Buy C&R then Sporterize?

[Contenderizer]

I am thinking of buying a Mauser and sporterizing same. Should I buy it with my C&R, or does that create a problem when I convert it? I plan on replacing the stock and trigger.

I'm guessing I should keep it off my bound book and just buy it outright.

[oneshot onekill]

The only way I could imagine there being any issue would be if you converted it to fire a round that has been more recently developed than in the last 50 years. Even then it would only affect you when you sell it. But I'm not an expert or BATF. Check with them.

[deadin]

I'm guessing I should keep it off my bound book and just buy it outright.

I hate to post my answer as it will probably start one of those long fruitless discussions about just how a C&R license should be used about buying" on or off" the book.

Anyway, by changing major parts (i.e. the stock) you will cause the gun to lose it's C&R status. Were it me I would just log it out of my book as "No longer qualifies as a C&R due to modifications", or something similar.
(Kind of like how a FFL01 logs a gun out of his dealers book as being transferred to his private collection.)

[Jim K]

You might be better just buying the gun and avoid the C&R issue. BATFE takes the position that the C&R license is for collecting curios and relics, not buying them to modify or sell. If you do decide to sporterize a gun you bought under the license, I agree with deadin about just logging it off the C&R book, since it is no longer part of a collection (not being a "curio/relic" any more).

But note that if you buy the gun with the intent of sporterizing it and selling it, you would be considered not just a dealer but a manufacturer as well if anyone wanted to push the issue.

Jim

[Contenderizer]

Thanks Jim, I think you and I are reading off the same page. My intention would be to keep the gun and pass it on to grandkids eventually.

[Jim K]

Of course it depends on the rifle, but we know that "sporterizing" milsurps, even if done well, usually harms the value. (Ex. A Springfield Model 1861 in nice shape brings $2500+; one chopped down and reamed for a shotgun brings $250 or so. If I wanted to pass on a nice Mauser, say a K.98k, I wouldn't touch it other than cleaning.

Jim

[jjk308]

Don't!

I've done it a few times and regretted it. It's way more work and money than you can imagine to turn a milsurp into a half way competent sporter. Making a mauser suitable for a scope alone requires a low forged/welded bolt handle, a cut in the receiver for the low handle, a low scope safety or trigger with safety, and drilling and tapping for mounts with a scope jig. Add a decent stock, cutting and crowning the barrel and rebluing and it gets pretty pricey.

Do it cheap and you'll end up with an incompetent junker worth much less than the original milsurp.

Go to the nearest Walmart amd save yourself about $300.

[Contenderizer]

Originally Posted by Jim K

Of course it depends on the rifle, but we know that "sporterizing" milsurps, even if done well, usually harms the value. (Ex. A Springfield Model 1861 in nice shape brings $2500+; one chopped down and reamed for a shotgun brings $250 or so. If I wanted to pass on a nice Mauser, say a K.98k, I wouldn't touch it other than cleaning.

Jim

Jim, You are right, of course. I guess I was hoping (like may of us do) to find a sweet deal on a old milsurp with a beat-up stock but good action and rifling. Seems all of the deals are long gone.


jjk308 probably has the best advice .... Walmart - especially given that I am holding out for a 6.5X55 Swede

Thanks everyone.

[Big Shrek]

Originally Posted by Contenderizer

Jim, You are right, of course. I guess I was hoping (like may of us do) to find a sweet deal on a old milsurp with a beat-up stock but good action and rifling. Seems all of the deals are long gone.


jjk308 probably has the best advice .... Walmart - especially given that I am holding out for a 6.5X55 Swede

Thanks everyone.

Boyd's makes great Milsurp replacement stocks for qutie a few C&R guns...

But if you want an inexpensive hunting rifle, there is No Better Deal than the Marlin XL7/XS7 rifles...
$290 at Walmart for a .30-06/.308/other calibers.

The X's tend to shoot better than most rifles under $2500, and better than many between $2500-10K.
The included features are phenominal for the money....check 'em out

[Cork]

From a cost standpoint, (this is in general) if possible I would consider buying a rifle that already been slightly modified, like the stock cut down for a discount over a original rifle. I have only done one sporter and I used parts. Want to make a full stock based on a Arisaka. Will buy one of the many already hacked on in the 50's and 60's as the base. Will not use my CnR although most people will sell it that way.
From a CnR bound book view it depends on the newbie AFT employee who comes to see your book. The required info does not have you record the condition against original. Like any LE interface what you say determines most of the outcome. The few collectors I have known that were audited got different results, no fines or real issues, bascially recommendations on the book structure. The firearm is the receiver to the ATF.
The new Savage rifles have great barrels, great adjustable triggers, improved bedding of the ugly plastic stock, detachable mags, for hunting better than good to go...If only I liked the bolt more.
Cork...Collector of Swiss everything and Mossberg 22's.

