No more guns for people on watchlists?

[bcj1755]

More than 800 gun buyers on terrorist watch list
AP

By EILEEN SULLIVAN, Associated Press Writer Eileen Sullivan, Associated Press Writer – Mon Jun 22, 5:23 pm ET

WASHINGTON – More than 800 gun purchases were approved after background checks in the last five years even though the buyers' names were on the government's terrorist watch list, investigators said Monday.

Being on the watch list is not among the nine factors, such as a felony conviction, that disqualify someone from buying a gun under federal law. More than 900 background checks between February 2004 and February 2009 turned up names on the watch list, and all but 98 were allowed to go through.

The watch list — maintained by the FBI and used by federal, state and local law enforcement agencies — is meant to identify known or suspected terrorists. However, the list has drawn criticism over the years for mistakes that have led to questioning and searches of innocent people.

The Government Accountability Office, the watchdog arm of Congress, provided the updated statistics in a new report. The GAO issued a report on the watch-list loophole in 2005, but no changes have been made to the law.

"The current law simply defies common sense," Sen. Frank Lautenberg said in a statement Monday.

Lautenberg, D-N.J., has been calling for years to close the "terror gap" in the gun law and introduced legislation Monday to address this concern. "Known and suspected terrorists are exploiting a major loophole in our law, threatening our families and our communities," he said.

The FBI plans to analyze where people on the watch list are trying to purchase guns as well as other information, the GAO said.

There are about 400,000 people on the terror watch list, according to the FBI. Over the past two years, the agency has looked at 830 people who believe they are on the watch list by mistake. For privacy and national security reasons, the FBI does not acknowledge whether a person has been removed from the list.

The top lobbyist for the National Rifle Association said the terrorist watch list has poor integrity.

"Law-abiding Americans should not be treated like terrorists," the NRA's Chris Cox said. "To deny law-abiding people due process and their Second Amendment rights based on a secret list is not how we do things in America."

In 2007, the Justice Department supported legislation that would address the gap, but Congress did not act on it.

The Justice Department is reviewing Lautenberg's bill, department spokesman Dean Boyd said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_watch_list_guns


So a New Jersey Democrat, suprise suprise, wants to stop people on the gov't watchlist from buying guns.

"Law-abiding Americans should not be treated like terrorists," the NRA's Chris Cox said. "To deny law-abiding people due process and their Second Amendment rights based on a secret list is not how we do things in America."

No, but it is the way things will be done in Obama's workers' paradise Socialist States of America. Even if someone is suspected of a crime, they still have civil rights in this country. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? I notice that most of the people in this country that buy the majority of privately owned firearms are conservatives. And conservatives are now considered "potential right-wing terrorists" by the feds. So Lautenberg's attempt to "close the loophole in the name of public safety" is nothing but a thinly veiled attempt to prevent non-Kool-Aid drinkers from buying guns.

[GMFWoodchuck]

It's just gonna be another big joke like the Brady Bill where 40,000 people were ""denied" the right to buy a gun when in actuallity when all was said and done you can count the people who were denied on your fingers. The system is just a political joke designed to make it look like criminals buy guns in stores also marginalizing the rest of us gunowners into that same group. The reality is that people need to hear that the 40,000 people who were denied were on "watchlists" as well. However, these people were arrested without convictions (otherwise known as innocent), people arrested on ridiculous grounds (should people arrested for laying down and peacefully protesting the Vietnam really be denied the right to own firearms?), and traffic violations and so on. The vast majority simply had to go to the local courthouse and get the proper paperwork and then buy the gun. The vast majority being on the order of 39993 of them. Of course, not one case was filed against the few who were legitimately denied as it's against the law for a registered violent felon to buy a firearm.

Yes, you may be on a watch list that trips the intial denial. But, as it will (for now) work you will simply need to file even more pointless paperwork. Keep in mind. The watchlists are huge and vast. If you have ever been suspected of any crime (not just arrested, charged, or even convicted) you will trip the system and be denied the first time around. It could be for doing a burnout in front of a cop in your car. Or being part of a Tea Party. That is how Bill Clinton was able to phony up the 40,000 people being denied. Virtually all were allowed to buy a gun anyway. But it does show why the system does not work for society. It does not protect us, and costs money. It does work for the government, as it records what guns you have so the ATFE will know who has the guns and what procedures to take when they decide to raid your house when these guns are declared illegal.

