Proper sight alignment

[RunningOnMT]

Wasn't sure what category to place this question in so I'll ask it here.

Went to the range today with a friend and along with my pistol I shot my 10/22 for the first time. Although it grouped well I couldn't seem to tie down the bull.

So when I came home I was looking over the manual that came with it. Saw an illustration that I'd seen before and found puzzling but just put it out of my mind.

I have seen this same instruction on other firearms and it just doesnt make sense to me. The illustration they show places the front sight bead in the groove with the top of the groove lined up with the top of the front site bead. Ok, no problem with that. But then it shows a target with the bullseye perched on top of the front sight blade/bead.

Now from the first time I learned to shoot as a kid up through the military I was taught that the front and rear sight should be lined up on the center point of the bull not on the bottom edge.

Using the illustration and instructions provided by Ruger makes no sense. Assuming the rifle was sighted that way and the object is to hit the center of the bull what happens when the size of the bullsyeye changes.

For example if shooting at at target with a one inch bullseye you would assume by their illustration that the rifle is sighted to place the shots in the center of the bull (or 1/2 inch up from the bottom edge) when lined up on the bottom of the bull. So then you are shooting at a target with a 2 inch bull and have sights lined up in the same manner..if the shots are one half inch above the bottom edge they will be low, if you follow me.

Can anyone clear up this confusion for me?

[johnlives4christ]

i also was puzzled at this, and always have disreggarded this notion and sighted my rifles/handguns in to exact point of aim. but i've seen this before and wondered how anyone could hit anything like that.

[kutaho]

I've come across that, tought one way,
then have the 'new world' manual
tell me something totally different.
Ain't gonna change the way i was tought.
I'm just gonna stay ignernt.

[Alpo]

This is the "6:00 hold". It is used for precision target shooting. If you use a center hold, and you misjudge just a little bit (easy to do, since half of your bullseye is covered by your sight), your group will be larger than necessary. If you perch your bullseye on top of the front sight, you will have the exact same sight picture each time. You will be shooting at the same target size (5" bull, 3" bull, doesn't matter, it will be the same for the whole match) at a known distance.

Y'all that can use a center hold, and hit with it, that's wonderful. Have at it. But there are lots of us'uns that use and like the 6:00 hold. Works real good for us.

[OBrien]

Originally Posted by Alpo

This is the "6:00 hold". It is used for precision target shooting. If you use a center hold, and you misjudge just a little bit (easy to do, since half of your bullseye is covered by your sight), your group will be larger than necessary. If you perch your bullseye on top of the front sight, you will have the exact same sight picture each time. You will be shooting at the same target size (5" bull, 3" bull, doesn't matter, it will be the same for the whole match) at a known distance.

Y'all that can use a center hold, and hit with it, that's wonderful. Have at it. But there are lots of us'uns that use and like the 6:00 hold. Works real good for us.

Said very well.

[delta13soultaker]

Yep...6 O'clock...also called "Lollipoping".

[Suicide*Ride]

I'm a lollipopper too..... rasberry Tootsie Pop!!

SR

[armedandsafe]

That is the way we were taught in the 40s and 50s. It wasn't until much later that the military scheme of using illustrative targets, rather than bullseye targets that the center of target point of aim caught on.

The factors involved remain the same, however. If you are sighted in for a given distance, you then have to move the sights off the "normal" point of aim when the distance changes. It doesn't matter if you are dighted in for center of bull or bottom of the bull, you still have to move your point of sight to get a center hit when the distance changes significantly.

The idea behind the 6 o'clock hold is that you will have to move your point of sight less in to your target vision as the distance increases and might not have to move it at all as the distance decreases, from your sighting in distance.

I did my 1000 yard competition using the 6 o'clock hold. I hunted with the 6 o'clock hold. I use the point-of-aim equals point-of-impact style with handguns.

Pops

[gdmoody]

Always used the 6:00 hold until shots are fired, then adjusted from that impact point.

[RunningOnMT]

Thanks all for your responses. Maybe I need to rethink my approach to sight picture. I will admit these old eyes tend to lose the front sight and it's position within the rear sight aperture on the dark background of the bullseye. That is at least half the problem with my marksmanship. The other half is the fact that my unsteady arms cause the front sight to "bob and weave" back and forth across the target.

