Just a Constitutional question...no offense intended.

kingnothingugm · 09-18-2009, 05:33 PM

Anyone have any thoughts as to the validity of West Virginia's statehood?

Please refer to the Constitution- Article 4, Section 3, Clause 1.

Please note...I intend no offense, I just think that to the letter of the Constitution...West Virginia's statehood is absolutely illegitimate.

navis128 · 09-18-2009, 05:45 PM

"...without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress"

Considering what was going on at the time, Virginia might have agreed.

kingnothingugm · 09-18-2009, 05:57 PM

Actually...Virginia also challenged the validity of West Virginia's statehood in the supreme court...Virginia v West Virginia, 78 U.S. 39 (1870). Lincoln recognized their statehood immediately and congress followed quickly. Since virginia disputed it's statehood I believe that it was a direct and intentional violation of the U.S. Constitution.

Hope noone gets upset...I like West Virginia...but facts is facts!

navis128 · 09-18-2009, 06:22 PM

Correct me please...wasn't Lincoln dead by 1870?

22WRF · 09-18-2009, 06:30 PM

Isn't that "West-by-God-Virginia??????

navis128 · 09-18-2009, 06:39 PM

I'm not a Constitutional Lawyer and only referenced some of the history books I have around, but from the sound of it, Unionists just went a head and formed a state that was admitted in 1863.

Surely after the war and that period of annomosity, surely they took the time to clear that up.

What a mess this could be.

kingnothingugm · 09-18-2009, 06:42 PM

Lincoln recognized WV as a state before the Civil War officially started...but the Supreme Court's final ruling wasn't until 1870. Either way VA did not consent to the release of it's territories to the Union.

kingnothingugm · 09-18-2009, 06:48 PM

Quick word. As I said...I mean no offense...but...each state FREELY entered into a Union. These states existed as sovereign entities before said Union was conceived. As each state entered freely and intact it seems logical that each state could also leave freely and intact. It was a voluntary agreement, after all. But for the Union, which was created by the states, to deny that state it's rightful territory is like the child punishing the parent.

kingnothingugm · 09-18-2009, 06:54 PM

Also...trying to keep topic wander to a minimum...I am not trying to argue the legality of any states right to succeed(spelling?). I just want to have a friendly discussion on your opinions of the current topic. Also, Navis< I was told you might be able to help with another post I have here. Please look at General Discussion and my "oddball question"...Thanks! I do appreciate your opinion!

navis128 · 09-18-2009, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingnothingugm

Quick word. As I said...I mean no offense...but...each state FREELY entered into a Union. These states existed as sovereign entities before said Union was conceived. As each state entered freely and intact it seems logical that each state could also leave freely and intact. It was a voluntary agreement, after all. But for the Union, which was created by the states, to deny that state it's rightful territory is like the child punishing the parent.

I hear ya.

The Union also wanted to confiscate property without compensation, thus our civil war.

I don't know if any other states have the right to suceed, but Texas retained that right somehow, and we even brag on that today.

kingnothingugm · 09-18-2009, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navis128

I don't know if any other states have the right to suceed, but Texas retained that right somehow, and we even brag on that today.

I commend Texas for the amazing foresight. Foolish of those states who didn't take similar action.

Anyone else have an opinion on WV?

USMARINE1884 · 09-18-2009, 08:33 PM

It is all in the "necessary and proper clause" with the implied powers of congress. They deemed that during a civil war that any state that wanted to split and start its own state and provide its own troops for the Union was ok. Is it really well no its not but the fed gov seems to not care too much. I am surprised there is no north/south Maryland ....

Alpo · 09-19-2009, 08:19 AM

I could be totally wrong here, but think on this.

My understanding is Virginia seceded from the Union. The area that became West (by God) Virginia said, "We ain't no damn secessionists", and seceded from Virginia.

Now, since Virginia left first, Constitutional requirements did not apply to a piece of Virginia leaving Virginia and re-entering the Union.

kingnothingugm · 09-19-2009, 08:37 AM

By violating the regulations set forth in the Constitution, I feel that the Fed forfeited it's own legitimacy. That would mean the Union itself was effectively null and void. Breach of contract? How can you leave or join something which doesn't exist? It was by force that the Union survived not because it was justified in it's actions, or legitimate. It was the schoolyard bully who forced the CSA to hand over its lunch money.

