"Guns in Bar" bill vetoed - TN - The Firearms Forum

mrkirker · 05-29-2009, 10:11 AM

NASHVILLE - With a group of law enforcement officers and district attorneys general standing behind him, Gov. Phil Bredesen on Thursday vetoed a bill that he said violates a basic safety premise: "Guns and alcohol don't mix."

The bill in question, HB962, would allow handgun permit holders to take their weapons into establishments that serve alcoholic beverages. It passed the House and Senate by lopsided margins.

"The notion that this bill would permit one to carry a concealed weapon into a crowded bar at midnight on a Saturday night defies common sense, and I cannot sign such a measure into law," Bredesen said in a veto message signed before the applauding audience of police officers and prosecutors.

Rep. Curry Todd, R-Collierville, who sponsored the bill in the House, said he would move promptly to override the veto next week. Only a simple majority of 50 votes in the House and 17 in the Senate is needed to override.

The bill passed the House 66-23 in its final version. The Senate approved the measure in a 26-7 vote.

"I think they'll stick," said Todd of those backing the bill with their votes.

Sen. Doug Jackson, D-Dickson, who sponsored the bill in the Senate, said he would review the governor's comments before taking action because "I owe him that much respect." But he strongly defended the measure.

"Realistically, the Legislature has given this a great deal of time and thought and did this without passion or emotion. We did this based on facts," Jackson said. "What the facts show is that the law-abiding citizen who is permitted and armed is not a threat.

"It's the bad guys who are a threat," he said, adding that such people already ignore the law.

The senator also noted that permit holders, while allowed to enter alcohol-serving establishments under the bill, are still prohibited from drinking when carrying guns.

This is the sixth veto of Bredesen's tenure as governor. None of his previous vetoes has been overridden, but none of them involved such a high-profile issue.

Knoxville Police Chief Sterling P. Owen IV was on hand for Bredesen's news conference and signing of the veto message, along with police chiefs of Nashville, Memphis and Chattanooga. Owen is currently president of the Tennessee Association of Chiefs of Police, which was holding a meeting in Nashville on Thursday.

"This is a matter of safety for officers and citizen safety," Owen said.

Memphis Chief Larry Goodwin referred to two recent killings in Memphis where the alleged killers held handgun carry permits:

"In Memphis, we're keeping score. It's handgun permit holders two, unarmed citizens zero," he said.

Bredesen acknowledged there is "the great potential, probably the likelihood" that his veto will be overridden, but said he felt obliged to try to get legislators to "rethink" their support of the bill.

"He'll probably get overridden," said House Speaker Kent Williams, who voted for the bill.

"I hate to vote against the governor on any issue, but this passed by a pretty large majority," Williams said. "The governor is doing what he feels he needs to do. He's entitled to his opinion. It counts almost as much as the Legislature's (opinion)."

While I hate to think of any CCW being denied, I really can't fault the governor's thought process on this one.
Alcohol reduces judgement.
Carrying a firearm requires judgement.
Guns and booze don't mix well, at all.

armedandsafe · 05-29-2009, 12:16 PM

Quote:

"In Memphis, we're keeping score. It's handgun permit holders two, unarmed citizens zero," he said.

DUUUUUH

Pops

45nut · 05-29-2009, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrkirker

"It's the bad guys who are a threat," he said, adding that such people already ignore the law.

The senator also noted that permit holders, while allowed to enter alcohol-serving establishments under the bill, are still prohibited from drinking when carrying guns.

"This is a matter of safety for officers and citizen safety," Owen said.

Memphis Chief Larry Goodwin referred to two recent killings in Memphis where the alleged killers held handgun carry permits:

"In Memphis, we're keeping score. It's handgun permit holders two, unarmed citizens zero," he said.

It's odd that the Police Chiefs should think that concealed carry permit holders are somehow the bad guys here. By leaving out the facts on these 2 cases, you'd think that these were blatant murders instead of a citizen refusing to be a victim and defending their person or property.

All this makes legal is for the permit holders to ENTER the establishment, not to drink once in there. It's a matter of convenience for the holders I would think. It's not to allow permit holders to get roaring drunk and shoot up the bar with their hog leg.

Common sense soon leaves a Chief of Police's brain because by then they are more Politician than Policeman, IMHO.

pinecone70 · 05-29-2009, 12:50 PM

I'd like to think that the citizens that are responsible enough to go through the process of acquiring a concealed carry permit are not the type that would go out and cause trouble. I could be wrong though.

mrkirker · 05-29-2009, 12:52 PM

All this makes legal is for the permit holders to ENTER the establishment, not to drink once in there.
Com'on 45, a fellow walks into a bar, and doesn't drink anything. I guess he's just heading in there for the beer nuts on the bar, LOL!

