American vs. non-American

[hogger129]

So I want to have a little debate here about the pros and cons of American made military rifles vs. non-American made military rifles. Such as the M16, M1 Carbine, M1 Garand, M14, M4, etc, etc, as opposed to non-American made such as the AK-47, AKM, AK-74, the Chinese copies, the 5.56 chambered AK-styles, other styles of assault rifles that aren't the usual US-spec or Russian-spec arms. Which is better in certain ways? Which is not better in certain ways? Which do you prefer? Let's just keep it clean and friendly please. Doesn't necessarily have to be absolutely "rifles" either. Let's discuss the assault rifles/machine guns too. Like the M60, as opposed to like the RPK.

Which do you think is the best assault rifle? Which is the best plain old rifle? Which is the best machine gun?

Whoops. Just noticed I put this in the wrong section if the moderator wouldn't mind moving it to the correct one. Thanks.

[carver]

I persnoally think that the American made guns are of much better quality. That does not mean that they are better. .308 is .308 in any gun. My problem is the cost of American made guns. Colt made rifles in the Military style will cost you $3K+, while something like the Saiga will cost you around $600. It doesn't matter to the bullet, if the gun functions, then the Saiga in .308 is just as good as the Colt in .308. Maybe not as pretty, but just as effective.

[Helix_FR]

I also agree, the American made weapons are more finely crafted but along with that they are also more complex. Non American military weapons are more rude and crude and are based on much simpler mechanics and tolerances. Many things have to come together properly for some of the American made guns to work right. There is a trade off though. You'll also find that the american made guns are more accurate and have better range b/c of there complex actions allow them to be and use every bit of energy in a efficient way. But if I wanted to dig a hole, drive a tent spike, toss it in a muddy lake to wash it off and come out shooting. Grab me a AK.

[Lotsdragon]

Own two chinese made sks's you can see the casting marks on the reciever and bolt, no milling there, but the go boom everytime they are supposed to.On the other hand my remington 7400 has to be the prettiest weapon I have ever seen.It too has never failed to fire and its in the 30-06 caliber. I paid a HECK of a lot more for it than I did for the sks's but if the chit hit the fan I would depend on my remington.

[Shorty Bang]

I am by far a red blooded red stated American, but our fellow patriot R. Lee Ermey did a show on this. With a lot of talk and jib jab the M16 won over the AK so said R. Lee....but you could tell he really knew the AK was a better rifle when it came down to reliability, care, and "knockdown power". The M16 won on full auto accuracy, rate of fire, and being American. I would go with the M16 due to the shear number of bullets one can fire, and the accuracy.

[CampingJosh]

Why have we only talked about American vs. Russian? Why have we left out European made guns like the FAL?

I'd take an FAL over any of the American or Soviet surplus guns.

[delta13soultaker]

The only forces that carry AK-47's are the one's that can't afford M4's, R-4's, G-3's, FAL's etc.

The Soviets ditched the 7.62x39mm back in 1980. The M43 round has the terminal ballistics of a 9mm handgun. It sucks.

They went to 5.45x39mm and it is on par with our 5.56mm NATO.

Forget all the Vietnam M16 stories...that weapon may as well be a musket. The most lightweight, reliable, effective small arm you can get is a modern M4; it's got half a century of AR evolution behind it and going strong...we'll see if the SCAR can take that title.

Comblock and Eastern rifles are built to be exported to poor countries to arm massive forces of poorly trained uneducated conscripts who'll outnumber their foe 10-1.

Western rifles are built for small, well trained, volunteer forces that will be operating outnumbered 10-1.

It's hard to look at modern American military hardware without including Europe...a very large chunk of our weapons is inspired by, licensed by, designed by, or imported to us from Belgium, Sweden, Norway, Italy, etc etc.

