 AM

ok talking with the gun control in ecuador they told me that i cannot use smg 9mm because the only ones to get permision to use those type of weapons are armored trucks
do to the bad news i have to rearange the type of weapons
so here is the question to all you gun masters
if i can only use pistols and shotguns and judging from the link that i will add
what do you recomend
take in consideration that guards will only work at night and i have a reaction force of 4 elements
distance between cages 15 meters
diameter of each cage 25 mts
from cage to firs outside perimeter 20 meters
second safe zone perimeter from cage 50 mts
total of cages starting from 4 to a total of 120 cages
http://www.istockphoto.com/file_clos....php?id=903149
the image above is some how like the project i have to protect from southamerican pirates!!!
take care
gl

USMC-03 · 02-12-2009, 10:07 AM

Gunlearner, what are your restrictions on rifles? Are you allowed to have centerfire caliber rifles as long as they aren't fully-automatic? Semi-automatic?

delta13soultaker · 02-12-2009, 09:19 PM

USMC, they cannot have centerfire rifles.

gunlearner, after seeing that photo, man I misjudged exactly what you're doing.

When you say 4 elements, how many men are in those elements? Or you mean just 4 men?

I'd recommend you test your shotguns at the distances you anticipate using them with different buskshot/slug loads and then decide on the best ammo for the task. (A good rule of thumb is 50% of the pellets in a 25cm circle indicates effective at that range.)

I don't exactly have my brain around your plan, whether it be a static or mobile defense.

If you're planning to maneuver on an emerging attack, it's wise to attempt fixing (pinning) them in place with one element, then flanking with another. (This requires well coordinated signals and communication to shift and lift fire before the flanking element assaults over the enemy. Motorola talk-abouts at a minimum...a back-up visual signal too. And absolutely as simple as possible.)

For a static defense, you can multiply your effect by using interlocking sectors of fire 30m in front of your men and building their cover so that they are protected from the front and forced to fire at interlocking angles. Interlocking sectors of fire forces an attack to halt to accurately return fire, causing them to lose momentum. With interlocking sectors of fire the enemy is hit in the oblique...if he shoots to his left, he is hit on the right...if he shoots to his right, he is hit on the left...if he keeps assaulting he is hit from left and right. (The temptation to place defensive positions with weapons facing straight out is strong...but doing so gives up one of the best advantages in the defense: Controlling where the attackers are killed. With interlocking sectors of fire the enemy can't even engage anything until he is in the kill zone...and covered by no less than 2 weapons.) I'm not sure this is feasible on your sea farm, but I figured I'd mention this just in case you may benefit from it.

gunlearner · 02-13-2009, 07:48 AM

thanks for the tips
the answer to your questions are
the budget that my boss is giving me are a minimum of 4 men and i have divided them into
1 control center monitoring the radar that covers from 5 meters from the CSC up to 3 km from the farm, also has a radio connected directly with my control center on the factory and a portable radio in my house for back up just in case. also the command center is equiped with a CCTV which is connected to wireless internet from where i will be able to remotely see the csc and the outside.
this other am not quite sure how will it work but teh initial idea was to purchase a jet boat (speedster 155hp 4 seats) i choose this boat because is very good in turns and if it can be use for tricks it can be used as a reaction vehicle all i have to equip the boat is good reflectors to be used when nessesary
the other idea is to build two catwalks since the csc and warehouse will be located in the center of the four cages giving me a better way to cover all four corners of the outside perimeter
also i was thinking placing a 2 million candle refrector on top of the csc or in a pole
the 3 people left will be my reaction force
so my basic idea is to monitor everything that moves around the farm and if something is detected prepare to intercep if they cross our outside perimeter
this radar will give me an advantage of praparing just in case something is moving towards the farm and the best thing is that the radar will be programed to pick up everithing at sea level
so my friend am very exited and at the same time am afraid to put my people in a greater risk with out giving them the right tools to do thier job
a few weeks ago somo fishing boat found three small fishing outboard that were left there by pirates that took their engines and left them there. i also heard stories where the pirates just tied fisherman and then threw them to sea, so this people dont f... around and trust me i wont either.
thanks for all the help you have giving me
gl

delta13soultaker · 02-14-2009, 09:14 AM

Yeah man, you don't have room to play with or you'll end up dead or visiting someone's mother to explain what went wrong.