No matter what any bureacrat says, the information is 100% not being deleted. You are a permanent record in their system. I bought a Savage 12fv last fall, and despite what the FBI and ATFE says about the information being supposedly deleted after a short time, I fully expect a visit from them when "sniper rifles" are declared outlawed and illegal. And so should you. They will work for their paychecks on that day as they will take my guns only from my dead hands. But, just so everyone knows, they will have to come to me as I will never start anything. I will always reserve my rights as a human being. Not just as a citizen of the United States protected by the Constitution.

[Trouble 45-70]

Lautenberg D. N.J. author of the Lautenberg bill which denies ownership of firearms if you have had a domestic disturbance with wife or kids and the cops are called. Cost a lot of Cops and Military their jobs. There does not even have to be a conviction. We can see where this going. Pro gun, pro life, no tax increases, oppose big govt. etc. no guns. the only people left with guns are progressive Democrats and most of them don't want them untill they figure out they can now increase their power by owning guns when their opponents arn't allowed to have any.

[45nut]

Well, we knew this was their agenda so how is this all that surprising? Still, I hope it isn't any LEO's that I know when they come for them.

[USMC-03]

To expand on the point, if the right to bear arms can be infringed by simply having the police at your door step, and without due process, will this translate over to other rights? How soon will the political class start sending the police to the homes of those who would vote against them?

[RunningOnMT]

At the top of the terror watch list should be Obama and idiots like Lautenberg and the rest of his liberal cohorts who would dismantle the constitution.

[OBrien]

Originally Posted by RunningOnMT

At the top of the terror watch list should be Obama and idiots like Lautenberg and the rest of his liberal cohorts who would dismantle the constitution.

I agree 100% but the sad part is that more of us here on on those lists that shouldn't than the people in Washington who should be.

[Southern Boy]

Did'nt the fBI just come out with a list that included Pro-lifers, #rd. party bumper sticker owners, and returning from war hero consevatives? I tend to purchase my firearms from my local ads in our newspapers. Still, I would like to continue to have the option to buy from a dealer when i want to. I've gotta be on some of those list by now.

[ponycar17]

Why do people keep electing idiots like this? Oh, that's right... the dang Unions, who encourage their membership to vote for anyone with a D to the right of their name. When are people going to start thinking for themselves?

They act like criminals are really buying firearms at gun shows and through private transactions. A coworker was griping about anyone being able to buy a gun at a gun show. I said, so why do you think gun shows are bad? He said, "well, anyone can go to the show and buy a gun because of the loop hole." I explained that there is no 'gun show loop hole'. The myth exists because private transactions do not require paperwork or background checks in many states. He says, "but anyone doesn't need to be able to buy firearms." I had this analogy to offer. If you buy a used Glock from me at a gun show I'm going to want the market rate for that gun, up to $450 used. If you buy a gun from an illegal street dealer you're going to pay a stolen property rate of $50-100. Something clicked and he said, "so that's the same thing as buying a stolen car versus a normal used car..." I said, "yes, and does a criminal care if the car or gun is stolen?..."

He didn't really understand when I told him how most purchases at gun shows are through licensed dealers and your background is checked just like if you walked into a big box store.

I think he actually learned something. The problem is that the modern media doesn't allow for this type of explanation to reach most people. The people therefore believe whatever they're told.

It's amazing some of us remember how to put our pants on from day to day as society is continually dumbed down...

[millwright]

You're catching on people !!

First label your enemies, then bend every effort to prosecute them.....The validitiy of the label isn't important. Nor is the truth..... >MW

[SaddleSarge]

WEELLLLLlllllllll,

That just kind'a violates the 6th Amendment. But who gives a damn about the constitution anymore?

There was a day when it would be considered a "lynching" to be declared guilty without the benefit of a trial with the accused unable to face the accuser.

Edit: It wouldn't be so bad if they were "prosecuted." Right now, I'd just call it, "persecuted."