Blackhawk Dave · 09-19-2009, 09:02 AM

The winners make the rules. The North won, they set the rules, and accepted West Virginia. End of Story. As to Texas being able to break up, that was superceded when a new constitution was required. Interesting thing is that Texas submitted a new constitution based on the US constitution, and the Feds said we couldn't do that. Give too much power to the state. Now we have that unwealdy thing that has been amended hundreds of times. However, after watching what Washington has done, I'm glad we don't have that type of constitution for the state.

carver · 09-19-2009, 09:18 AM

It is my understanding that there are several states that never did actually join the union, their membership was never properly ratified because they could not agree on the letter of the law. As to WV, I have read a good bit about their true statehood, but am still in the dark as to wheather or not their statehood is leagal according to the Constitution.

kingnothingugm · 09-19-2009, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhawk Dave

Interesting thing is that Texas submitted a new constitution based on the US constitution, and the Feds said we couldn't do that. Give too much power to the state.

This is a power which was not granted to the Fed. Deciding how a state governs itself. Same thing as the child telling the parent no.
By the way, I consider TX among my favorite states. Wish I had extra cash to buy some land.

Terry_P · 09-19-2009, 04:57 PM

The Supreme Court decided and they are charged with interperting the constitution therefore your question is do you agree with the decision as it is legal the highest court in the land said so. If you read down a vote was taken and certified by the governor.

http://supreme.justia.com/us/78/39/

user · 09-20-2009, 06:20 AM

At the time that the secession occurred, Virginia was not a member state of the U.S., and was treated by the U.S. as a foreign territory out of which a new state might be defined and recognized. The right of conquest gives the victor certain prerogatives, and we live in a conquered country. Virginia's participation in the United States dates from the readmission after the Great War between the United States and the Commonwealth, not ratification of the Constitution, and upon readmission, Virginia was legally presumed to have accepted the terms offered by the U.S., including recognition of W.Va. as a separate entity.

yellerdawg · 09-20-2009, 08:33 AM

Hello all and an interseting topic. It sure was kind of special the way
this state (WV) was handled right before and after the war. Past procedures make for beer table debate, but West Virginia is a valid US state, and cannot (now) have that reversed or questioned under current law. I called a friend who is up on this stuff and he told me two reasons or facts that I should have written down...but is still a good thing to discuss....

I have had the good fortune to travel and work in all but one of our fifty states...and three time in Peurto Rico.....

It was back in 80's...and all I remember at the time about WV was a deal going on with a town...because of the bad economy..it was bad too...the red cross...medical...etc was going to shut down and other things...well some leaders discovered or found out that they had the abillity to apply for foreign aid to repair or keep open a VITAL bridge to this place...and it actually went all the way forward that...the Soviet Union was going to supply funds to help this town/entity...and I believe at the last minute the Feds stepped in and fixed the bridge or what was needed....this was a true story and I think I will find out more...for my own memory....

I met good people in WV...but dearly miss VA and the good people there also....

regards,

09-18-2009, 05:33 PM	#1
kingnothingugm V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: FL Posts: 274	Just a Constitutional question...no offense intended. Anyone have any thoughts as to the validity of West Virginia's statehood? Please refer to the Constitution- Article 4, Section 3, Clause 1. Please note...I intend no offense, I just think that to the letter of the Constitution...West Virginia's statehood is absolutely illegitimate. __________________ Freedom is not being able to do what you want, whenever you feel like it. Freedom is being willing to die defending your right to do so. -- Me Those who fight deserve our respect, wether they win or lose. -- Me -->

09-18-2009, 05:45 PM	#2
navis128 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,392	Re: Just a Constitutional question...no offense intended. "...without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress" Considering what was going on at the time, Virginia might have agreed.