The world is a small place: Israel mostly uses our M4, they licensed their Galil to South Africa as the R4 who is trying to arm with the CR-21 while exporting their R4 all over South America to serve beside and against M4's, Ak's, and FN's, and the Mexican army below our own border is armed with German G-3's, the Jamaicans carry British SA-80's.....and all of it by the way is chambered for yankee 5.56mm. Even China is switching over to 9mm NATO, which we all took from the Nazi's.

To give the AK it's do, there are 96 common rifles inspired by the 47 and 74, including Sig Sauer, Kel-Tec, FN, etc.

But never overlook this: You can't find a free country defended by an AK-74.

[uzim16]

I used AK Chinese copies, don't like them at all. It's reliable, but not that much as the rumor. I think rifles using gas piston like G36 should be better than AK.

[kingnothingugm]

I think the answer to this question in't dependant upon the firearm...it's dependant upon the opperator of said firearm(maint. experience with the firearm, preference...etc.etc). I personally love American made. In .308, 5.56 or .223, 9mm or .45. Give me American every time...although an sks is a must have.

[K1D_5150]

Should one stop and consider, the AK's we have here that are worth a dang are hybrids of american and com-block parts, to be legal with all the goodies it was meant to come with. I say get an AKM AND an AR. The AKM is hard to beat as a truck gun, as to the fact that if you are in town or having to jump out of your vehicle with a firearm you'll more than likely be within 30 yds of the threat, and you can poke through stuff the 5.56 wont. And the AR, particularly the M4 styled, is hard to beat as it can reach out and touch threats at a better distance than what is usually feasible with most patrol rifles running an intermediate cartridge, and at a greater rate of fire while sustaining superior accuracy. Two different schools of thought and each is the best of what they were designed for (in my humble opinion, if it counts for anything) and each is a legend in the world community. God bless our second amendment rights, and spoil the socialist agendas that would try to defeat them.

[jack404]

Ok this is like comparing apples and brake pads
two whole different worlds

take the USA,

manufacturing costs are not a thought of item any more
R&D way way out in front
you considered other things like ammo carrying capacity
maintinace in the feild and service contracts ( read as ongoing income )
income from these weapons is a big factor , maybe more than most realise

the Soviet considered least ammount of machining to produce
one of thier major refits was to allow a feild factory production
(one factory was sent to vietnam in the early days but stolen off the 3 railway cars in china by the chinese)

simple feild cleaning and repair or throw it away and get another was the attitude
income was never a issue and so many "options" where never included as compared to the US rifles

as for China
its a AK or AKM clone
as are Tobuks and the mid east varients

so it boils down in recent times to a 1960;s design that had 5-6 revamps on the US side and a 1940's design with about the same number of revamps but for differing purposes

its a differential of economic needs and political thinking reflected in a product

but both are still in the same base cycle of revamping pretty old designs

other places are looking at more modern designs

like the P90
M88 Styer ( ok but not great trust me)
the PDW's

various bullpup designs to give a smaller profile of the soldier while allowing full length barrels to allow the smaller 5.56 mm rounds and others to hit with the required force to be effective at the expected conflict ranges

different thoughts behind the design again

while a lot of thoughts are now turning to advanced munitions and thier delivery such as metalstorm and the Russian version Naskoi

Naskoi has a lot of advantages

its a combined projectile and explosive munition, like a grenade

set the range, fire, and the thing will explode at that range, showering fragments in a kill zone of about 3 meters radius ( 2m to ensure a 90% kill)

max effective range is only 250 meters but most firefights they expect are below this range

it will not be a standard weapon but looking at maybe half a squad armed with these and half regular battle rifles

metal storm is a financial based weapons system

the idea there is to GIVE AWAY THE RIFLE, but sell the ammo in its preloaded format, this one i have worked on a lot as its a aussie idea but now there are so many varients but still awaiting a major US contract''

so what is best?

i'd say the one you have in your hand and know how to use and have ammo for and ongoing supplies

of the modern battle rifles my choice in order would be

M4
AR10(7.62, Modded)
AK47 (Modded)
Styer M88
AKM (Modded)
M16 (Modded)
FN FAL L1A1 B1 (F1 with 12G under attachment similar to M203, Modded)
modded means modified to take avadnced sights s in the M4 and M88 styer

beyond this it really dont matter in choice its how well i use what i have that will count.

