FFL vs C&R - The Firearms Forum

38 special · 06-12-2009, 09:03 PM

Does anyone know what the Government's reason was to create these 2 licenses? I always assumed it had something to do with the older guns being less apt to be used as a deadly weapon against someone. But that doesnt seem to make sense. If I bought a like new1955 Colt python for example ,(over 50 years old) this gun could certainly be shot and would be mechanically as good or superior to a brand new taurus so it certainly could be used as a deadly weapon. So why is there a difference. Just curious

kutaho · 06-12-2009, 11:03 PM

I guess the older guns are 'grandfathered"? Just a guess

I still use my second model .455 S&W

Helix_FR · 06-19-2009, 02:03 AM

Having a FFL03 (C&R) myself that is a fantastic question. Just to clarify things a C&R is a FFL license. Its known as a FFL03. Most people however are familiar with the FFL01 b/c these licenses allow transfers of any weapon and also allow distribution and sales. The C&R however is a stripped down version of that. C&R rules are very specific to firearms older than 50 yrs and still some of those weapons do not apply especially if they have been altered past original issued configuration. ie, drilled and tapped receivers, modern stocks etc. C&R also does not allow one to distribute, it only allows someone to obtain or purchase out side of his or her own state.
So whats the point of the C&R? my opinion is to allow people like myself to retain history. Your correct, my Japanese Type 99 rifle could do just as much damage as any modern day rifle but the likelyhood of it showing up in a crime scene is far unlikely and I believe the ATF recognizes this. Also having a C&R allows me to transfer these older weapons to myself for my own personal collecton. It does not allow me to distribute or do my own background checks and quite frankly I wouldn't want that responsibility. The ATF has the FFL03 for collectors, if it didn't exist then most of us with a 03 would have a 01 and that far more distributors than the ATF would like I'm sure.

38 special · 06-25-2009, 12:16 PM

Helix FR, Thanks for the good information. Is it hard to get the ffl3 license? With that license,if I was to buy a 50+ year old gun from internet site, they could then ship it to me direct. Is that correct? Also if i went to a gun show and bought a 50+ year old gun,I could show them ny license and no background check would be necessary correct?
I have been thinking about getting this license because most guns I am interested in are over 50 years old -most are 50 to 80 years old.

islenos · 06-25-2009, 12:32 PM

The FFl01 is for a business that engages in the sale of firearms.
Whereas the FFL03 is intended for a collector of special firearms.

A lot less regs with a C&R, you still have to keep a log book but that's about it.

22WRF · 06-25-2009, 02:52 PM

There are many guns on the C&R list that are not 50 years old.

islenos · 06-25-2009, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 22WRF

There are many guns on the C&R list that are not 50 years old.

They either have to be 50 years old or have a Special Interest that renders it collectible.

1stTankerSki · 06-28-2009, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helix_FR

Having a FFL03 (C&R) myself that is a fantastic question. Just to clarify things a C&R is a FFL license. Its known as a FFL03. Most people however are familiar with the FFL01 b/c these licenses allow transfers of any weapon and also allow distribution and sales. The C&R however is a stripped down version of that. C&R rules are very specific to firearms older than 50 yrs and still some of those weapons do not apply especially if they have been altered past original issued configuration. ie, drilled and tapped receivers, modern stocks etc. C&R also does not allow one to distribute, it only allows someone to obtain or purchase out side of his or her own state.
So whats the point of the C&R? my opinion is to allow people like myself to retain history. Your correct, my Japanese Type 99 rifle could do just as much damage as any modern day rifle but the likelyhood of it showing up in a crime scene is far unlikely and I believe the ATF recognizes this. Also having a C&R allows me to transfer these older weapons to myself for my own personal collecton. It does not allow me to distribute or do my own background checks and quite frankly I wouldn't want that responsibility. The ATF has the FFL03 for collectors, if it didn't exist then most of us with a 03 would have a 01 and that far more distributors than the ATF would like I'm sure.