09-18-2009, 05:57 PM	#3
kingnothingugm V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: FL Posts: 274	Re: Just a Constitutional question...no offense intended. Actually...Virginia also challenged the validity of West Virginia's statehood in the supreme court...Virginia v West Virginia, 78 U.S. 39 (1870). Lincoln recognized their statehood immediately and congress followed quickly. Since virginia disputed it's statehood I believe that it was a direct and intentional violation of the U.S. Constitution. Hope noone gets upset...I like West Virginia...but facts is facts! __________________ Freedom is not being able to do what you want, whenever you feel like it. Freedom is being willing to die defending your right to do so. -- Me Those who fight deserve our respect, wether they win or lose. -- Me

09-18-2009, 06:22 PM	#4
navis128 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,392	Re: Just a Constitutional question...no offense intended. Correct me please...wasn't Lincoln dead by 1870?

09-18-2009, 06:30 PM	#5
22WRF Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pea Ridge, FL Contributor Posts: 4,250	Re: Just a Constitutional question...no offense intended. Isn't that "West-by-God-Virginia?????? __________________ NRA GOA CCRKBA Happiness is a warm barrel

09-18-2009, 06:39 PM	#6
navis128 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,392	Re: Just a Constitutional question...no offense intended. I'm not a Constitutional Lawyer and only referenced some of the history books I have around, but from the sound of it, Unionists just went a head and formed a state that was admitted in 1863. Surely after the war and that period of annomosity, surely they took the time to clear that up. What a mess this could be.

09-18-2009, 06:42 PM	#7
kingnothingugm V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: FL Posts: 274	Re: Just a Constitutional question...no offense intended. Lincoln recognized WV as a state before the Civil War officially started...but the Supreme Court's final ruling wasn't until 1870. Either way VA did not consent to the release of it's territories to the Union. __________________ Freedom is not being able to do what you want, whenever you feel like it. Freedom is being willing to die defending your right to do so. -- Me Those who fight deserve our respect, wether they win or lose. -- Me

09-18-2009, 06:48 PM	#8
kingnothingugm V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: FL Posts: 274	Re: Just a Constitutional question...no offense intended. Quick word. As I said...I mean no offense...but...each state FREELY entered into a Union. These states existed as sovereign entities before said Union was conceived. As each state entered freely and intact it seems logical that each state could also leave freely and intact. It was a voluntary agreement, after all. But for the Union, which was created by the states, to deny that state it's rightful territory is like the child punishing the parent. __________________ Freedom is not being able to do what you want, whenever you feel like it. Freedom is being willing to die defending your right to do so. -- Me Those who fight deserve our respect, wether they win or lose. -- Me

09-18-2009, 06:54 PM	#9
kingnothingugm V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: FL Posts: 274	Re: Just a Constitutional question...no offense intended. Also...trying to keep topic wander to a minimum...I am not trying to argue the legality of any states right to succeed(spelling?). I just want to have a friendly discussion on your opinions of the current topic. Also, Navis< I was told you might be able to help with another post I have here. Please look at General Discussion and my "oddball question"...Thanks! I do appreciate your opinion! __________________ Freedom is not being able to do what you want, whenever you feel like it. Freedom is being willing to die defending your right to do so. -- Me Those who fight deserve our respect, wether they win or lose. -- Me

09-18-2009, 08:33 PM	#12
USMARINE1884 Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 35	Re: Just a Constitutional question...no offense intended. It is all in the "necessary and proper clause" with the implied powers of congress. They deemed that during a civil war that any state that wanted to split and start its own state and provide its own troops for the Union was ok. Is it really well no its not but the fed gov seems to not care too much. I am surprised there is no north/south Maryland .... __________________ Andrew R. Ingram (USMCR) WIA Operation Iraqi Freedom Fallujah Iraq

09-19-2009, 08:19 AM	#13
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,648	Re: Just a Constitutional question...no offense intended. I could be totally wrong here, but think on this. My understanding is Virginia seceded from the Union. The area that became West (by God) Virginia said, "We ain't no damn secessionists", and seceded from Virginia. Now, since Virginia left first, Constitutional requirements did not apply to a piece of Virginia leaving Virginia and re-entering the Union. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