Agreed, the common thought with LEO's is "We should be the only one's armed!"

45nut · 05-29-2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrkirker

All this makes legal is for the permit holders to ENTER the establishment, not to drink once in there.
Com'on 45, a fellow walks into a bar, and doesn't drink anything. I guess he's just heading in there for the beer nuts on the bar, LOL!

Agreed, the common thought with LEO's is "We should be the only one's armed!"

I for one am a light social drinker and most times I meet my buddy at Boston's (a fancy but relatively tasteless pizza parlor) it is to sit in the bar and smoke because it's the only PC approved place to enjoy that nasty habit.

He drinks two huge Shiner Bocks on tap and I will drink diet coke or 1 regular Shiner and water. So not all guys in the bar are there for the booze.

Personally I am a very occasional beer drinker and I've never gone to a bar to get drunk in my life. I can't justify the high cost of drinking in a bar. I can get a whole bottle of good bourbon for the cost of 2 or 3 on the rocks in a bar. I actually prefer a good bourbon beside the campfire after spicy venison soup or chili. Occasionally I'll have one at home, but the cost of the wife's scorn makes me very choosy as to when I do that.

Give me better warning next time you're coming to Texas and we'll get together and kill something.

Old Guy · 05-29-2009, 05:59 PM

I replied to the editor of the Memphis Fox station regarding a horrible report on this issue a couple of weeks ago. The issue is not drinking, which is illegal for any of us with concealed carry permits anyway while we are carrying. The issue is there is some really great food in some of those places that you cannot find anywhere else. Should I not have the same right to protect myself if some wacko shows up brandishing a gun as I have anywhere else? In the mean time, I can enjoy my food and fellowship and not have a single alcoholic beverage.

Hopefully the legislature will override the veto. And, being originally from Tennessee, you can discount Memphis anyway because it has for years been a cesspool for drugs and crime, mostly among the "minorities".

Old Guy

ponycar17 · 05-29-2009, 06:37 PM

I'm forwarding this on to some in-laws who have connections with Bredesen.

The point being missed entirely here is that most nicer restaurants serve alcohol and have bars on their premises. This law, as I understand it, was to allow diners the opportunity to carry a concealed weapon into these establishments legally if they do not consume alcohol. Since concealed carry permit holders are law-abiding citizens, per their impeccable record required to obtain the permit, it only stands to reason that they would also refrain from consuming alcohol if the law required as much to lawfully carry into the establishments referred to in the bill. I could be totally wrong...

I have the same problem in SC, as most nicer restaurants offer the purchase of alcohol. I have to leave my pistol in the car even if I have no intention of purchasing alcohol. That gets annoying rather quickly...

jacksonco · 05-31-2009, 07:53 AM

The way I see it in the Bars there are already a lot of guns and knives in those places. At least they are in my area. Even with the law in TN you can bet there are a fair share of guns in those establishments.

Now to prevent a person from carrying into an eatery because they serve booze is a crime. Make us leave our weapons locked in the car unsecured and waiting for a theif to come along and take it. Your Governor's vetoe of that bill is a slap in the face of all law abiding citizens.

Sorry it is early, just outa bed, and I am ramblin on and not to sensefull.

Trouble 45-70 · 05-31-2009, 10:03 AM

There are many bad guys who like to hit the parking lots of nice restaurants for prosperous patrons. Hit and run. Too often they hit and shoot. I'm impressed that the Gov. of Tenn. is looking out for his constituants. I thought Gov. Bredisons constituants were the patrons of the restaurants. Sorry, I must have been mistaken, he is trying to protect the brutal class.

bcj1755 · 05-31-2009, 02:40 PM

NC has the same law on the books for concealed carry. No firearms in anyplace that serves alcohol for consumption on premesis. Even if the gun owner is not drinking. So, I just avoid going to places that serve booze. NC wants to keep me from protecting myself in those places, I can avoid paying sales tax to NC in those places. But then, I try to avoid going anyplace where I"m not allowed to carry.

mrkirker · 06-01-2009, 11:32 AM

Give me better warning next time you're coming to Texas and we'll get together and kill something.

