Cartridge Chamberings?

[johnlives4christ]

okay, i have some dumb questions.... i know you can shoot a 22 short or long in a long rifle gun.... and i know you cant shoot a 22 long rifle in a 22wmr.

you can put 38's in a 357. well how about 38 short/long colts out of a 357 or 38 special?

are there any other calibers that you can do this with. i know you can do 44 special in a 44 mag, what about 44 mag in a 454?

im just curious on this subject so anyone that knows anything about it please inform.

thanks
~john

[pkcgbifaid]

This guy has a pretty complete list for many cartridges.

http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/cartridge_interchange.html

[muddober]

John, you CAN shoot 38 short or long Colts in a 38 special or 357 mag because all measure .357 but never the other way around. You cannot shoot 44 Mag which measures .429 in what I am assuming you mean a 454 Casull and the answer is NO.

Ron

[Alpo]

The above link does not, to my mind, answer the question. It's more of a "name interchangeability chart". For example - 380 = 9mm Browning Short = 9mm Corto = 9mm Kurz = 9x17mm = 380 ACP. All different names for the same cartridge.

What was asked, if I read it correctly, was "what can you safely shoot in there, that the gun was not chambered for?"

22 Short in a 22 Long. Both of them in 22 Long Rifle.

32 S&W in a 32 S&W Long. Both of them in 32 H&R. All three in 327 Federal.

32 ACP in a 32 S&W Long, 32 H&R or 327 Federal. It should NOT be fired in a 32 S&W. It is too long and too powerful. In both of my 32 S&Ws it will not chamber, but it might in some of the cheaper guns. If it will chamber, and you fire it, you can severely damage your gun.

32 Colt in a 32 Long Colt.

32 Colt New Police is another name for 32 S&W Long, and the ammo is interchangeable. It is NOT the same as 32 Colt or 32 Long Colt.

38 Colt in 38 Long Colt. Both in 38 Special. All three in 357 Magnum. All four in 357 Maximum. All five in 357 Supermag.

38 Colt New Police is another name for 38 S&W. They are interchangeable, but neither will work in a 38 Special gun. It is not the same as 38 Colt.

41 Colt in a 41 Long Colt.

44 Russian in 44 Special. Both in 44 Magnum. All three in 454 Supermag (only chambered in Dan Wesson guns, if I remember right).

45 Colt in a 454 Casull. Both in a 460 S&W.

480 Ruger in a 475 Linebaugh.

45/70 in a 45/90. Both in a 45/110.

I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones I could think of.

Notice that I listed them all in an order. Short to long. You can go up, but you can't go down. You can shoot 44 Russian in a 454 Supermag, but you cannot shoot 454 Supermag in a 44 Russian.

[pkcgbifaid]

Alpo, thanks for the time you took putting it together! The listed link has both the name interchangablility AND the cartridge interchangability, but I admit it is not nearly as well layed out as what you put together here, nor is it as complete.

[johnlives4christ]

Originally Posted by Alpo

32 ACP in a 32 S&W Long, 32 H&R or 327 Federal. It should NOT be fired in a 32 S&W. It is too long and too powerful. In both of my 32 S&Ws it will not chamber, but it might in some of the cheaper guns. If it will chamber, and you fire it, you can severely damage your gun.
.

hello alpo, thank you and everyone else for trying to help in my question. i guess i should have been a little more thorough as to my question.

the reason it sparked my insterest was that i have an old 38 long colt, and it fit fine in my 357, and i knew it was much less powerful, but i didnt know about things like diameter so i thought it might bust a casing or something.

concerning the quote , i wanted to say? how can you shoot a 32ACP in a 32 s&w long? the reason i ask is, if i recall correctly the 32 S&W is a rimmed cartridge, while the 32 acp is a Semi rimmed or rimless as it's sometimes called.

one thing i was wondering about is if i could shoot 357 mag in a 357 maximum. i haven't ever seen a gun in 357 max, but i know ruger made the blackhawk in it for a while. and knowing i can use the 357 in it, should i ever run across one, it will greatly persuade me to try and get it.

the reason i had asked about the 454 casull was that i have considered a ruger redhawk in that chambering and was wondering if there was anything that was cheaper to shoot that i could shoot through it. 45 colt is quite a bit cheaper then 454

i think this knowledge of cartridge interchangability is important, but it is something that is relatively obscure in the shooting world (atleast mine).

