1911 extracting nasty brass

[312shooter]

A recent trip to the range to develop some pet loads for a SA 1911 milspec turned up this nasty little habit. Only the last round in the mag gets chewed up on extraction, this occurred with factory Springfield and MCcormick magazines, 9 different load variations that were tested, which included three different powders and charges as well as three different brass manufacturers under 230gr Hornady XTP's. I nearly eliminated ammo/load issues as the cause but admittedly I am a newb in the 1911 world; I am thinking extractor or recoild spring. Is this a common 1911 trait? Any input is appreciated>

[johnlives4christ]

good lord that is horrible looking brass. i've never seen anything like it. it looks as though you have tried to cycle the empty brass through the gun . i cannot think of any thing that happens in extraction that would cause such damage.

[pkcgbifaid]

The only time I see cartridge cases that chewed up is when they fail to eject and the slide moving forward smashes them in the action. Is this happening?

I would check your ejector. If the ejector is damaged or missing, the loaded cartridges in the magazine can give enough of an upward "push" to help eject all the previous fired cartridge cases, but on the last shot there is nothing there to provide that extra push so the last shot fails to eject.

[Jay]

Put a spent case in the chamber, with an empty mag in place. Slowly draw the slide back, and see if the mag follower is knocking the case out of the extractor before the case can eject....

[SmokyBaer]

If ejector is not broke, you may have a light load not stroking slide all the way back and crunching the brass real ugly on the forward cycle. Need lighter recoil spring if that's the case.

Could also get an extended ejector put in.

[Helix_FR]

Seen this problem before. It seems like a extractor tension problem but its not. What is happening is that on extraction, the brass drops along with the barrel movement (its supposed to), the rim of the brass catches the top of the mag lips and the extractor looses control of the brass and drop it. The slide closes on the empty brass and does what you see there. I chased this same problem with a colt gold cup. Had several different mags but the all did this with the last round. Prognosis, recoil spring is to light. The gold cup I had, had a 14lb spring in it. Way to light so the slide was way to fast to open. Switched to a 18lb spring and problem when away. I don't know what weight spring you have but it may be wore out or lighter than you need. Extended ejector will also fix the issue but this can also cause the extractor to break if the recoil spring is not addressed first.

[JLA]

Most standard pressure loads will cycle a 20# spring. i would recommend you purchase a 20 pounder form wolff and trim it if necessary. I have a 20 pounder in my mutt taurus and it cycles perfect all but the weakest of handloads... Tradeoff is, if your trigger is light and crisp (mine is) dropping the slide on an empty gun will cause the hammer to follow the slide when you upgrade to a heavy recoil spring. It shouldnt do it when loading from the magazine, but will do it nearly everytime when dropping on an empty chamber.

[glocknut]

I've never seen a Glock do that to brass....

mike
gn

[Helix_FR]

Originally Posted by glocknut

I've never seen a Glock do that to brass....

mike
gn

True that, they just explode and blow out through the mag well. Kidding, don't go starting treads about exploding glocks. We all know that they are made to do that

[JLA]

coolest thing about glocks is you dont have to take them outta your pants when you do your laundry, the gun and the jeans come out clean and ready to wear again

[mesinge2]

I asked your question to someone very knowledgeable in all things 1911:

Originally posted by 1911Tuner:

Extractor problem. Try adding more tension by bending it a little. If that doesn't do it, it may be clocking and dropping the last round low enough to depress the mag follower, causing a failure to lock the slide. Slide tries to feed the empty case, which is now at an odd angle in the magazine...and it gets crunched between the breechface and the barrel hood. Not a common problem but not at all rare, either. Usually simple to correct. May require more tension, or it may require a new extractor. Maybe an oversized firing pin stop cut to provide a light press fit to keep the extractor square. Only rarely caused by a mislocated extractor channel...angled or too far to the right... in the slide.

[...]

Sometimes adding tension cures it, but most often it's due to the extractor rotating counter clockwise as viewed from the rear of the gun...and dropping the case. Then, when the next round feeds, the extractor straightens up, making it tough to catch.

The claw still pulls on it, but it's low enough to actually get stuffed partway back into the magazine...depressing the follower and preventing slide lock.

Less frequently, but also present...is the barrel dropping too low and pulling the case down before it's completely clear of the chamber.

Another possible cause, and one that turns up from time to time...during "tuning" of the extractor, the installer cuts the camming bevel at the bottom of the tensioning wall too far up into the wall, and fails to maintain tension when the barrel drops normally.