[dge479]

We have been trying to get rid of this jerk for years. We need term limits

[SaddleSarge]

Originally Posted by dge479

We have been trying to get rid of this jerk for years. We need term limits

We need is intelligent voters. I believe you need to pass a class in 8th grade U.S. history to be able to get a, "voters license." My opinion is that term limits merely circumvents the inability of the voting public to make rational choices.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by SaddleSarge

We need is intelligent voters. I believe you need to pass a class in 8th grade U.S. history to be able to get a, "voters license." My opinion is that term limits merely circumvents the inability of the voting public to make rational choices.

Isn't "intelligent voter" becoming an oxymoron these days, Sarge? Judging from the students I commonly get in my history and philosophy courses, I am forced to surmise that nothing of fundamental value is being taught them in the public schools anymore. Most of them cannot compose a coherent, grammatically correct English sentence, nor do they possess the reading skills necessary to sort out BS and propaganda from intelligent analysis. As for the "license" part, I do agree that there should be criteria for exercising the franchise, though I also think we must be very careful with what those criteria should rightfully be. Among the basic skills I see as necessary would be the ability to read and understand simple English, a demonstrated fundamental knowledge of American history and the Constitutional process, along with proven residence and citizenship.

[SaddleSarge]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

Isn't "intelligent voter" becoming an oxymoron these days, Sarge?

Yup, dopey me. You're on spot on the rest.

The immigrants (legal ones) learn more American History in their citizenship classes than those who go through the public system.

[alhefner]

In a society where "We's be has did dat." and "i'm gonna get mines" are thought to be intelligent sentences, what more can you expect?

The education movement should really be renamed to the "ingorance intitiative"!

[Marine1]

You too can be a Rightwing Extremist and put on the Terrorist Watchlist. Here are some of the things that Homeland Security feels may indicate that you are a Rightwing Extremist:

• If you are a veteran with combat training
• If you are unhappy with the current economic or political climate
• If you believe in the US Constitution , States Rights and a limited Federal Government
• If you support the Second Amendment
• If you oppose outsourcing US jobs
• If you believe in protecting our borders
• If you believe in the sovereignty of the US
• If you oppose weapons restrictions and bans
• If you stockpile ammo or guns
• If you stockpile food and supplies
• If you use the Internet to learn about weapons and tactics
• If you use SSL or other encryption methods to communicate over the Internet

The source of this information is http://www.nraila.org/media/PDFs/DHS...mismReport.pdf

Some of us fit all of these criteria. Most of us fit some of the criteria. I’ll bet all of us fit ONE. I fit all of these, yet I am just a proud American.

An unacceptable problem with the proposed Lautenberg legislation is that the Attorney General decides who get put on the list. He can make up any criteria for the list he wants. What happened to due process?

The other unacceptable problem with this is that you can be put on the list without even being investigated. Then once you’re on the list, there is no way to get off. Here is the source Department of Justice report

[Trouble 45-70]

Welcome to TFF Marine1, glad to have another Marine on the forum. Must have at least a squad activly posting.

[Southern Boy]

Oh no, Looks like I'm on all the watch lists you've mentioned marine1. Time to go off the grid completely till TSHTF.

[AL MOUNT]

Originally Posted by Trouble 45-70

Welcome to TFF Marine1, glad to have another Marine on the forum. Must have at least a squad activly posting.

Oh No..... not another ...



Just kidden..... welcome aboard Marine....

[armedandsafe]

My son tells me that haircut is called "high 'n' tight." We called that style "glass walls."

Pops

[AL MOUNT]

Originally Posted by armedandsafe

My son tells me that haircut is called "high 'n' tight." We called that style "glass walls."

Pops

Amry dudes call em "Jarheads"....

[Marine1]

Thanks for the welcome aboard.

You never had to tell the barber how to cut your hair. You just got in the chair and two minutes later you were on your way.

I have never seen so many people that have sworn an oath to support the Constitution work so hard to destroy it as our elected officals are.

Imagine how many men and women have given their lives to protect our freedoms and our Constitution while the politicians tear it apart. What a betrayal.

[bcj1755]

Originally Posted by Marine1

Thanks for the welcome aboard.

You never had to tell the barber how to cut your hair. You just got in the chair and two minutes later you were on your way.

I have never seen so many people that have sworn an oath to support the Constitution work so hard to destroy it as our elected officals are.

Imagine how many men and women have given their lives to protect our freedoms and our Constitution while the politicians tear it apart. What a betrayal.

Betrayal, nothing! I call it TREASON!