~john

[Alpo]

Originally Posted by johnlives4christ

concerning the quote , i wanted to say? how can you shoot a 32ACP in a 32 s&w long? the reason i ask is, if i recall correctly the 32 S&W is a rimmed cartridge, while the 32 acp is a Semi rimmed or rimless as it's sometimes called.
~john

When the all-wise JMB invented the 25 auto and the 32 auto, he intended for them to headspace on the mouth. He found that they were too small in diameter to reliably do so, however. But, knowing that a rimmed cartridge would cause feeding problems in a stacked magazine, he came up with one of his genius ideas. Semi-rimmed. It had just enough rim to catch the mouth of the chamber (providing reliable headspacing) while not getting "rim-locked" in the magazine (providing reliable feeding). The 25 needed it. The 32 needed it. And he put it on the 38 (that's 38 ACP, not to be confused with 380 ACP), which did not need it. When he made the 380, he made it rimless, because he had found out (from the 38 ACP) that it was unneccessary.

Because of the semi-rim, the 32 ACP will work in the 32 revolvers. There is enough rim to catch hold of the chamber mouths.

The 38 ACP (by the way) was later hot-rodded and renamed the 38 Super. So you can shoot 38 ACP (if you can find the obselete expensive things) in your 38 Super automatic. It probably won't have enough power to operate the slide, but it will shoot in it. Putting 38 Super ammo in a 38 ACP pistol (where it will fit perfectly) however, will cause you mass pain as your pistol disintegrates in your hand.

[cycloneman]

i have shot 40's in my 10mm autos.

[RJay]

I didn't see this adressed ( from the OP ) Yes, you can fire a 22 LR in a 22 magium, but you are asking for trouble. The case will split and there is the possibily of blowback. It is not recommened.

[JLA]

Originally Posted by Alpo

The above link does not, to my mind, answer the question. It's more of a "name interchangeability chart". For example - 380 = 9mm Browning Short = 9mm Corto = 9mm Kurz = 9x17mm = 380 ACP. All different names for the same cartridge.

What was asked, if I read it correctly, was "what can you safely shoot in there, that the gun was not chambered for?"

22 Short in a 22 Long. Both of them in 22 Long Rifle.

32 S&W in a 32 S&W Long. Both of them in 32 H&R. All three in 327 Federal.

32 ACP in a 32 S&W Long, 32 H&R or 327 Federal. It should NOT be fired in a 32 S&W. It is too long and too powerful. In both of my 32 S&Ws it will not chamber, but it might in some of the cheaper guns. If it will chamber, and you fire it, you can severely damage your gun.

32 Colt in a 32 Long Colt.

32 Colt New Police is another name for 32 S&W Long, and the ammo is interchangeable. It is NOT the same as 32 Colt or 32 Long Colt.

38 Colt in 38 Long Colt. Both in 38 Special. All three in 357 Magnum. All four in 357 Maximum. All five in 357 Supermag.

38 Colt New Police is another name for 38 S&W. They are interchangeable, but neither will work in a 38 Special gun. It is not the same as 38 Colt.

41 Colt in a 41 Long Colt.

44 Russian in 44 Special. Both in 44 Magnum. All three in 454 Supermag (only chambered in Dan Wesson guns, if I remember right).

45 Colt in a 454 Casull. Both in a 460 S&W.

480 Ruger in a 475 Linebaugh.

45/70 in a 45/90. Both in a 45/110.

I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones I could think of.

Notice that I listed them all in an order. Short to long. You can go up, but you can't go down. You can shoot 44 Russian in a 454 Supermag, but you cannot shoot 454 Supermag in a 44 Russian.

very well said Alpo, I must also add to this fine information some cartridge interchangeability...

The cartridge groups listed in groups are all interchangeable within groups so long as the markings on the firearm match at least one of the cartridge names listed...

.22 rem. jet/.22 jet/ .22 rem. centerfire mag.