The reason that it only does it on the last round is because before the magazine is empty, the convex surface of the round under it keeps it from dropping too low, and...unless an extended ejector is in the gun...when the slide uncovers the mag well, the upcoming round bumps the case toward the port.
That's a factor that some people don't consider when installing an extended ejector. It can have a detrimental effect on ejection.

[lawdawg]

I took my Springfield 1911 to the range today because I haven't shot it in a while and I had some factory ammo (Hornady & Speer) that I wanted to shoot. Mine did the exact same thing! The last shell extracted looked exactly like yours and one got caught with the rim stuck in the lips of the mag and had to be forced out. I recall having this problem before, but I was shooting some very old military ammo (circa 1960) and attributed it to weak ammo. Today I was shooting fairly new factory ammo.

[Shooter45]

Originally Posted by 312shooter

A recent trip to the range to develop some pet loads for a SA 1911 milspec turned up this nasty little habit. Only the last round in the mag gets chewed up on extraction, this occurred with factory Springfield and MCcormick magazines, 9 different load variations that were tested, which included three different powders and charges as well as three different brass manufacturers under 230gr Hornady XTP's. I nearly eliminated ammo/load issues as the cause but admittedly I am a newb in the 1911 world; I am thinking extractor or recoild spring. Is this a common 1911 trait? Any input is appreciated>

How hot were the loads?? What lb recoil spring were you using ? When was the last time it was changed ?

It almost looks like a timing issue but without more info, it's all a guess.

[312shooter]

Helix nailed it, went to a 18lb recoil spring and all is good, I purchased this 1911 from a fellow worker, I know it was not shot more than 500 rds, it was in fact a safe queen. A call to Springfield Armory and I found the production year was 1994. My gut tells me that recoil springs not only wear out but wear in. Sitting in the action closed position for so many years this recoil spring must have lost its memory. Either way a great learning experience.............Thanks everyone for your input.

[johnlives4christ]

a full size 1911 should have a 16 pound spring from the factory, although an 18 pound will work well, i still prefer to use 16 pounds in any full size i get.

[JLA]

The 16 lb spring is solely designed around the use of military harball ammo, a 230 gr bullet at no more than 850 fps from a 5 inch barrel. Nowadays every ammo mfgr makes his own version of hardball and each performs differently in a given weapon. I have clocked some 230 grain FMJ at 900 fps with my chrony, and some I have clocked at less than 800. Given the pressure level of standard .45ACP, thats a pretty big curve and not one a single spring will know how to cover properly from one end to the other. I load 228 gr cast lead RN bullets over 5.4 gr W231 which gives me a MV of 830 fps, which with a 20# spring the slide just kisses the frame upon recoil, Perfect IMO

[LDBennett]

If you select a spring that is too powerful the gun will not clear the last round and lock the slide back.

It is not good to use a weaker spring as that will cause the recoil to unnecessarily beat up the gun. It, of course, is ammo power dependent and all ammo you intend to use should be tested to make sure that slide locks back if you select a stronger than original recoil spring. The weakest ammo you regularly use should be the guide as to which recoil spring to use as determined by testing. But be careful as that weak spring might cause some heavier recoiling ammo to beat the gun up. The factory usually selects the best compromise recoil spring through product testing. But springs wear out and loose their power over time and usage, so regular replacement is not a bad idea if you cannot measure where they are in their life cycle.

LDBennett

[Gordon Shumway]

Over the last 30 years of trying almost every FAD,

I prefer a standard weight recoil spring and a recoil buffer pad. Chip McCormick Shooting Star mags are a must. Wilson's are a problem.

I practice with 230 ball, and carry 185+P (and rarely shoot the +P so battering is not a problem).

Point of aim is moot.

[johnlives4christ]

Originally Posted by Gordon Shumway

Point of aim is moot.

in a self defense situation you're right. you will not have the convenience of being able to take the time to steady a well placed shot. you'll be doing well to get center of mass hits while under stress and possibly, dare i say... under fire.

[Dutch1911]

Originally Posted by glocknut

I've never seen a Glock do that to brass....

mike
gn

You may want to reconsider that little G Lock comment...

Here's a Glock 22 malfunction that occurred today on an LE Firearms range I teach at.




You wouldn't believe the malfunctions I've seen from G Lock pistols out there. Sooo... yeah... I'll leave it at that.

Dutch1911
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