i like the stopping power of the 7.62's

but most are unweildly, heavy and the ammo size and weight issues are a big consideration

another 1.87 cents worth from down under

cheers

jack

( some of our toys)

[Big ugly]

Me personally I dont like the M16 type platform. It may be reliable, for a while. But as soon as the damn thing gets dirty it is prone to jams. I have heard people talk up their AR's and I just dont feel it. The 223 is a good hot round and the 308 is also. But the M16 platform when it heats up if fails. For me it has to be all about maintaining a rate of fire. As said in another post on this topic the Users of the American Equipment is liable to be out numbered. But in a hot climate sustaining heavy fire using hot rounds like the 223 and the 308 in the M16 platform is asking for problems.

[wpage]

The M4 is a nice platform from the m family...http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...XRcCaiPZhWUbJg

I like the M1 garand. The original and still and still champion...
The one that one the big one WWII
God Bless John Garand!

[sorral]

I saw a show on The Military Channel, a countdown of the top 10 battle rifles of all time. The M16/AR platform came in second, but the AK came in a hands down first place. What other rifle can you put a handful of sand in the open action...work it a time or two..and the darn thing shoots?!

I personally went with the AR platform, I like the modular nature of the design.. and the "cool factor" slightly influenced me too.

My only thought is....as long as it is built in the USA, who cares where the design is from. As long as American workers are getting paid for building the componants and assembly it is then an American rifle.

[old semperfi]

someone else said it-apples and brake pads? the ar type and most communist weapons are meant to be used by largely both trained and untrained personel. they arent as accurate as the guns made by the free world such as the ars and l1a1s our rifles are meant to be used by riflemen that can clean and care for their guns.i must admit that the aks and their derivitives are much more dependable in extreem harsh conditions.they do go boom clean or otherwise. old semperfi

[wpage]

Those AK's are crude and inacurrate. Give me a american rifle any time they are accurate reliable and for long and short range the way to go...
Especially for marksman.
What collector needs a gun with 30 round clips that cant hit the side of a barn at 300 yards.
Thats what you want something you can waste 90 rounds and hit nothing like those bozo's that produce nothing but wasted brass at the range.
Better to have one good bullseye than all that noise and a clean target with that foreign trash. It even looks like the garbage it is stocks made of pallet wood and pressed recycled ramblers.

[cycloneman]

G3, M14, Fn Fal. These are in a class by themselves. Top of the list as far as i am concerned. G3 being on top for me.

The ak47 to me represents our foes. Not that i would not use one in a pinch but it would be last thing avaliable. It demands respect for what it is and i understand many people enjoy shooting them here in America. Strange hugh? However I personally hate the damn thing.

My take on the mini 14 is that it is a great gun for putting ammo down range. Not all that accurate but it will eat anything. You dont even have to trim your cases just reload till the necks burn out and the gun will shoot.

AR's can be quirky but when you get a good one it is real nice.

sl8 german manufacturer by hk, daw gone good rifle.

I think the Germans, Americans, Isreal, Brits and even italy have it

[islenos]

It doesn't matter where the rifle is made, there is good and bad in every design.

The only thing that matters at all, is the person behind the trigger.

[Old Grump]

Funny, I never heard a gun go bang with an accent. It shoots or it doesn't, It is reliable or it isn't, it's accurate or it isn't. I buy American when I can because I try to protect American jobs and support my friends and neighbors making products locally. Major reason why Walmart doesn't see me in their stores anymore is they seem to have given up on American products.

When it comes down to it My guns come in all kinds of flavors from American, to German, Belgian, Japanese (my Weatherby) and I have shot guns from Italy, Brazil and Spain. They all went bang and most of them made me grin and giggle. All of us on the same ball of mud, rock and water. By the way my cheapest and lowest quality handgun was made in Massachusetts.