Roger, that!

pawn · 06-01-2009, 01:09 PM

my understanding is that there is enough support to over-ride the veto.

jim summers · 06-01-2009, 01:31 PM

The Gov was right to veto this bill, to allow one to carry a weapon into an establishment that is by the very nature designed to consume alcohol and sometimes large quantities is a tragedy waiting to happen.
Even people with good common sense can get their buttons pushed then common sense takes a back seat and the need to right a wrong takes center stage, especially when you have been disrespected in a place full of people watching. Just my thoughts on the issue.

Bill DeShivs · 06-01-2009, 01:50 PM

Mr. Summers-
Whether the bill is passed or not, it is illegal to drink while carrying in Tenn. If the carrier is not drinking it would be very hard for him to "consume alcohol" in any quantity.

Larry Godwin is a political appointee of a very controversial mayor. He is a good appointee-he does what he is told. Memphis' current mayor is hell bent on destroying the city, and has done a very good job so far. The mayor is a confirmed racist and would like to run anyone who is not black from the city.

Marlin T · 06-01-2009, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim summers

The Gov was right to veto this bill, to allow one to carry a weapon into an establishment that is by the very nature designed to consume alcohol ...

Oh ya, what about WalMart, Sams Club or 7/11?
It's all about what kind of liquor licences is posted on the wall, not the arrangement of the chairs.

Trouble 45-70 · 06-01-2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

Mr. Summers-
Whether the bill is passed or not, it is illegal to drink while carrying in Tenn. If the carrier is not drinking it would be very hard for him to "consume alcohol" in any quantity.

Larry Godwin is a political appointee of a very controversial mayor. He is a good appointee-he does what he is told. Memphis' current mayor is hell bent on destroying the city, and has done a very good job so far. The mayor is a confirmed racist and would like to run anyone who is not black from the city.

Thats the way it looks to me.

mrkirker · 06-01-2009, 05:28 PM

Wal-mart, 711, and Sam's Club, have on-site consumption? Well, that sure explains how some of the employees behave!

ponycar17 · 06-01-2009, 09:14 PM

This kind of logic would seemingly dictate that you should either store all your firearms outside your home or do all your drinking outside; one or the other....

In all honesty, this bill is misunderstood. Allowing non-drinking patrons of nicer restaurants to carry their lawful concealed weapon just makes sense. My wife and I have two restaurants we frequent that are mainly known for their bars but have great food in the dining area. One serves some great pizza and the other serves hamburgers that are well-known locally. How would the presence of a concealed weapon in those places present an elevated hazard to anyone if carried by non-consuming patrons? I see no difference in this case than carry into a grocery store.

Also, how would a law prohibiting carry into these establishments be any more effective than the law already in place prohibiting carry by someone under the influence of alcohol? It would seem to me that if a person has intent to break one law, then the other additional law doesn't carry any more prevention capability.

05-29-2009, 10:11 AM	#1
mrkirker Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3,067	"Guns in Bar" bill vetoed - TN NASHVILLE - With a group of law enforcement officers and district attorneys general standing behind him, Gov. Phil Bredesen on Thursday vetoed a bill that he said violates a basic safety premise: "Guns and alcohol don't mix." The bill in question, HB962, would allow handgun permit holders to take their weapons into establishments that serve alcoholic beverages. It passed the House and Senate by lopsided margins. "The notion that this bill would permit one to carry a concealed weapon into a crowded bar at midnight on a Saturday night defies common sense, and I cannot sign such a measure into law," Bredesen said in a veto message signed before the applauding audience of police officers and prosecutors. Rep. Curry Todd, R-Collierville, who sponsored the bill in the House, said he would move promptly to override the veto next week. Only a simple majority of 50 votes in the House and 17 in the Senate is needed to override. The bill passed the House 66-23 in its final version. The Senate approved the measure in a 26-7 vote. "I think they'll stick," said Todd of those backing the bill with their votes. Sen. Doug Jackson, D-Dickson, who sponsored the bill in the Senate, said he would review the governor's comments before taking action because "I owe him that much respect." But he strongly defended the measure. "Realistically, the Legislature has given this a great deal of time and thought and did this without passion or emotion. We did this based on facts," Jackson said. "What the facts show is that the law-abiding citizen who is permitted and armed is not a threat. "It's the bad guys who are a threat," he said, adding that such people already ignore the law. The senator also noted that permit holders, while allowed to enter alcohol-serving establishments under the bill, are still prohibited from drinking when carrying guns. This is the sixth veto of Bredesen's tenure as governor. None of his previous vetoes has been overridden, but none of them involved such a high-profile issue. Knoxville Police Chief Sterling P. Owen IV was on hand for Bredesen's news conference and signing of the veto message, along with police chiefs of Nashville, Memphis and Chattanooga. Owen is currently president of the Tennessee Association of Chiefs of Police, which was holding a meeting in Nashville on Thursday. "This is a matter of safety for officers and citizen safety," Owen said. Memphis Chief Larry Goodwin referred to two recent killings in Memphis where the alleged killers held handgun carry permits: "In Memphis, we're keeping score. It's handgun permit holders two, unarmed citizens zero," he said. Bredesen acknowledged there is "the great potential, probably the likelihood" that his veto will be overridden, but said he felt obliged to try to get legislators to "rethink" their support of the bill. "He'll probably get overridden," said House Speaker Kent Williams, who voted for the bill. "I hate to vote against the governor on any issue, but this passed by a pretty large majority," Williams said. "The governor is doing what he feels he needs to do. He's entitled to his opinion. It counts almost as much as the Legislature's (opinion)." While I hate to think of any CCW being denied, I really can't fault the governor's thought process on this one. Alcohol reduces judgement. Carrying a firearm requires judgement. Guns and booze don't mix well, at all. __________________ *I don't know if dogs have a heaven, but there will be dogs in mine.* -->

