colt single action army

[yrralguthrie]

The local pawn shop here in town (only one) has a Colt single action army serial number 192xxx which indicates it was made in 1900. The first year that Colt specified this gun for smokeless powder.

The gun is nickle plated which I think is correct.

I've been told twice that all of these were shipped with 7.5 in. barrels. This one is shorter than that. I've also been told many were shipped back to Colt to have the barrel shortened.

My question: Is there a way to tell if Colt did the work on this gun? I've seen some letters from Colt that don't list the barrel length. If a letter can't be obtained from Colt showing the barrel shortening how does that affect value?

ljg

[oneshot onekill]

Well, first, who ever told you they only came with 7.5" barrels must be smokin' crack. It could be 5.5" or 4.75", as well as any number of custom lengths from the Factory. On the 4.75" the information stamped on the top of the barrel will be stamped on 2 lines instead of one long line.

The problem with SAA's is two-fold. First, many have been modified after leaving the Factory. That seriously detracts from the value. Second, there are some pretty good fakes out there that are generally only worth around $200-$300 if they're nicely done. It takes a certain amount of expertise to not get "taken" when buying First Generation SAA's. How much do they want for it?

[Jim K]

Some Colt SAA's were nickel plated and are more valuable, all else being equal, than blue and c/h guns. The result is that quite a few have been plated in more recent years, so one needs some experience and a good eye to spot a fake. One thing to be suspicious of plating that is too good; any nickel plated gun that old that has had any use at all will not have a perfect finish.

If you can take pictures and post them, we can be of more help.

Jim

[oldcruiser]

Ist generation Colts (civilian models) offered many barrel lengths.

1st generation Colts (U.S. models) were produced with 7 1/2" barrels. There were several of these that later had the barrel shortened to 5 1/2", and are referred to as "altered models", or commonly called "artillery models". There were no nickel plated U.S. models. I have collected, bought and sold U.S. single action armies for the past 45 years.

The pawn shop most likely has a civilian model, and pictures and better description would help. Prior to purchasing, it would be very wise for you to have someone very well versed in 1st generations to check it out. I have seen too many pay way too much for what they were actually getting.

[yrralguthrie]

Thanks for your answers. Well thought out.

I'll see about a picture, but don't know if it will do any good. Pretty hard to get a picture good enough to spot a renickle and that's my main concern now that you've cleared up the barrel length.

The finish is good for a modern gun. The finish is great if it's 110 years old. If the finish is original the gun wasn't used. An odd item is the cylinder pin. It has marks on it like it had been pulled by pliers.

He wants $5000.00 for it. It seems to my uneducated mind that if it's real that's low.

I won't be buying it. It just doesn't feel right. I think the pawn shop owner believes it's real however. I don't know where he got it. But no providence and even if an "expert" said it was real somewhere down the line when I decided it had appreciated enough I would sell it and I'd have to get another expert that might have a different opinion. Poor risk.

ljg

[jondar]

Quote: There were no nickled U. S. revolvers."

In Keith's book "Sixguns" he states that the Indian scouts who served alongside the troops were issued 1873 Model Colts with nickel finish. The reason given was that the Indians took such abominable care of their weapons that the nickel finish would better prevent rusting. Was he mistaken?

[oldcruiser]

Originally Posted by jondar

Quote: There were no nickled U. S. revolvers."

In Keith's book "Sixguns" he states that the Indian scouts who served alongside the troops were issued 1873 Model Colts with nickel finish. The reason given was that the Indians took such abominable care of their weapons that the nickel finish would better prevent rusting. Was he mistaken?

Out of 37,000 produced...no nickel.

[jondar]

Sorry, I didn't understand your reply. Are you saying only 37,000 U. S. models were produced.

[oneshot onekill]

Originally Posted by yrralguthrie

Thanks for your answers. Well thought out.

I'll see about a picture, but don't know if it will do any good. Pretty hard to get a picture good enough to spot a renickle and that's my main concern now that you've cleared up the barrel length.

The finish is good for a modern gun. The finish is great if it's 110 years old. If the finish is original the gun wasn't used. An odd item is the cylinder pin. It has marks on it like it had been pulled by pliers.

He wants $5000.00 for it. It seems to my uneducated mind that if it's real that's low.