[group17]

So you can't you just do this for a sporter?

Yugo k98 $150, rail and scope $100.
The scope comes off in 5 minutes, just reinstall the ladder sight and it's a C&R again. The trigger shouldn't hurt the value.

[Jim K]

As a general rule, "the receiver is the firearm" is true. But for C&R, BATFE has also adopted a rule that the value of a collectors' item depends in good part on its originality (and most of us would agree). In line with that position, they say basically that when a C&R item is altered so that it is no longer a collectible, it is no longer C&R.

I have never heard of any convictions or even loss of license, but I do know some "Collectors" (holders of C&R licenses) have set up in business to buy cheap milsurps, sporterize them and sell them. If or when BATFE learns of this kind of enterprise, I suspect those folks will be in trouble. BATFE also takes the position that if a gunsmith (or anyone else) buys a milsurp, sells it to someone, and then takes it back for sporterizing, he is simply performing a service. But if he buys the gun, sporterizes it and then sells it, he is a manufacturer and must have the appropriate license.

Jim

[Big Shrek]

Some examples of C&R firearms are most manually-operated and semi-automatic firearms used by a military force prior to 1946. This includes most firearms used by the warring nations in World Wars I and II. However, the firearm must normally also be in its original configuration in order to retain the C&R designation, so for example, an unaltered Mauser Kar98k rifle used by the German Army in World War II would be considered as a C&R firearm, while the same rifle having been "sporterized" with a new stock and finish would generally not be considered a C&R firearm. This is an ambiguous point in how the license is currently administered. Some firearms that were altered by the militaries that issued them have been confirmed by the BATFE to retain C&R status, though whether this applies to all such conversions (the examples given by the BATFE were the Spanish M1916 Guardia Civil, FR-7, and FR-8 Mausers) also remains ambiguous. As long as the receiver (the part of the firearm that is regulated by the BATFE) is over 50 years old the firearm qualifies as a Curio & Relic—the BATFE states explicitly that, in addition to newer firearms it individually approves, firearms automatically achieve C&R status upon turning 50.

However...replacing a "broken/damaged" stock with an appropriate Period stock would simply be seen as a repair.

And there of course are weird exceptions...

Any firearm sold as a C&R weapon once changed out of its original configuration cannot be resold as a C&R weapon. In regard to conversions; certain pistols have been approved for sale with added safety conversions (i.e. Polish and Romanian Tokarev pistols, to which a manual safety was added to meet import requirements). Certain other modifications, such as period sporterisations, are arguably C&R qualified as they represent the gun culture of the period. An example would be a Lee-Enfield or 98K Mauser military rifle that had been converted into a continental style sporter between WW1 and WW2. These common conversions occurred more than 50 years ago, and represent a sub-type of special interest to collectors.

There is also the question of whether replacement of a damaged stock with a Brand New Military replacement (example: Garand stocks)
http://www.northcapepubs.com/m1gar.htm


Perversely, I have ZERO problems refinishing a C&R stock if it's a beater. I do, however, use Period-Appropriate woodworking techinques and materials to restore them to proper operating function. All my collectables are FIRED REGULARLY and will be maintained to that standard.
There are no Safe-Queens in my safes.

Example: This 1913 Marlin 37, thusfar untouched other than cleaning, could use a stock refinishing due to many scratches upon it & nearly 100 years of deterioration. Since I use it regularly for a variety of chores, putting it in Like-New condition appeals to me. I never intend to sell it, it's going to get passed down once I get too old to shoot rabbits (death occurs).


After another 100 years passes, who's going to know?
Further, since I use original methods & equipment, who could tell?

When it comes to Military Rifles...I say stick with Original Military-style stocks. I wouldn't change to any style that wasn't Original without a very good reason. If I were immediately gonna stick it in a Thumbhole Stock, I'd probably keep it off the books.

Since you are basically going to give it to the kids...here's how to avoid headaches.

1. Go ahead and get it with your license. (saves money)
2. Wait at least 6 months, then log it off as a Gift to Kid X.
3. Pimp it to your heart's content & teach the kids to use it, just keep it in a separate safe than your C&R guns...
preferrably tagged as Kid X's Rifle.
4. Or, log it off as needing massive repairs, which you will notate appropriately.
Then you can do whatcha want with it.

That way you are covered 9 ways from Sunday

There is no minimum time limit to give a C&R as a gift, but an intelligent person wants to make their records seem normal and believable. Think like a Defense Lawyer.

[Contenderizer]

As to the post above:

Great job Big Shrek!