You might benefit from everyone having commercial 26mm flare guns with white parachute flares. If you unexpectedly light things up it could confuse the bad guys, make them hurry into mistakes, or break off because of the extremely high visibility of all the attention. And...you can shoot out lights but you can't shoot out flares.

noslolo · 02-16-2009, 02:36 AM

Great advise delta, you know your stuff!

01-26-2009, 04:18 PM	#2
21bravo Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: wilkes county, nc Posts: 790	Re: the right tool for the job!!! gl... im thinking, if i understand correctly, your "farthest shot" in a worse case scenario would be 75 meters, right? so...maybe a pump 12 gauge with a rifled slug or...the 635. but you know how the military is....in my company we have a saying "Hurry up and wait" we also call it "quick waiting" let us know how it goes Last edited by 21bravo; 01-26-2009 at 10:22 PM..

01-26-2009, 10:07 PM	#3
Terry_P Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: NH Posts: 2,513	Re: the right tool for the job!!! I would go with the Colt if you can. Is it possible to hire guard dogs with handlers to patrol the area? If not then I would have patrols with shotguns and backup in the guardhouse armed with the Colts. __________________ NRA and NAHC Life "Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -Aristotle

01-27-2009, 07:28 AM	#4
gunlearner V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 73	Re: the right tool for the job!!! here is the way it is the farm is located in the ocean and the only place you can walk is in the guard house the rest i have asked for a jetboat and a 4 man team what am i going against? southamerican pirates, drug dealers and maybe coyoteros (those fu... that transport ilegal imigrants to your country), groups of people that want to take most of the fish that they can and sabotage. those are my threats. the pirates are the ones that am concern the most since they don´t play around simply kill you and take what they want i can´t relly on the navy in ecuador since they don´t have the capability. so basically i want to pray and spray at a distance of 100 meters before they come to close in a sea that is moving all the time and acuracy is hard i do have however a radar system and a rection team is just that i choose these weapons so you can tell me if am ok with my desition colt mod .635 (if i can find a couple in ecuador) 9mm polimer pistols (glocks i whish) maybe taurus 24/7 why polimer due to the fact that they will be in the sea and the rust factor is big if i can´t get the colt i need then shot guns with something special in the shell the maximum i can get is 5 guns in total so wish me luck and i will let you know how it goes and if some one has the skill of an instructor in conditions like i describe above and is interested in teachin my people down here give me a price and i will let you know if got approved vr Gl

01-27-2009, 10:46 PM	#5
delta13soultaker Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Depends on Uncle Sam's whim every 3 yrs. Posts: 2,948	Re: the right tool for the job!!! G, If you have reliable 635's yeah, good carbine. MP5K no...too short. If you can't get 635's or full size MP5, maybe Smith & Wesson Model 15, or MAC10's. You can at least spray them down and keep them back until you gather your reaction team to flank them. Shotguns...00 buckshot is not very good past 50-60 meters...at 75 meters you may need several shots to hit a man...000 buckshot is even worse....you are better off with #1 buckshot...it has enough pellets to at least hit a man once at 50 meters most of the time. This really leaves slugs...and you don't much want to be trying to hit men with slugs that are shooting back with AK47's and FAL's right? Special shotgun loads...most "special" loads don't do anything better than buckshot. If the pistols cut into your carbine/SMG numbers....don't get any. A pistol is no good against AK47's man. If you can get posts/pickets and razor wire/concertina wire....stack them triple/3 high (2 on bottom and 1 on top like a pyramid) and anchor with barbed wire on top....make obstacles to funnel the pirates in to kill-zones. Deny him room to maneuver, make him bunch up close together to attack so you can focus mass fire on him. Sandbag your guardhouses. Double sandbag will stop Ak47 fire. Floodlights and flares. See if you can invest in some PVS7b for your guys...maybe red dot Aimpoint to mount gooseneck style on your 635's...with PVS-14's or PVS7b's they make a good night sight. __________________ Never say die! "A nation who forgets its defenders is soon forgotten itself." "A good shot must necessarily be a good man since the essence of good marksmanship is self-control and self-control is the essential quality of a good man." – Theodore Roosevelt

