Confused about selling my C&R guns

[The Count]

recently got my C&R license and already bought half a dozen pistols. at this pace i will eventually have to sell some in order to keep buying (and you can tell i am infected with the gun virus). i went through the stack of docs the ATF sent me but confusion remains.

1) can i sell my guns on gunsamerica, auctions sites, etc to anybody as long as i ship to a 01 FFL?

2) is there a difference somehow between selling my non-c&r guns and the C&R ones?

3) can i sell and ship to C&R license holders directly? only in-state?

anything important that i missed?

[jwmtx]

Question # 1--Yes--You can ship C&R guns to 03
# 2--yes--non C&R guns must ship to 01
# 3--yes--you can ship directly in or out of state
As long as you ship to the proper classifacation FFL you should be covered. James

[deadin]

Be aware of one thing you cannot do as a C&R License holder is utilize the US Postal Service for shipping or receiving handguns. Rifles and antiques are OK, but no pistols.

[jwmtx]

That may be true, but a lot of people do it. I'm a buyer and most of my handguns have come to me by USPS.
How do they know what's in a package?????
James

[deadin]

I thought we were discussing what is legal, not what you may "get away with".

[The Count]

Originally Posted by deadin

I thought we were discussing what is legal, not what you may "get away with".

i agree. the feds have absolutely NO HUMOR with anything concerning guns. i play it 100% by the books.

PS if the seller has a 01 FFL then the postal service is OK anyway when shipping to a 03, right?

[deadin]

PS if the seller has a 01 FFL then the postal service is OK anyway when shipping to a 03, right?

Only if the gun is a long gun or antique. Handguns via USPS must be sent AND received by a FFL01. (There are a few exceptions, but a C&R, FFL03 isn't one of them.)

[gdmoody]

I will add that a C&R FFL is not a license to start a business in used guns!!!

[Jim K]

Hi, deadin,

Sure of that? Only an 01 FFL can send a handgun by USPS, per postal regulations. But IIRC, he/she can ship by USPS to any licensee, which includes an 03 FFL, and to a non-licensee under certain conditions.

As to "how do they know"? They often ask, and lying is a federal crime. Even if they don't ask, mailing certain articles is illegal and if the package comes open, or is x-rayed (routine for any suspicious package), the mailer will be subject to some pretty severe penalties and a federal felony conviction that will keep him/her from ever again owning a gun.

IMHO, it is NOT worth it to save a few dollars or to "put something over" on the USPS.

Jim

[deadin]

Jim,
See below, especially 12.1.2 & 12.1.3. C&R Licensees are NOT included.
This is from the Domestic Mailing Manual 601 (The USPS "Bible")

12.0 Other Restricted and Nonmailable Matter
12.1 Pistols, Revolvers, and Other Concealable Firearms
12.1.1 Definitions
The terms used in this standard are defined as follows:

a. Handgun means any pistol, revolver, or other firearm or device the mailing of which is regulated by this standard.

b. Pistol or revolver means a handgun styled to be fired by the use of a single hand and to fire or otherwise expel a projectile by the action of an explosion, spring, or other mechanical action, or air or gas pressure with enough force to be used as a weapon.

c. Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, designed to, or that may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosion, spring, or other mechanical action, or air or gas pressure with enough force to be used as a weapon.

d. Other firearms capable of being concealed on the person include, but are not limited to, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles.

e. Short-barreled shotgun means a shotgun that has one or more barrels less than 18 inches long. The term short-barreled rifle means a rifle that has one or more barrels less than 16 inches long. These definitions include any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches. A short-barreled shotgun or rifle of greater dimension may be regarded as nonmailable when it has characteristics to allow concealment on the person.

f. Licensed manufacturer and licensed dealer mean, respectively, a manufacturer of firearms or a bona fide dealer of firearms, duly licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury, under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), 18 USC 921, et seq.

g. Antique firearm means any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:

1. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.

2. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

12.1.2 Handguns
Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as handguns) are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 12.1.3 and 12.1.5 after the filing of an affidavit or statement required by 12.1.4 and 12.1.6.

12.1.3 Authorized Persons
Subject to 12.1.4, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government or the government of a state, territory, or district, only when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person's official duties:

a. Officers of the Army, Coast Guard, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps.

b. Officers of the National Guard or militia of a state, territory, or district.

c. Officers of the United States or of a state, territory, or district, whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.

d. USPS employees authorized by the Chief Postal Inspector.

e. Officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States.

f. Watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a state, territory, or district.

g. Purchasing agent or other designated member of agencies employing officers and employees included in 12.1.3c. through 12.1.3e.