05-29-2009, 12:50 PM	#4
pinecone70 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Minnesota Gal! Posts: 4,730	Re: "Guns in Bar" bill vetoed - TN I'd like to think that the citizens that are responsible enough to go through the process of acquiring a concealed carry permit are not the type that would go out and cause trouble. I could be wrong though. __________________ _____________________________________________ "Miss Scarlet, in the library...with a revolver...."

05-29-2009, 12:52 PM	#5
mrkirker Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3,067	Re: "Guns in Bar" bill vetoed - TN All this makes legal is for the permit holders to ENTER the establishment, not to drink once in there. Com'on 45, a fellow walks into a bar, and doesn't drink anything. I guess he's just heading in there for the beer nuts on the bar, LOL! Agreed, the common thought with LEO's is "We should be the only one's armed!" __________________ *I don't know if dogs have a heaven, but there will be dogs in mine.*

05-29-2009, 05:59 PM	#7
Old Guy V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Beaufort County, NC Contributor Posts: 342	Re: "Guns in Bar" bill vetoed - TN I replied to the editor of the Memphis Fox station regarding a horrible report on this issue a couple of weeks ago. The issue is not drinking, which is illegal for any of us with concealed carry permits anyway while we are carrying. The issue is there is some really great food in some of those places that you cannot find anywhere else. Should I not have the same right to protect myself if some wacko shows up brandishing a gun as I have anywhere else? In the mean time, I can enjoy my food and fellowship and not have a single alcoholic beverage. Hopefully the legislature will override the veto. And, being originally from Tennessee, you can discount Memphis anyway because it has for years been a cesspool for drugs and crime, mostly among the "minorities". Old Guy

05-29-2009, 06:37 PM	#8
ponycar17 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: South Carolina Contributor Posts: 4,884	Re: "Guns in Bar" bill vetoed - TN I'm forwarding this on to some in-laws who have connections with Bredesen. The point being missed entirely here is that most nicer restaurants serve alcohol and have bars on their premises. This law, as I understand it, was to allow diners the opportunity to carry a concealed weapon into these establishments legally if they do not consume alcohol. Since concealed carry permit holders are law-abiding citizens, per their impeccable record required to obtain the permit, it only stands to reason that they would also refrain from consuming alcohol if the law required as much to lawfully carry into the establishments referred to in the bill. I could be totally wrong... I have the same problem in SC, as most nicer restaurants offer the purchase of alcohol. I have to leave my pistol in the car even if I have no intention of purchasing alcohol. That gets annoying rather quickly... __________________ Arm yourself with intellectual Ammunition! Gunfacts 5.1 Myth-Busting Facts JustFacts.com on Gun Control Stopping Power, the Downloadable Book Last edited by ponycar17; 06-01-2009 at 09:04 PM..

05-31-2009, 07:53 AM	#9
jacksonco Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Jackson County West Virginia Posts: 2,237	Re: "Guns in Bar" bill vetoed - TN The way I see it in the Bars there are already a lot of guns and knives in those places. At least they are in my area. Even with the law in TN you can bet there are a fair share of guns in those establishments. Now to prevent a person from carrying into an eatery because they serve booze is a crime. Make us leave our weapons locked in the car unsecured and waiting for a theif to come along and take it. Your Governor's vetoe of that bill is a slap in the face of all law abiding citizens. Sorry it is early, just outa bed, and I am ramblin on and not to sensefull.