01-29-2009, 03:47 PM	#6
gunlearner V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 73	Re: the right tool for the job!!! i really thankyou for the input though the situation is complicated. ecuadorian laws does not allow to use nvgs or any type o laser sights unless you are military so basically ties my hands and of my people pirates use all types of hi power rifles. am getting anyway a nvg and a hpr to keep them away just in case my guys have to respond with deadly force and the best thing is that i have a policy that shoot and kill before you get killed as soon as i get the proyect going i will post pictures our security so you can see vr gl

01-26-2009, 11:27 AM	#1
gunlearner V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 73	the right tool for the job!!! ok my friends first i would like to congratulate you on your new president!! second here is the deal to all of the arm forces personnel that have experience in this field and all those that can give me some advice my company soon will start a sea farm and am in charge of the security if was up to me i would use a 50 cal mounted in top of the guard house but sadly in ecuador i cant use nothing more than 9mm what puts me in a situation. if i have to cover an area around the ponds (the farms is located 1.5 miles from coast) and i can only have a guard house located in the center of the ponds and these are at a distance of 15 meter in any direction and the immediate outside perimeter is at a distance of 75 the following question is for you to discuss could i use pump action shotguns??? should i get a sub machine gun with a capacity of 30 rounds?? what should be the effective range of this submachine gun if an hk mp5k gives me only around 25 meters my idea is to use the COLT MOD.635 9MM WITH AN EFECTIVE RANGE OF 200MTS if i can get them authorized by the goverment of ecuador if you were in my shoes what type of weapon would you choose limiting your self to pistols and submachine guns 9mm and shotguns?? take care gl -->

01-29-2009, 08:14 PM	#7
delta13soultaker Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Depends on Uncle Sam's whim every 3 yrs. Posts: 2,948	Re: the right tool for the job!!! Cool. __________________ Never say die! "A nation who forgets its defenders is soon forgotten itself." "A good shot must necessarily be a good man since the essence of good marksmanship is self-control and self-control is the essential quality of a good man." – Theodore Roosevelt

02-03-2009, 02:03 PM	#8
gunlearner V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 73	Re: the right tool for the job!!! question for delta13 what is the effective range of a colt 9mm in water if in land the effective range is 200mts does the effective range gets shorter with the effect of open sea. please help me with that info gl

02-12-2009, 09:50 AM	#10
gunlearner V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 73	Re: the right tool for the job!!! ok talking with the gun control in ecuador they told me that i cannot use smg 9mm because the only ones to get permision to use those type of weapons are armored trucks do to the bad news i have to rearange the type of weapons so here is the question to all you gun masters if i can only use pistols and shotguns and judging from the link that i will add what do you recomend take in consideration that guards will only work at night and i have a reaction force of 4 elements distance between cages 15 meters diameter of each cage 25 mts from cage to firs outside perimeter 20 meters second safe zone perimeter from cage 50 mts total of cages starting from 4 to a total of 120 cages http://www.istockphoto.com/file_clos....php?id=903149 the image above is some how like the project i have to protect from southamerican pirates!!! take care gl

02-12-2009, 10:07 AM	#11
USMC-03 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Peoples Republic of the Pacific Northwest Posts: 1,825	Re: the right tool for the job!!! Gunlearner, what are your restrictions on rifles? Are you allowed to have centerfire caliber rifles as long as they aren't fully-automatic? Semi-automatic? __________________ Let not the rifles of good and free men be reforged into plowshares, but may they rest in a place of honor; ready, well oiled and God willing unused. For if the price of peace becomes licking the boots of tyrants, then "To Arms!" I say, and may the fortunes of war smile upon patriots. - Fortes Fortuna Javat -