[armedandsafe]

my unsteady arms cause the front sight to "bob and weave" back and forth across the target.

Squeeze when you are on it, hold when you are off it. (as the lady said to the sailor. )

Pops

[Islandboy]

A good and helpfull thread as I have never had any formal training, am self taught, and am not even near any "expertise" per se.
The 6 o'clock makes sense but having never heard of it never thought of it.
If I understand right, it would be holding the targeted impact point "perched" in the sight?
Got scopes, they are easy enough.
Perhaps if there are any other methods ya'll can chime in.

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by RunningOnMT

Thanks all for your responses. Maybe I need to rethink my approach to sight picture. I will admit these old eyes tend to lose the front sight and it's position within the rear sight aperture on the dark background of the bullseye. That is at least half the problem with my marksmanship. The other half is the fact that my unsteady arms cause the front sight to "bob and weave" back and forth across the target.

That bobbing and weaving is called the "wobble zone".

Everyone has one, regardless of firearm type or shooting position. Even over a rest, our heartbeat makes a tiny wobble we can't usually see.

Everyone also almost always has very consistent wobble pattern with a given firearm. Your wobble with a 10/22 Friday will be pretty much the same as it was Monday. The only time your wobble will really change is if you try to outsmart it...then you'll be just chasing your own bullets around the bulls-eye.

These are techniques I was taught and teach.

Serious wobble is overcome by three efforts:

1. Seek the most supported position practical in a given situation (make the wobble zone smaller). This usually is 98% of the solution.

2. Getting "natural point of aim" reduces wobble too, by taking the job from your arms to your entire mass. Avoid aiming with arms: aim with your whole body.

Many shooters, handgun and rifle, push the sights on point by applying pressure with their hands, via the arms or shoulders. You'll see their shoulders and/or lower back twist left or right. They'll raise and lower their elbows for elevation. This is all creating wobble.

Getting "natural point of aim"...windage...If you're laying prone, and need to move the sights to the right, your butt should go left. If you're sitting, your butt would slide left in the seat. Standing, your heels would shuffle left. Elevation...in prone, you scoot your put forward or away to lower or raise point, respectively, of impact. Sitting, by changing angle of the spine. Standing, by tilting the body simultaneously with knees and hips.

3. Time the shot to fire when the sight passes over the desired point of aim. That means knowing your wobble pattern so you can begin squeezing before the sight gets there. (Many people will try to pull the trigger when the sight is on point of aim. This either 1. causes the shot to be too late or 2. ends up as trigger "slapping"; either way it equals missing.)

Hope some of that helps.

[*LIKTOSHOOT*]

Never knew there was a different way. When I shoot rimfire 50/100 I use a 45x Leupold, it allows me to cut the 1 inch bull in quarters; for a as you call it center. When the first shot strikes, that will become the aiming point if true.

Wobble, we called it cutting the 8. Once learned, heart rate at any speed is controlled.

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by *LIKTOSHOOT*

Once learned, heart rate at any speed is controlled.

Please define what you mean by "heart rate is controlled".

And please explain how heart rate is controlled?

[*LIKTOSHOOT*]

Delta, heart rate is not controlled as in BPM. Knowing when to shoot is. Cutting the 8 is the control, I`m sure you know this system.

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by *LIKTOSHOOT*

Delta, heart rate is not controlled as in BPM.

Thank you.

That's what I thought you meant, but if taken literally...

A lot of people really will think you mean control your heart rate, literally, when phrased as such. Too many ninja movies.

We use the words "manage" or "management" too avoid confusion for things we can't literally control, or fully control realistically. (As in, "to manage the affects of rapid heart beats..." or "recoil management" etc.)

Just a matter of wording.

Cutting the eight, for right-hand fire, as I've heard it is bringing the front sight back inside the black by raising and shifting it up and right over the 8 o'clock. Lots of new shooters are inclined to make a habit of the opposite; they lower the sight onto the target, go too low, have to shift and raise, and waste time and motion.

[cadamson]

Im glad I stumbled onto this thread. I never understood the 6:00 hold until now. Makes perfect sence now after reading it.