12.1.4 Affidavit of Addressee
Any person proposing to mail a handgun under 12.1.3 must file with the postmaster, at the time of mailing, an affidavit signed by the addressee setting forth that the addressee is qualified to receive the firearm under a particular category of 12.1.3a. through 12.1.3g, and that the firearm is intended for the addressee's official use. The affidavit must also bear a certificate stating that the firearm is for the official duty use of the addressee, signed by one of the following, as appropriate:

a. For officers of Armed Forces, by the commanding officer.

b. For officers and employees of enforcement agencies, by the head of the agency employing the addressee to perform the official duty with which the firearm is to be used.

c. For watchmen, by the chief clerk of the department, bureau, or independent branch of the government of the United States, the state, the territory, or the district by which the watchman is employed.

d. For the purchasing agent or other designated member of enforcement agencies, by the head of such agency, that the firearm is to be used by an officer or employee included in 12.1.3c. through 12.1.3e, Authorized Persons.

12.1.5 Manufacturers and Dealers
Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms and licensed dealers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts.

12.1.6 Certificate of Manufacturers and Dealers
A licensed manufacturer or dealer need not file the affidavit under 12.1.4, but must file with the postmaster a statement on Form 1508 signed by the mailer that he or she is a licensed manufacturer or dealer of firearms, that the parcels containing handguns (or major component parts thereof) are customary trade shipments or contain such articles for repairing or replacing parts, and that to the best of his or her knowledge or belief the addressees are licensed manufacturers or dealers of firearms.

[jwmtx]

All that you have said is true, but as I said, I am a buyer and I'm not getting away with anything. And not trying to.
James

[deadin]

I think I would ask the Postal Inspectors what their take on that is.
It could be considered Aiding and Abetting in the commission of a crime or receiving contraband or such. (An item illegally sent through the mail is considered contraband and subject to confiscation)

[Jim K]

Thanks, deadin. My error.

The real problem is that when the 03 FFL came out in 1968, the postal service never updated their regulations, probably because they have made it clear over the years that they don't like handling firearms shipments and didn't want to add to them. They won't admit it, but their employees are as light fingered as those of any other carrier when handguns are involved.

Jim

[The Count]

Originally Posted by Jim K

Thanks, deadin. My error.

The real problem is that when the 03 FFL came out in 1968, the postal service never updated their regulations, probably because they have made it clear over the years that they don't like handling firearms shipments and didn't want to add to them. They won't admit it, but their employees are as light fingered as those of any other carrier when handguns are involved.

Jim

...not to discredit all postal employees but it seems that they have a greater preponderance for going over the deep end. never heard of a fedex or ups guy going ballistic and killing folks at the office....!

[Big Shrek]

I've noticed why UPS workers don't have mental issues


If you worked with Her, your issues would only involve Viagra

Fed Ex employees, on the other hand...worry me...

[Big Shrek]

Originally Posted by The Count

recently got my C&R license and already bought half a dozen pistols. at this pace i will eventually have to sell some in order to keep buying (and you can tell i am infected with the gun virus). i went through the stack of docs the ATF sent me but confusion remains.

1) can i sell my guns on gunsamerica, auctions sites, etc to anybody as long as i ship to a 01 FFL?

2) is there a difference somehow between selling my non-c&r guns and the C&R ones?

3) can i sell and ship to C&R license holders directly? only in-state?

anything important that i missed?

Yeah, Disposition Records...make sure everything is in your Bound Book.

And this...

Licensed collectors (who have been issued a C&R FFL) may acquire C&R firearms in interstate commerce, e.g., via mail or phone order or the Internet, or in person. (This is especially important for collectors of pistols and revolvers since they may not otherwise be acquired outside a collector's state of residence.) However, the selling FFL dealer or collector must have a copy of the buyer's C&R FFL before the C&R firearm can be shipped to the licensed collector. Licensed collectors are not considered to be FFL dealers and have no special privileges concerning non-C&R firearms, nor may they "engage in the business" of regularly selling C&R firearms to persons who do not have an FFL. The purpose of the C&R license is to enable a collector to acquire C&R firearms for his/her personal collection and not to become a firearms dealer.

[gdmoody]

Originally Posted by The Count

...not to discredit all postal employees but it seems that they have a greater preponderance for going over the deep end. never heard of a fedex or ups guy going ballistic and killing folks at the office....!

I am a postal employee and I can verify that you have to be somewhat crazy, to start with, to even want to work for the PO.

I think that we were just the first to have someone go off and kill people at the office so it was called "Going Postal". It has actually happened quite a bit more with other businesses, it is just more publicized with the postal service. I seem to remember someone in some sort of financial investment service going off a few years ago in Atlanta and killing a bunch of his co-workers.

[jwmtx]

So, I've got a C&R and I buy a pistol and he ships it to me by USPS, and I'm the guilty one. Your logic escapes me. What would you do, run to the BATF and confess?
James

[The Count]

Originally Posted by gdmoody

I am a postal employee and I can verify that you have to be somewhat crazy, to start with, to even want to work for the PO.
.

i think i would go nuts too if i had to say "is there anything liquid, perishable or potentially hazardous in this package" a thousand times a day ;-)))

[deadin]

So, I've got a C&R and I buy a pistol and he ships it to me by USPS, and I'm the guilty one.

He is definitely putting his license in jeopardy (among other charges). As for accepting the package, I said that I would check with the Postal Inspectors before I put miy FFL03 in danger (and who knows what else they might pile on).

[macrylinda]

Spam not allowed.