02-12-2009, 09:19 PM	#12
delta13soultaker Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Depends on Uncle Sam's whim every 3 yrs. Posts: 2,948	Re: the right tool for the job!!! USMC, they cannot have centerfire rifles. gunlearner, after seeing that photo, man I misjudged exactly what you're doing. When you say 4 elements, how many men are in those elements? Or you mean just 4 men? I'd recommend you test your shotguns at the distances you anticipate using them with different buskshot/slug loads and then decide on the best ammo for the task. (A good rule of thumb is 50% of the pellets in a 25cm circle indicates effective at that range.) I don't exactly have my brain around your plan, whether it be a static or mobile defense. If you're planning to maneuver on an emerging attack, it's wise to attempt fixing (pinning) them in place with one element, then flanking with another. (This requires well coordinated signals and communication to shift and lift fire before the flanking element assaults over the enemy. Motorola talk-abouts at a minimum...a back-up visual signal too. And absolutely as simple as possible.) For a static defense, you can multiply your effect by using interlocking sectors of fire 30m in front of your men and building their cover so that they are protected from the front and forced to fire at interlocking angles. Interlocking sectors of fire forces an attack to halt to accurately return fire, causing them to lose momentum. With interlocking sectors of fire the enemy is hit in the oblique...if he shoots to his left, he is hit on the right...if he shoots to his right, he is hit on the left...if he keeps assaulting he is hit from left and right. (The temptation to place defensive positions with weapons facing straight out is strong...but doing so gives up one of the best advantages in the defense: Controlling where the attackers are killed. With interlocking sectors of fire the enemy can't even engage anything until he is in the kill zone...and covered by no less than 2 weapons.) I'm not sure this is feasible on your sea farm, but I figured I'd mention this just in case you may benefit from it. __________________ Never say die! "A nation who forgets its defenders is soon forgotten itself." "A good shot must necessarily be a good man since the essence of good marksmanship is self-control and self-control is the essential quality of a good man." – Theodore Roosevelt Last edited by delta13soultaker; 02-12-2009 at 09:23 PM..

02-13-2009, 07:48 AM	#13
gunlearner V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 73	Re: the right tool for the job!!! thanks for the tips the answer to your questions are the budget that my boss is giving me are a minimum of 4 men and i have divided them into 1 control center monitoring the radar that covers from 5 meters from the CSC up to 3 km from the farm, also has a radio connected directly with my control center on the factory and a portable radio in my house for back up just in case. also the command center is equiped with a CCTV which is connected to wireless internet from where i will be able to remotely see the csc and the outside. this other am not quite sure how will it work but teh initial idea was to purchase a jet boat (speedster 155hp 4 seats) i choose this boat because is very good in turns and if it can be use for tricks it can be used as a reaction vehicle all i have to equip the boat is good reflectors to be used when nessesary the other idea is to build two catwalks since the csc and warehouse will be located in the center of the four cages giving me a better way to cover all four corners of the outside perimeter also i was thinking placing a 2 million candle refrector on top of the csc or in a pole the 3 people left will be my reaction force so my basic idea is to monitor everything that moves around the farm and if something is detected prepare to intercep if they cross our outside perimeter this radar will give me an advantage of praparing just in case something is moving towards the farm and the best thing is that the radar will be programed to pick up everithing at sea level so my friend am very exited and at the same time am afraid to put my people in a greater risk with out giving them the right tools to do thier job a few weeks ago somo fishing boat found three small fishing outboard that were left there by pirates that took their engines and left them there. i also heard stories where the pirates just tied fisherman and then threw them to sea, so this people dont f... around and trust me i wont either. thanks for all the help you have giving me gl

02-14-2009, 09:14 AM	#14
delta13soultaker Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Depends on Uncle Sam's whim every 3 yrs. Posts: 2,948	Re: the right tool for the job!!! Yeah man, you don't have room to play with or you'll end up dead or visiting someone's mother to explain what went wrong. You might benefit from everyone having commercial 26mm flare guns with white parachute flares. If you unexpectedly light things up it could confuse the bad guys, make them hurry into mistakes, or break off because of the extremely high visibility of all the attention. And...you can shoot out lights but you can't shoot out flares. __________________ Never say die! "A nation who forgets its defenders is soon forgotten itself." "A good shot must necessarily be a good man since the essence of good marksmanship is self-control and self-control is the essential quality of a good man." – Theodore Roosevelt

02-16-2009, 02:36 AM	#15
noslolo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Johnstown PA Posts: 1,559	Re: the right tool for the job!!! Great advise delta, you know your stuff! __________________ I'm a heck of a "obesito illegitimo"