.223 rem/ 5.56mm/ 5.56X45/ 5.56 Nato

.22 savage hi-power/ 5.6X52mmR

25-20/ 25-20 wcf/ .25-20 win./ 25-20 rem./ .25-20 marlin/ .25 wcf (***)
*** these cartridges are not interchangeable with the .25-20 single shot***

6mm rem./ .244 rem.

.25acp/ .25 auto/ 6.35 browning

.250 savage/ .250-3000

.257 roberts/ .257 rem.

7mm mauser/ 7X57

.280 rem/ 7mm rem exp.

30-30 win/ .30-30 savage/ .30-30 marlin/ .30 wcf

7.62X39/ 7.92mm russian short/ 7.62mm M43

7.62mm russian long/ 7.62X54R

.30-06/ .30 M2/ .30-06 govt./ .30-06 sprg./ .30 G 1906/ 7.62X63mm

.30-40 krag/ .30 army

.308 win/ .308 wcf/ 7.62 nato/ 7.62X51mm

.30 mauser pistol/ 7.63mm mauser/ 7.62X25mm/ 7.62mm type P

.30 mauser rifle/ .30 belgian mauser/ 7.65mm argentine

.32 auto/ .32 acp/ 7.65mm auto/ 7.65 browning

.32 s&w long/ .32 colt new police/ .32 colt police positive

.32-20/ .32 wcf

.303 brit/ 7.7X58R/ 7.7 jap rimmed

7.7mm jap/ 7.7mm arisaka/ .31 jap/ .30 jap

8mm mauser/ 8X57/ 7.92X57/ 7.9 mauser

8mm lebel/ 8X51 R french

9mm luger/ 9mm parabellum/ 9X19/ 9mm auto

.380 auto/ .380 acp/ 9mm short (corto/kurz)/ 9mm browning

.38 spec./ .38 colt spec./ .38 s&w spec.

.38 s&w/ .38 colt new police/ .380 welby/ .380 revolver mk. 1/ .38-200

.38-40/ .38 wcf

.44-40/ .44 wcf/ .44 win./ .44 marlin/ .44 rem.

.45 auto/ .45 acp/ 11.25mm colt/ .45 cal. M1911

.45-70/ .45-70 govt./ .45-70 win/ .45-70 marlin/ .45-70-405

once again, these cartridge groups listed above represent interchangeability within groups. Some of the nomenclature listed represents obsolete cartridges and/or foriegn manufacture not intended for the american market. Its the shooters responsibilty to ensure the markings on his/her firearm match that of the ammunition intended for use.

[JLA]

hope the info above helps clarify the purpose of the web-link listed above, all information was taken from my cartridge interchangeablilty chart hanging on my wall over my loading desk...

[Alpo]

Originally Posted by cycloneman

i have shot 40's in my 10mm autos.

Consistently? Magazine after magazine after magazine? I can think of two ways that a 40 would fire in a 10mm.

Either it was seated all the way forward, so that the round was headspacing on the case mouth, leaving a massive amount of space behind the case, and the firing pin was long enough to reach over that distance and fire the round. This would batter the case and be hard on the gun.

Or it was held back against the bolt face by the extractor hook. This should fire, but I wouldn't think it would have the force to work the slide.

I fired a 380 in a 40 S&W one time. One time. A friend of mine fired 5 357s in my Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 magnum, once. Once.

[johnlives4christ]

well since i know that the 357 max would safely shoot 357 mag... and i know they made ruger blackhawks in 357max. what would be the dangers of putting 357 max in my 357 chambered blackhawk? the gun would be strong enough to handle it , and the round indexes off the rim, not the shoulder. any thoughts on this one?

~john

[Alpo]

357 Maximum is too long to chamber in a 357 Magnum chamber. That was done intentionally, to prevent people doing something stupid like putting a 50,000 psi cartridge in a gun designed for 35000 psi cartridges.