Good thing I don't have to learn the languages of the ammo manufacturers I shoot. I can handle the British accent alright but Turkish and Greek are beyond this old dinosaur brain and forget Czech. I used to know some Russian 45 years ago but it kind of drifted away with my common sense and my stamina.

[Big Shrek]

Right now Heckler & Koch have just revolutionized the M-16 platform.

The 416 & 417 flat out make the M-16/AR15 OBSOLETE.
As they have the beat-me whip-me capability of AK-47's, yet still have the precision of the best M-16/AR-15's out there.

Once you seen the vid on the H&K website...you know the debate over M-16 vs AK-47 is OVER.
The answer is now NIETHER, get a HK 416/417.

[carver]

Originally Posted by Big Shrek

Right now Heckler & Koch have just revolutionized the M-16 platform.

The 416 & 417 flat out make the M-16/AR15 OBSOLETE.
As they have the beat-me whip-me capability of AK-47's, yet still have the precision of the best M-16/AR-15's out there.

Once you seen the vid on the H&K website...you know the debate over M-16 vs AK-47 is OVER.
The answer is now NIETHER, get a HK 416/417.

Sure would love to own one!

[hogger129]

Originally Posted by Big Shrek

Right now Heckler & Koch have just revolutionized the M-16 platform.

The 416 & 417 flat out make the M-16/AR15 OBSOLETE.
As they have the beat-me whip-me capability of AK-47's, yet still have the precision of the best M-16/AR-15's out there.

Once you seen the vid on the H&K website...you know the debate over M-16 vs AK-47 is OVER.
The answer is now NIETHER, get a HK 416/417.

Never fired the 416 or 417. I really like H&K's pistols. As far as their pistols go, they are dead tough and accurate.

[wpage]

No doubt there is much good out there...
American is the best. No doubt. If you disagree.
Tell it to the Marines!!

[hogger129]

Originally Posted by wpage

No doubt there is much good out there...
American is the best. No doubt. If you disagree.
Tell it to the Marines!!

Definitely. The H&K 416 and 417 obviously look like they are modeled after the M4.

I think whoever designed the M4 had it right if all these other manufacturers are making rifles that are almost the same thing.

In terms of pistols, the M1911 has been around for 99 years and still going strong. A couple of people I worked with who were in the military qualified with these old Colts that they said were "rattleboxes." This was back in the 80's right around the time they started issuing the M9. One guy said the "rattlebox" he shot, which was a surplus 1911 from WWII times, was more accurate than a brand new M9.

As far as the rifles went, he was issued the M16. He has an M1-A. One thing he said was that the M16 was lighter, and used smaller rounds so you could carry more ammo. It was a better service rifle. But in terms of all out effectiveness, he said the M1-A is better. More power, more accurate and it was less prone to problems.

My uncle that was in Nam trained with an M14 in basic and they were issued the original M16A1's. He hated em. He said they would pick up enemy weapons all the time and use em because they didn't malfunction like the early M16s did.

I think they have gotten a lot better though. Now they're up the M16A4 I think? The guys that were over in Iraq said they barely saw any M16s. The ones their unit had were M4's.

Funny thing is that the M1911 and I think the M4 were both Colt designs weren't they? I could be wrong on the M4 because I always thought the M16 was designed by Armalite and manufactured by Colt.

Springfield made some of the best ones too. Their 1911s are some of the finest pistols there are. And they made the M1903, M1 Garand and M14 rifles.

[Big Shrek]

Originally Posted by sorral

What other rifle can you put a handful of sand in the open action...work it a time or two..and the darn thing shoots?!

The Heckler & Koch 416 & 417 that came out last year are making the M-16 obsolete.

The precision of an M-16 with the durability of an AK. The Fight's over, H&K won.
The 416 is chambered in 5.56 Nato.
The 417 is chambered in 7.62
http://www.hk-usa.com/military_produ...16_general.asp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsgstaO18jY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObXZMepn3SI