This is quite correct, the 03-C&R is for collectors, between 03-holders, in State at Gun Shows, out of state with 01-Dealers, and other 03-C&R collectors.

Hello All, I just joined the forum, and not too long ago obtained my 03-C&R, but ever since '66 and was discharged from the Corps, my first hunting rifle a Rem. 721, .30-06 in the local Gun Shop, with very little paper work, I showed my DD-214, and paid cash. and walked out with it and a box of ammo. For deer hunting in Penn. in N.J. back then we used, 12 ga. shotguns for deer and bear, and bought it from a news paper classified ad, an Ithaca model 37 field grade, plain stock for $250. it had the solid rib, I drilled it out myself to vent it, and shortened the 28" barrel to 25" using 00-buck or rifled slugs. Most deer hunting in the Pine Barrens of N.J. deer are shot in under 100 ft.

My Oh My!, how times have changed, that was before the '68 gun laws. Any purchase since then was with a FFL Dealer. Forty-two years later, I'm glad to have my 03-C&R, it's just easier being a collector and legal owner, of old and new.

Ski

momo · 06-28-2009, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 38 special

Helix FR, Thanks for the good information. Is it hard to get the ffl3 license? With that license,if I was to buy a 50+ year old gun from internet site, they could then ship it to me direct. Is that correct? Also if i went to a gun show and bought a 50+ year old gun,I could show them ny license and no background check would be necessary correct?
I have been thinking about getting this license because most guns I am interested in are over 50 years old -most are 50 to 80 years old.

To get a C&R license you need to fill out an ATF form 7 and mail in $30.00 with the application. It will take about 1 to 2 months to get the license. Yes, you can buy C&R eligible guns from an internet site and have them shipped directly to you (you save a bundle in transfer fees). As for gun shows, it depends on the vendor, some will accept the license others make you fill out a form 4473. The license is good for three years, so you're actually paying ten bucks a year for it.

gdmoody · 06-28-2009, 10:18 PM

I am going to throw in my 2 cents worth. The C&R will allow you to have a curio or relec mailed directly to the address on your license. You will not have to have it shipped to a dealer and pay the transfer fee, since you are the FFL holder. The C&R does not give you the right to buy then SELL the guns, it is designed for collectors. I have been both a Class 01 dealer and a C&R holder and I can tell you that the paperwork you need to keep is almost the same no matter which FFL you have You must keep your purcheses logged into a "bound book". I am not sure of the time limit, but I think that you must keep a weapon for a minimum of one year before you can sell it. You again must log in the sale of that gun into the bound book as to who it was sold to.

Another reason I like my C&R is because Midway USA will give you a discount on anything you buy from them. It may not be a huge discount but 10% off is good by me!

gandog56 · 06-29-2009, 11:22 AM

Midway, Graf and Sons, Numrich........

Helix_FR · 06-30-2009, 01:03 PM

Here is the list of vendors that I have on file will honor the C&R license.
Call them to find out how to get on there dealer list. Most will just want you to fax or email a pdf of your license. Some still want you to mail it in. Midway and Brownells give some of the best discounts. Both accepted e-mailed licenses. Both of them you will need a online account first then send in your license and tell them to apply it to your online account number. Brownells took about an hour. Midway had it done the next day.
Here is just an example of the types of discounts (also not not all items will get a discount but most will) Brownells bedding kit 24.00 online. Online with dealer discount 14.50!

1 to 2 months to get your license back if your lucky. It took about a month to get the application. It was 3 months for me and 2 phone calls. The lady that handled mine (each state has there own agent) was super nice. If possible ask to speak to the agent that handles your area. The person answering the phone is not so helpful b/c all they have is what the computer tells them. The area agent can give you a specific date of when they will get to your. My lady gave me a date and 3 weeks later still had nothing. I called her back and she said she was so sorry but it was sitting on her desk waiting to have the license printed. She had it printed up right away and faxed me a copy so I could get it to vendors. 2 days later I got my license. ATF's number is 1-866-662-2750

AIM Surplus (firearms/ammo seller),

Allan's Armory,
Aztec International,
Brownells Inc (gun parts etc.)