What part of this are you having trouble understanding? >Notice that I listed them all in an order. Short to long. You can go up, but you can't go down. You can shoot 44 Russian in a 454 Supermag, but you cannot shoot 454 Supermag in a 44 Russian.<

[JLA]

Easy brother. Lets try not to discourage the less learned from continuing thier search to better understand something. I know its frustrating when someone doesnt see or understand why things work the way they do, but with time, patience, and good information most will learn to understand. John, hes right, firearms are chambered for a specific cartridge, not many cartridges. Some cartridge chambers permit the use of SHORTER cartridges of the same caliber (bullet size) but never longer ones, and ALL chambers that do permit the use of shorter cartridges are designed to headspace on the RIM of the cartridge. The reason longer chambers will accept shorter cartridges, is because when a chamber is reamed into a barrel it is stepped up at the end of the chamber, this stepped up area is called the throat of the barrel and is the spot the case stops at and the bullet starts at. the reason a .357 max can chamber and safely fire a .357 mag. and a .38 spec. is because they all utilize a .357 bore diameter and shoot the same diameter bullets. The .357 mag and the .38 spec. are not anywhere close to touching the throat, and since the cartridge headspaces off the rim you can close the action and fire the cartridge SAFELY, but not always accurately. The .357 maximum cartridge is nearly twice as long as a .357 magnum cartridge, and the .38 special cartridge is 1/10 of an inch shorter than the .357 magnum cartridge. This in a perfect example of the cartridge designers desire to insulate himself from a lawsuit. long cartridges simply will not chamber in a short chamber. Dont be foolish with your firearms, I have seen many needlessly destroyed firearms im my short time as a gunsmith. If you want to shoot .454 casulls, buy a .454 casull pistol. Save yourself some embarassment at the very least. So far all of the owners of the destroyed guns weren't hurt and its funny to me that all of them claim to have gotten it back from a buddy that way

[cycloneman]

Originally Posted by Alpo

Consistently? Magazine after magazine after magazine? I can think of two ways that a 40 would fire in a 10mm.

Either it was seated all the way forward, so that the round was headspacing on the case mouth, leaving a massive amount of space behind the case, and the firing pin was long enough to reach over that distance and fire the round. This would batter the case and be hard on the gun.

Or it was held back against the bolt face by the extractor hook. This should fire, but I wouldn't think it would have the force to work the slide.

I fired a 380 in a 40 S&W one time. One time. A friend of mine fired 5 357s in my Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 magnum, once. Once.

no not consistantly. but i wanted to try and see if my 1076 would and it does shoot .40's. i may have shot better than half a box out of it. good to know if your in a pinch. You are also correct that not all of the rounds cycled but most did. if you had a 610 i imagine you could shoot .40's all day long out of it.

[Lunicy]

My money says The extractor will hold the round. BTW The extractor on a .40s&w will hold a 9mm. It will fire a 9mm.

(It wasn't mine, and I tried to explain to the DIC.. I mean gentleman that it wasn't a good idea. He informed me that he had been doing it for a long time and it's fine.)

I watched him do it a few times then shook my head and left. Something about hot gases blowing back into my face didn't appeal to me.

[johnlives4christ]

thanks everyone for helping me to better understand what i can and cannot do.

i got another dumb question.... dont get all upset at me either for asking. since i have a blackhawk in 357 and i know they chambered blackhawks for 357 max... would it be safe to handload 357 mag cartridges to the pressures of the 357 max? would the gun take it? would the casings crack or something?

okay... now, im not into reloading, but i am looking into it... and i always ask a bunch of dumb questions before i get into anything new... or before i do anything stupid lol. thats why im here.
~john

[JLA]

NO. and for several reasons. .357 mag brass is suited to the pressures intended for the .357 magnum. if you up the ante 20,000 psi you would likely melt the brass or have a severe blowout at the primer pocket. or melt the brass and have a blowout and extrude the hot metal everywhere. And thats saying the weapon will indeed hold up to the pressures. It very well may not. Just because ruger made a blackhawk in .357 max at one time doesnt mean they hold all thier revolvers to the same strength requirements. In my opinion the .357 max is better suited to rifles because of the velocity and pressure it produces. Like i have advised before, if you want .357 max performance trade your .357 mag. in and find a .357 max revolver. I understand the way you percieve this. It wasnt all that long ago that I too thought bigger was better etc. etc. etc. But it really is quite the contrary. Rest assured the .357 mag will do everything it is intended to do quite efficiently, that is why it has outlived the .357 max. I would suggest you take your .357 mag afield with full power hunting loads and kill a hog or a deer, cut him open afterwards and inspect the damage its capable of, it really is quite impressive for such a small cartridge...

