Need help to identify old german 12 gauge shotgun - The Firearms Forum

saulormcosta · 10-24-2010, 02:55 PM

I’m from Brazil and i need help to identify an old 12 gauge shotgun that belong to my great-grandfather.

I need at least know the gunmaker to register the gun.

I'll try to post some pictures. If somebody needs more pictures, please contact on e-mail: saulo_dm@yahoo.com.br

Any help will be very appreciated. Thanks and sorry about the english!!

Saulo Costa

Jim K · 10-24-2010, 10:14 PM

As far as I can tell, the name Illix Aind, Berlin, is on the gun and that should be good enough for identification and registration. The first name is unusual but not unknown in Germany and France.

I can't make out the other markings, maybe a better picture would help or maybe you can tell what some of it is and we can help.

FWIW, the crowned letters are S for proof of a smoothbore barrel, W for proof of a choked barrel, and U for the final definitive proof, per the German proof law of 1891.

The style of the gun indicates manufacture in the late 1890's or early 1900's.

HTH

Jim

saulormcosta · 10-25-2010, 11:37 PM

Jim,

Searching in the internet, I find nothing referring to "Illix Aind".

In shotgunworld.com's forum, they say it could be "Felix Arnd Berlin," but again I do not find references.

The other inscription is "FURSTENWALDE Am / Spree."
Furstenwalde is still a town in eastern Germany located on the Spree river

About proofmarks, I found the meaning on (http://www.gunaccessory.com/Proof_Ma...oofmarks.htm#5)

Thanks a lot for the help....

Saulo

Jim K · 10-26-2010, 07:06 PM

In Germany at that time, many guns were made by a consortium or guild of makers and since it was a cooperative, there was no single maker who could put his name on the gun. The name on those guns was usually not the maker, but the retailer, who bought the gun plain and had his name stamped or engraved on it.

If the law specifically states that the "maker" must be named, then you can't name a maker. But if the purpose is to identify the gun, the name on the gun should be adequate to do that, even if he is not technically the maker. My feeling would be just to list Illix Aind as the maker and not go into such details with the authorities.

Jim

10-24-2010, 02:55 PM	#1
saulormcosta Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 2	Need help to identify old german 12 gauge shotgun I’m from Brazil and i need help to identify an old 12 gauge shotgun that belong to my great-grandfather. I need at least know the gunmaker to register the gun. I'll try to post some pictures. If somebody needs more pictures, please contact on e-mail: saulo_dm@yahoo.com.br Any help will be very appreciated. Thanks and sorry about the english!! Saulo Costa Attached Images -->

10-24-2010, 10:14 PM	#2
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Need help to identify old german 12 gauge shotgun As far as I can tell, the name Illix Aind, Berlin, is on the gun and that should be good enough for identification and registration. The first name is unusual but not unknown in Germany and France. I can't make out the other markings, maybe a better picture would help or maybe you can tell what some of it is and we can help. FWIW, the crowned letters are S for proof of a smoothbore barrel, W for proof of a choked barrel, and U for the final definitive proof, per the German proof law of 1891. The style of the gun indicates manufacture in the late 1890's or early 1900's. HTH Jim

10-25-2010, 11:37 PM	#3
saulormcosta Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 2	Re: Need help to identify old german 12 gauge shotgun Jim, Searching in the internet, I find nothing referring to "Illix Aind". In shotgunworld.com's forum, they say it could be "Felix Arnd Berlin," but again I do not find references. The other inscription is "FURSTENWALDE Am / Spree." Furstenwalde is still a town in eastern Germany located on the Spree river About proofmarks, I found the meaning on (http://www.gunaccessory.com/Proof_Ma...oofmarks.htm#5) Thanks a lot for the help.... Saulo

10-26-2010, 07:06 PM	#4
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Need help to identify old german 12 gauge shotgun In Germany at that time, many guns were made by a consortium or guild of makers and since it was a cooperative, there was no single maker who could put his name on the gun. The name on those guns was usually not the maker, but the retailer, who bought the gun plain and had his name stamped or engraved on it. If the law specifically states that the "maker" must be named, then you can't name a maker. But if the purpose is to identify the gun, the name on the gun should be adequate to do that, even if he is not technically the maker. My feeling would be just to list Illix Aind as the maker and not go into such details with the authorities. Jim