Centerfire Systems
Century Arms (firearms/ammo)

Cole Distributing (firearms/ammo seller

Empire Arms
FAC of America,
Graf and Sons,

Huntingtons (ammo, reloading)

J&G Sales (firearms, ammo, accessories)

InterOrdnance,
L.C. Enterprises (firearms, ammo seller)

Numrich Gun Parts (gunparts Offers DISCOUNT)

SARCO Inc. (firearms/ammo, gunparts, accessories)

Southern Ohio Guns (SOG) (firearms/ammo)

Wholesale Guns (firearms/ammo)
Midway USA (parts, ammo, reloading, books etc.)

Samco (firearms/ammo)

RJay · 06-30-2009, 08:26 PM

The reason for the Curio and Relic License? At one time just about anyone could have a FFL. Most collectors had one, I had one. 30 dollars a year. There were so many people who had FFL who only had them for the convenience. In 68 they raised the rates and set a number of conditions to qualify for a FFL, to placate the collectors they created the CRL License.

I guess you weren't around 40 years ago { or was it that long ago ?} when this was going on.

06-12-2009, 09:03 PM	#1
38 special Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 548	FFL vs C&R Does anyone know what the Government's reason was to create these 2 licenses? I always assumed it had something to do with the older guns being less apt to be used as a deadly weapon against someone. But that doesnt seem to make sense. If I bought a like new1955 Colt python for example ,(over 50 years old) this gun could certainly be shot and would be mechanically as good or superior to a brand new taurus so it certainly could be used as a deadly weapon. So why is there a difference. Just curious -->

06-12-2009, 11:03 PM	#2
kutaho Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Peoples Republic of the Pacific Northwest Posts: 1,852	Re: FFL vs C&R I guess the older guns are 'grandfathered"? Just a guess I still use my second model .455 S&W __________________ No man stands in the same river twice If all else fails grab a rock Mi Taku oyasin

06-19-2009, 02:03 AM	#3
Helix_FR TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Imperial, MO Posts: 3,624	Re: FFL vs C&R Having a FFL03 (C&R) myself that is a fantastic question. Just to clarify things a C&R is a FFL license. Its known as a FFL03. Most people however are familiar with the FFL01 b/c these licenses allow transfers of any weapon and also allow distribution and sales. The C&R however is a stripped down version of that. C&R rules are very specific to firearms older than 50 yrs and still some of those weapons do not apply especially if they have been altered past original issued configuration. ie, drilled and tapped receivers, modern stocks etc. C&R also does not allow one to distribute, it only allows someone to obtain or purchase out side of his or her own state. So whats the point of the C&R? my opinion is to allow people like myself to retain history. Your correct, my Japanese Type 99 rifle could do just as much damage as any modern day rifle but the likelyhood of it showing up in a crime scene is far unlikely and I believe the ATF recognizes this. Also having a C&R allows me to transfer these older weapons to myself for my own personal collecton. It does not allow me to distribute or do my own background checks and quite frankly I wouldn't want that responsibility. The ATF has the FFL03 for collectors, if it didn't exist then most of us with a 03 would have a 01 and that far more distributors than the ATF would like I'm sure.

06-25-2009, 12:16 PM	#4
38 special Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 548	Re: FFL vs C&R Helix FR, Thanks for the good information. Is it hard to get the ffl3 license? With that license,if I was to buy a 50+ year old gun from internet site, they could then ship it to me direct. Is that correct? Also if i went to a gun show and bought a 50+ year old gun,I could show them ny license and no background check would be necessary correct? I have been thinking about getting this license because most guns I am interested in are over 50 years old -most are 50 to 80 years old.