[johnlives4christ]

thanks jla for answering my questions. i have some basic knowledge of firearms and some of firearms history, but this kind of detailed knowledge eludes me because i dont have any shooting buddies that have any knowledge of firearms. for some reason i was thinking that because they once chambered the blackhawk for the 357 max i could load 357 to that pressure. but i see now why that theory is wrong. i also see that, even though i know a little bit about firearms, i need to know much more. i want to learn everything there is to know about them honestly, i've been facinated with guns ever since i was 17 and my parents wouldnt let me have a 22 rifle... when i turned 18 i bought one against their will and have been facinated with them ever since.

~john

[Alpo]

I know a feller who had a model 24 Smith, 44 special. He wanted to turn it into a 44 magnum. "No problem. Just get a chamber reamer and make the chambers a little longer, so the magnums will fit. After all, that's the only difference. They're both Smith and Wesson N frames, right?"

No. Smith is in the business to make money. That means they are not going to spend more than they need to. 44 Special has a pressure of around 15,000 psi, so they heat treat the cylinder to take, maybe 20,000 psi pressure. There is no need to make it any stronger. You put 44 magnums, that run around 35,000 psi, in it and it explodes when you shoot it. If you want a 44 magnum, buy a 44 magnum.

"Oh. Okay, that makes sense. Well, how's this idea? I picked up a model 27 cylinder in trade. 357 runs with the same pressures that 44 magnum does. I take the 357 cylinder and have it bored out to 44 magnum? It's an N frame magnum cylinder, so it should be fine, right?"

No. One of the reasons the 357 cylinder will take the pressure is the amount of metal around the holes. Drill that 3/8 inch chamber hole out to 15/32 and you have less metal around the hole. Now it won't take 35,000 psi pressures. 44 magnum cylinders are treated differently than 357 cylinders. If you want a 44 magnum, buy a 44 magnum.

"So how's this? I'll get a 44 magnum cylinder. That's made to take the 35,000 psi pressure, even with the big holes. I'll slap that in my 24, and I'll be good to go. N frame is an N frame, right?"

No. Back to the money thing. Smith heat treated the 24's frame to take the pounding of firing 44 specials. Start shooting 44 magnums in it and even though the cylinder will hold together, the frame will start to stretch. If you want a 44 magnum, buy 44 magnum.

Haven't seem him for a while. Hope he either got over his need for a 44 magnum, or bought a 44 magnum, instead of trying to make one of his other guns do what it wasn't designed to do.

[johnlives4christ]

it never occured to me that the metal would be differant in such situations. thats a good point to make alpo. i have heard about people taking nef handi rifles and reaming them out longer to take bigger calibers of the same diameter. do you think this idea would be foolish as well?

[Alpo]

Depends. Now, you can get one of them NEFs in 308, and then later get a 12 gauge barrel to put on it. No problem with that. That receiver built to take 50,000 psi pressures will love that 14,000 psi shotgun. Some folks say you can get one made for a shotgun and put a rifle barrel on it. That's asking for a hospital stay, in my opinion.

Now, if you took that same 308 rifle barrel, and reamed it out to 30/06 (assuming there is enough metal in the "chamber section" of the barrel to ream that far), then you should be all right, as 308 and 30/06 are both the same diameter case and approximately the same pressure load. If you tried to ream it to 300 Weatherby Magnum, on the other hand, you're asking for trouble. Same if you tried to ream a 45/70 to 458 Win Mag. Same size bullet, but you are probably gonna lose an eye when that thing blows up.

[johnlives4christ]

thanks for the advise

[JLA]

check out hubel458's "12 ga. FH" thread... its here in the ammo forum somewheres. That guy has put some scary stuff down the tube of a handi rifle. seems those handi rifles and cockroaches are going to be the only survivors of the next nuclear explosion...