I won't be buying it. It just doesn't feel right. I think the pawn shop owner believes it's real however. I don't know where he got it. But no providence and even if an "expert" said it was real somewhere down the line when I decided it had appreciated enough I would sell it and I'd have to get another expert that might have a different opinion. Poor risk.

ljg

$5000.00??? That's NOT low. From what I've seen lately that's about average retail for a GOOD regular, unmolested SAA with a lot of original finish. I would never spend that much on a Colt SAA in a Pawn Shop unless the Pawn Shop was known for having that kind of gun regularly... and I had a LOT of knowledge about SAA's.

I got bit by a fake about 15 years ago and spent the next 10 years learning as much as I could about the Colt SAA. I paid $1000 for the gun and thought I stole it. Turns out it was just a good fake. I was lucky in that I was able to get my $1000 back by bringing it to a...... wait for it..... PAWN SHOP! The people at the Pawn Shop called in an expert and he authenticated it as genuine and they couldn't give me the $1000 fast enough! Understand that I don't feel I misrepresented the gun. I told them that I had bought it for $1000 and was hoping to get my $1000 back out of it.

[oldcruiser]

Originally Posted by jondar

Sorry, I didn't understand your reply. Are you saying only 37,000 U. S. models were produced.

Yep, the government ordered slightly less than 37,000. The new Colt was a big hit during the Indian wars. Well, with the exception of Custer. He carried a pair of Webleys, and he eventually got what he deserved.

The term Single Action Army was born, and is applied today to Cavalry and Civilian models alike by many people.

[jondar]

Well, I guess the question is whether the revolvers issued to the Indian scouts are military (U. S. on lower frame panel, left side) or civilian. I certainly don't know except they were issued by the Army to the scouts. Here is an excerpt from a poster on another gun forum:

"Another variation of the Cavalry issue Colt .45 single action army is referred to as the "Colt Indian Scout and Police" issued to the Crow & other tribe Indian scouts & police, needless to say. They are readily identified because they were nickle plated for rough service and they were exclusively issued to Indians, since they were not prone to cleaning & oiling their arms. Remington was also contracted to manufacture a quanity of single action model 1875, plated also, for the Indian police and marked accordingly. Any of these are rare & quite expensive also now. An excellent example of this is a very often reprinted photo of Custer sitting in front of his tent with Bloody Knife, Goose & Little Sioux each holding Nickled plated Colts and Custer's Remington rolling block rifle is resting on the ground next to a Bowie knife."

I guess we'll never know. A mystery within an enigma.

[yrralguthrie]

I previewed one of these photo's and they looked small enough.
This is the colt in question.

The colt on the grips shows some wear.
The cylinder pin has been grabbed with pliers.
The finish in person looks better than the photos.
The inside of the cylinder with the loading gate open looks more worn than in the photos.
The hammer is not plated.
The trigger is not plated.

[yrralguthrie]

The last two photos

[oldcruiser]

Originally Posted by jondar

Well, I guess the question is whether the revolvers issued to the Indian scouts are military (U. S. on lower frame panel, left side) or civilian. I certainly don't know except they were issued by the Army to the scouts. Here is an excerpt from a poster on another gun forum:

"Another variation of the Cavalry issue Colt .45 single action army is referred to as the "Colt Indian Scout and Police" issued to the Crow & other tribe Indian scouts & police, needless to say. They are readily identified because they were nickle plated for rough service and they were exclusively issued to Indians, since they were not prone to cleaning & oiling their arms. Remington was also contracted to manufacture a quanity of single action model 1875, plated also, for the Indian police and marked accordingly. Any of these are rare & quite expensive also now. An excellent example of this is a very often reprinted photo of Custer sitting in front of his tent with Bloody Knife, Goose & Little Sioux each holding Nickled plated Colts and Custer's Remington rolling block rifle is resting on the ground next to a Bowie knife."

I guess we'll never know. A mystery within an enigma.

Pertaining to US Cavalry orders, I am unaware of any nickel having been ordered by the military. Their are two ordered types, the original 7 1/2" barrel, and the altered to 5 1/2" barrel. Finishes were a combination of blue and case hardened. Only one caliber was ordered, it being .45 Long Colt as we now call it.

The revolvers you reference were after the Department of Interior (think politicians telling the military how to do it)was formed. These were two distinct groups who usually didn't play well together all the time. They (DoI) were most likely to have been the driving force behind outfitting the later scouts during that time. They were instrumental in driving wedges within the military, and for the way Indian scouts were finally treated.