06-25-2009, 12:32 PM	#5
islenos Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: West Texas Posts: 1,244	Re: FFL vs C&R The FFl01 is for a business that engages in the sale of firearms. Whereas the FFL03 is intended for a collector of special firearms. A lot less regs with a C&R, you still have to keep a log book but that's about it. __________________

06-25-2009, 02:52 PM	#6
22WRF Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pea Ridge, FL Contributor Posts: 4,253	Re: FFL vs C&R There are many guns on the C&R list that are not 50 years old. __________________ NRA GOA CCRKBA Happiness is a warm barrel

06-28-2009, 10:18 PM	#10
gdmoody Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Northeast Georgia Contributor Posts: 6,349	Re: FFL vs C&R I am going to throw in my 2 cents worth. The C&R will allow you to have a curio or relec mailed directly to the address on your license. You will not have to have it shipped to a dealer and pay the transfer fee, since you are the FFL holder. The C&R does not give you the right to buy then SELL the guns, it is designed for collectors. I have been both a Class 01 dealer and a C&R holder and I can tell you that the paperwork you need to keep is almost the same no matter which FFL you have You must keep your purcheses logged into a "bound book". I am not sure of the time limit, but I think that you must keep a weapon for a minimum of one year before you can sell it. You again must log in the sale of that gun into the bound book as to who it was sold to. Another reason I like my C&R is because Midway USA will give you a discount on anything you buy from them. It may not be a huge discount but 10% off is good by me! __________________ NRA Endowment Member GeorgiaCarry.Org Member Retired US Army Postal Worker Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an ass whoopin'.....author unknown (but obviously brilliant)

06-29-2009, 11:22 AM	#11
gandog56 V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Mobile AL. Posts: 325	Re: FFL vs C&R Midway, Graf and Sons, Numrich........

06-30-2009, 01:03 PM	#12
Helix_FR TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Imperial, MO Posts: 3,624	Re: FFL vs C&R Here is the list of vendors that I have on file will honor the C&R license. Call them to find out how to get on there dealer list. Most will just want you to fax or email a pdf of your license. Some still want you to mail it in. Midway and Brownells give some of the best discounts. Both accepted e-mailed licenses. Both of them you will need a online account first then send in your license and tell them to apply it to your online account number. Brownells took about an hour. Midway had it done the next day. Here is just an example of the types of discounts (also not not all items will get a discount but most will) Brownells bedding kit 24.00 online. Online with dealer discount 14.50! 1 to 2 months to get your license back if your lucky. It took about a month to get the application. It was 3 months for me and 2 phone calls. The lady that handled mine (each state has there own agent) was super nice. If possible ask to speak to the agent that handles your area. The person answering the phone is not so helpful b/c all they have is what the computer tells them. The area agent can give you a specific date of when they will get to your. My lady gave me a date and 3 weeks later still had nothing. I called her back and she said she was so sorry but it was sitting on her desk waiting to have the license printed. She had it printed up right away and faxed me a copy so I could get it to vendors. 2 days later I got my license. ATF's number is 1-866-662-2750 AIM Surplus (firearms/ammo seller), Allan's Armory, Aztec International, Brownells Inc (gun parts etc.) Centerfire Systems Century Arms (firearms/ammo) Cole Distributing (firearms/ammo seller Empire Arms FAC of America, Graf and Sons, Huntingtons (ammo, reloading) J&G Sales (firearms, ammo, accessories) InterOrdnance, L.C. Enterprises (firearms, ammo seller) Numrich Gun Parts (gunparts Offers DISCOUNT) SARCO Inc. (firearms/ammo, gunparts, accessories) Southern Ohio Guns (SOG) (firearms/ammo) Wholesale Guns (firearms/ammo) Midway USA (parts, ammo, reloading, books etc.) Samco (firearms/ammo)

06-30-2009, 08:26 PM	#13
RJay Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,487	Re: FFL vs C&R The reason for the Curio and Relic License? At one time just about anyone could have a FFL. Most collectors had one, I had one. 30 dollars a year. There were so many people who had FFL who only had them for the convenience. In 68 they raised the rates and set a number of conditions to qualify for a FFL, to placate the collectors they created the CRL License. I guess you weren't around 40 years ago { or was it that long ago ?} when this was going on. __________________ RonJames Last edited by RJay; 06-30-2009 at 08:44 PM..