05-31-2009, 10:03 AM	#10
Trouble 45-70 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: NE Ar. W. of Black River Contributor Posts: 2,703	Re: "Guns in Bar" bill vetoed - TN There are many bad guys who like to hit the parking lots of nice restaurants for prosperous patrons. Hit and run. Too often they hit and shoot. I'm impressed that the Gov. of Tenn. is looking out for his constituants. I thought Gov. Bredisons constituants were the patrons of the restaurants. Sorry, I must have been mistaken, he is trying to protect the brutal class.

05-31-2009, 02:40 PM	#11
bcj1755 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: A wretched hive of scum and villiany Posts: 4,357	Re: "Guns in Bar" bill vetoed - TN NC has the same law on the books for concealed carry. No firearms in anyplace that serves alcohol for consumption on premesis. Even if the gun owner is not drinking. So, I just avoid going to places that serve booze. NC wants to keep me from protecting myself in those places, I can avoid paying sales tax to NC in those places. But then, I try to avoid going anyplace where I"m not allowed to carry. __________________ History is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace, and revolution continue on forever. Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges - Cicero If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams

06-01-2009, 11:32 AM	#12
mrkirker Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3,067	Re: "Guns in Bar" bill vetoed - TN Give me better warning next time you're coming to Texas and we'll get together and kill something. Roger, that! __________________ *I don't know if dogs have a heaven, but there will be dogs in mine.*

06-01-2009, 01:09 PM	#13
pawn Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Crossville, TN Posts: 1,469	Re: "Guns in Bar" bill vetoed - TN my understanding is that there is enough support to over-ride the veto. __________________ Take care when you get information. The truth is generally seen, rarely heard. -Balthasar Gracian

06-01-2009, 01:31 PM	#14
jim summers Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: I reside in southern Indiana, you can almost step out of my back door and be setting on Patoka Lake Posts: 1,056	Re: "Guns in Bar" bill vetoed - TN The Gov was right to veto this bill, to allow one to carry a weapon into an establishment that is by the very nature designed to consume alcohol and sometimes large quantities is a tragedy waiting to happen. Even people with good common sense can get their buttons pushed then common sense takes a back seat and the need to right a wrong takes center stage, especially when you have been disrespected in a place full of people watching. Just my thoughts on the issue. __________________ To Whom Much Is Given, Much Is Required.

06-01-2009, 01:50 PM	#15
Bill DeShivs Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Contributor Posts: 1,469	Re: "Guns in Bar" bill vetoed - TN Mr. Summers- Whether the bill is passed or not, it is illegal to drink while carrying in Tenn. If the carrier is not drinking it would be very hard for him to "consume alcohol" in any quantity. Larry Godwin is a political appointee of a very controversial mayor. He is a good appointee-he does what he is told. Memphis' current mayor is hell bent on destroying the city, and has done a very good job so far. The mayor is a confirmed racist and would like to run anyone who is not black from the city. __________________ Bill DeShivs www.billdeshivs.com

06-01-2009, 05:28 PM	#18
mrkirker Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3,067	Re: "Guns in Bar" bill vetoed - TN Wal-mart, 711, and Sam's Club, have on-site consumption? Well, that sure explains how some of the employees behave! __________________ *I don't know if dogs have a heaven, but there will be dogs in mine.*

06-01-2009, 09:14 PM	#19
ponycar17 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: South Carolina Contributor Posts: 4,884	Re: "Guns in Bar" bill vetoed - TN This kind of logic would seemingly dictate that you should either store all your firearms outside your home or do all your drinking outside; one or the other.... In all honesty, this bill is misunderstood. Allowing non-drinking patrons of nicer restaurants to carry their lawful concealed weapon just makes sense. My wife and I have two restaurants we frequent that are mainly known for their bars but have great food in the dining area. One serves some great pizza and the other serves hamburgers that are well-known locally. How would the presence of a concealed weapon in those places present an elevated hazard to anyone if carried by non-consuming patrons? I see no difference in this case than carry into a grocery store. Also, how would a law prohibiting carry into these establishments be any more effective than the law already in place prohibiting carry by someone under the influence of alcohol? It would seem to me that if a person has intent to break one law, then the other additional law doesn't carry any more prevention capability. __________________ Arm yourself with intellectual Ammunition! Gunfacts 5.1 Myth-Busting Facts JustFacts.com on Gun Control Stopping Power, the Downloadable Book Last edited by ponycar17; 06-01-2009 at 09:41 PM..