09-19-2009, 08:37 AM	#14
kingnothingugm V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: FL Posts: 274	Re: Just a Constitutional question...no offense intended. By violating the regulations set forth in the Constitution, I feel that the Fed forfeited it's own legitimacy. That would mean the Union itself was effectively null and void. Breach of contract? How can you leave or join something which doesn't exist? It was by force that the Union survived not because it was justified in it's actions, or legitimate. It was the schoolyard bully who forced the CSA to hand over its lunch money. __________________ Freedom is not being able to do what you want, whenever you feel like it. Freedom is being willing to die defending your right to do so. -- Me Those who fight deserve our respect, wether they win or lose. -- Me

09-19-2009, 09:02 AM	#15
Blackhawk Dave Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Denton, TX Posts: 593	Re: Just a Constitutional question...no offense intended. The winners make the rules. The North won, they set the rules, and accepted West Virginia. End of Story. As to Texas being able to break up, that was superceded when a new constitution was required. Interesting thing is that Texas submitted a new constitution based on the US constitution, and the Feds said we couldn't do that. Give too much power to the state. Now we have that unwealdy thing that has been amended hundreds of times. However, after watching what Washington has done, I'm glad we don't have that type of constitution for the state.

09-19-2009, 09:18 AM	#16
carver TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: DAV, Deep in the Pineywoods of East Texas, just west of Shreveport, LA Contributor Posts: 11,220	Re: Just a Constitutional question...no offense intended. It is my understanding that there are several states that never did actually join the union, their membership was never properly ratified because they could not agree on the letter of the law. As to WV, I have read a good bit about their true statehood, but am still in the dark as to wheather or not their statehood is leagal according to the Constitution. __________________ Y'all be safe now, ya hear! Lamentations Chapter 5: 1. Remember, O LORD, what is come upon us: consider, and behold our reproach. 2. Our inheritance is turned to strangers, our houses to aliens. 3. We are orphans and fatherless, our mothers [are] as widows. 5. Our necks [are] under persecution: we labour, [and] have no rest. 16. The crown is fallen [from] our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned! 21. Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

09-19-2009, 04:57 PM	#18
Terry_P Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: NH Posts: 2,513	Re: Just a Constitutional question...no offense intended. The Supreme Court decided and they are charged with interperting the constitution therefore your question is do you agree with the decision as it is legal the highest court in the land said so. If you read down a vote was taken and certified by the governor. http://supreme.justia.com/us/78/39/ __________________ NRA and NAHC Life "Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -Aristotle

09-20-2009, 06:20 AM	#19
user Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Northern piedmont of Va. and Middle of Nowhere, West Virginia Posts: 1,013	Re: Just a Constitutional question...no offense intended. At the time that the secession occurred, Virginia was not a member state of the U.S., and was treated by the U.S. as a foreign territory out of which a new state might be defined and recognized. The right of conquest gives the victor certain prerogatives, and we live in a conquered country. Virginia's participation in the United States dates from the readmission after the Great War between the United States and the Commonwealth, not ratification of the Constitution, and upon readmission, Virginia was legally presumed to have accepted the terms offered by the U.S., including recognition of W.Va. as a separate entity. __________________ ===== Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

09-20-2009, 08:33 AM	#20
yellerdawg Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 244	Re: Just a Constitutional question...no offense intended. Hello all and an interseting topic. It sure was kind of special the way this state (WV) was handled right before and after the war. Past procedures make for beer table debate, but West Virginia is a valid US state, and cannot (now) have that reversed or questioned under current law. I called a friend who is up on this stuff and he told me two reasons or facts that I should have written down...but is still a good thing to discuss.... I have had the good fortune to travel and work in all but one of our fifty states...and three time in Peurto Rico..... It was back in 80's...and all I remember at the time about WV was a deal going on with a town...because of the bad economy..it was bad too...the red cross...medical...etc was going to shut down and other things...well some leaders discovered or found out that they had the abillity to apply for foreign aid to repair or keep open a VITAL bridge to this place...and it actually went all the way forward that...the Soviet Union was going to supply funds to help this town/entity...and I believe at the last minute the Feds stepped in and fixed the bridge or what was needed....this was a true story and I think I will find out more...for my own memory.... I met good people in WV...but dearly miss VA and the good people there also.... regards,