Without totally hi-jacking the original thread, the revolver in the pawn shop is most likely a civillian model or a refinished US. Pictures and a better description would determine what it actually is, and a ballpark value.

[oldcruiser]

The pawn shop model is a civilian model, and in my opinion is overpriced at 5K. The dealer probably has less than half that wrapped up in it.

You can get a better idea of what 5K can buy: http://www.gunsinternational.com

Run a search on Colt SAA revolvers.

[oneshot onekill]

Originally Posted by yrralguthrie

The last two photos

Definitely looks like a refinished SAA to me. Also looks like the hammer may be a replacement.

[Jim K]

Theoretical discussions on the number of Colts that can dance on the head of an Indian Scout are wonderful things, but that gun is not. It has been polished and corners rounded, then plated with what appears to be chrome, not nickel. IMHO, it is not worth even $1000, let alone $5000.

Jim

[yrralguthrie]

Now that you point it out, it's pretty obvious it has been polished and refinished. I never thought about the process of refinishing, and can see where it would require polishing and rounding to remove nicks.

But explain about the chrome vs. nickel, why do you say that? I actually believe you, I just want to be able to tell the difference myself.

ljg

[Jim K]

I can't be sure from just pictures, but many people who try to fake old guns have them plated with chrome, a cheaper metal than nickel, plus there are a lot of places doing chrome plating because of the auto restoration business, where not many do nickel.

Both metals have a silvery color, but chrome has a "cold" look, with bluish tinges, where nickel is "warmer" with more of a yellowish tinge. There is no real good way to explain except to have looked at a lot of guns and, I admit, sometimes I find it hard to tell the difference in some lights. But Colt did NOT chrome plate SAA's (or AFAIK anything else), so a chromed Colt is a refinished fake.

Jim

[yrralguthrie]

The answers in this thread made me curious so I did some searching on the internet. "chrome vs nickel plating"

Turns out that it is not all that hard to tell them apart.

There are two types of chrome plating; hard chrome which is thicker say 1/1000 of an inch. Used on wear parts like the inside of a barrel. It's not really harder but wears better because it's thicker.

Then regular chrome plating which is millionths of an inch thick. The item is nickel plated first for protection and shine, then the chrome is applied to keep the nickel plating from tarnishing.

And as has been said the nickel plated item will have a easily seen yellowish cast to it. Looks kind of silver/blue. Soft (not literally) a soft look. The chrome plate makes the item look very hard, with a bluish cast and a deep shine. Very reflective.

So the gun in question was likely nickel plated originally, had some severe wear. It was then polished, but all the nickel wasn't removed and then chrome plated. Not even the correct way to chrome plate.

Excellent post for me.

ljg

[Jim K]

Better to get the education before shelling out five grand.

Jim

[reinhard]

This I don't understand ,if this gun was for sale here the asking price would be probably somwhere in the region between 1000$ and 1500$ and this includes import taxes,I payed 3500$ for the long flutes engraved single action with ivory grips , I cant believe that this guy wants 5000.$ for this gun and to tell you the truth the last purchase by me was a colt that was thousand dollars more than this 5K colt,but that was a mint condition pre/post war colt in his original box

Reinhard

[Jim K]

Well, the asking price can be anything. The seller could have asked a million dollars. The getting price is something else. If he asks a million and gets it, he can retire. If he doesn't get it, then he will reduce the price until he reaches a point at which the gun will sell.

In this case, the seller either knowingly boosted the price, hoping some sucker would bite, or he really had no idea what he had and was asking top dollar based on what he had seen in a price guide. Either way, the old saying "caveat emptor" applies.

Just FWIW, I don't think that gun was originally plated at all. I think it was a blue and case colored gun with a worn and rusted finish, so someone polished it down and had it plated. I doubt there are two different plating metals; more than likely a so-so plating job makes the finish look uneven.

Jim

[muddober]

Perhaps Jim has a better screen than me but the gun does not look refinished to me. That being said I would not bet $5000.00 on what I see in pictures meaning I would have to see the gun live and even then I have been be fooled.

Ron

[reinhard]

for close inspection you need to take your pictures outdoors
picture of a 1880 original nickeled single action(not my property)