A really big 1911 question

[40CalJoe]

[QUOTE=Jay;536339]

Originally Posted by 40CalJoe

I doubt any 1911 could sustain the torture test this Glock 21 was put through and still work. Right now, my 1911 is at Springfield after 250 rounds. All three of my Glocks have about 5000 rounds each on them and have never had anything done to them except cleaning.

Torture tests are usually just a few guns, and the ones that fail, are rarely written about.... regardless if they're Glocks or 1911's. I have 7 1911's and NONE of them have ever been back to their respective makers. a couple of them have probably more than 10,000 trouble-free rounds through them (cleaned periodically, and replaced a few springs), and the others between 2000 and 4000 rounds. Anyone can get a "bad" gun, and it's not restricted to any one brand. Maybe I've been very lucky.... but I've been very happy with my 1911's..... and I do NOT dislike Glocks, they just feel really uncomfortable in my hands.

Jay I completely understand what what you are saying. I was not knocking 1911's at all. I learned to shoot with an old Colt more than 30 years ago, have a Colt commander and a couple of Springers now. The point I was trying to make, which I poorly did, is Glock and all the other polymer guns have their place and are a different philosophy to auto loaders. Most all guns are better than the person pulling the trigger.

And by the way, happy 234th birthday, a day late.

[Claude Clay]

for the masses you issue a glock ( sad piece of point and shoot plastic).

a 1911 is liken to a Indy car; the glock is the family sedan.

one does not train to be merely competent with a 1911. train till you are
an expert with it or carry something else. granted there are models (Sig 229/239 comes to mind)
that measure up very close to a 1911.
close; not as good in all areas but, close overall.

so; train enough to carry something that is passable, or
train like your life depends on it and carry the best: a 1911.

-----> who?? me biased

[superbc1911]

Very well put. I think I found a new home here at the Forum. Best Wishes

[hogger129]

Originally Posted by 44alltheway

Now before I start let me say I like 1911s! I really like big bullets and I think the 44 mag is the best but a 45 auto is damn good.
Everything in all the guns magazines says how great the 1911 is. Everybody knows how great the 45 auto round is.
So my question is this Why doesnt any police or army have it as a sidearm? We know its a good gun so how come nobody uses it on the job?

A lot of it is because it's a heavier firearm and it does not have a very high ammunition capacity. There are the Para Ordinance models that are high capacity, but I couldn't tell you what those run as far as price.

As for Glock, most police departments use that because it's inexpensive, has a high ammunition capacity, can be drawn and fired quickly (no safeties to fumble with), it's also lightweight making it an easier weapon to carry. I see many that also carry the SIG Sauer P226 in 9x19 or .40 S&W.

And I wouldn't say all police departments have moved away from the 1911. You just don't see patrolmen carrying it. I believe most of the reason for that is because the 1911 is heavier than let's say a Glock, and carries less ammo. But many SWAT teams have used the 1911. LAPD SWAT has started issuing the Kimber TLE II. FBI SWAT uses the Springfield TRP.

There are some parts of the US military that use the 1911. I believe SOCOM went back to the 1911. They have some fancy modified one called the MEU SOC pistol. I believe it's a Springfield Operator with a rail and threaded barrel. And I thought there were a few MEU SOC pistols built on the Kimber Desert Warrior also.

I believe the US switched to the Beretta 92 (designation M9) for reasons of standardization with NATO. I thought more recently they were considering scrapping it and finding a new pistol to use.

Many police departments' standard issue sidearm is still the Beretta 92FS. LAPD for example, that is their standard issue to patrolmen.

As far as Glock vs. the 1911 though, I wouldn't say one is better than the other. Both have their strong suits and faults. Glock is less expensive, more economical so that's what they hand out to the patrolmen. The 1911 is more accurate, but costs a bit more than a Glock. Police departments are on a budget so obviously they can't hand out a well-built 1911 to every officer. Same goes for the military. Although I'm sure the military still has a few WWII Colts sitting around somewhere.

It all depends on the intended use of the firearm. For patrolmen, the high capacity, lightweight, and inexpensive Glock works better whereas a SWAT team may want something more accurate with a more powerful round so the 1911 serves their needs better.

[TheGunClinger]

If you ever watch Cops you will see that many police and sheriff depts. use the 1911. I watch for them just because I like them so much.

[Bob L.]

I guess it all comes down to what one is comfortable with. Standardization with NATO and being able to have more rounds available both in the 92 Baretta and on the person was I'm sure also an important consideration. But, looking at the vernerable 1911 which has served to protect for almost a hundred years, it's no wonder there are those that would want to carry no other pistol. Just the sound of racking that 45 Auto in the dead of the night would scare the hell out of any would be home invader and give calm confidence to anyone depending on it. My vote is and probably always will be the 1911A Colt 45 Auto.

[johnlives4christ]

makes me want another 1911

[Jim K]

I get a bit perturbed when I read more garbage about how the "1911" is unreliable, needs work, has to be tuned, etc., etc., etc., all based on experience with a bunch of clones made as cheaply as possible, with cut-rate labor, out of third rate material, by companies that think "spec" is a dirty word. Not to mention silly and useless ammunition with bullets that have no purpose except to look good in the gunzines and be bought by people who seriously think there is a magic bullet that will make up for their inability to hit what they shoot at.

We put a couple of million Model 1911 and Model 1911A1 pistols in the hands of our military and they were the most rugged and reliable service pistol in the world. Does any Luger, P.38, or Nambu fan want to dispute that? And they worked, out of the box, and kept working, under the worst possible conditions.

Now some newbie who has fired ten shots from an "el cheapo" clone decides that the "1911" is unreliable and worthless?

Jim

[Alpo]

Tell it, Brother. Can I get an "Amen" over here?

[Helix_FR]

Originally Posted by Jim K

I get a bit perturbed when I read more garbage about how the "1911" is unreliable, needs work, has to be tuned, etc., etc., etc., all based on experience with a bunch of clones made as cheaply as possible, with cut-rate labor, out of third rate material, by companies that think "spec" is a dirty word. Not to mention silly and useless ammunition with bullets that have no purpose except to look good in the gunzines and be bought by people who seriously think there is a magic bullet that will make up for their inability to hit what they shoot at.

We put a couple of million Model 1911 and Model 1911A1 pistols in the hands of our military and they were the most rugged and reliable service pistol in the world. Does any Luger, P.38, or Nambu fan want to dispute that? And they worked, out of the box, and kept working, under the worst possible conditions.

Now some newbie who has fired ten shots from an "el cheapo" clone decides that the "1911" is unreliable and worthless?

Jim

Very well put. Its like buying the BMW with 200K miles on it, having it break down and then badmouthing BMW that they make junk. Makes no sense to me either.

[papawed]

Originally Posted by GMFWoodchuck

I suspect a good chunk of the reasoning for why the 45 has lost it's favor is because it's such a large round. An engineer can fit more 9mm bullets into a handle than he can 45acp bullets. And more likely than not a 9 will drop a person just as readliy as the 45. Though, I'd take the 45 if I thought the person was on drugs.....

That last sentence about the person on drugs brings up one of the main reasons the 1911 was developed in the first place. Somebody help me out . There was a group of islands and the natives were in fact high on something, and would not be stopped quickly with 9mm's.

Someone finish this story. I,too, would pick the 45!

[Alpo]

Philippine Islands. Muslim natives called Moros. They'd get high on drugs and "go amok" and while waving their big curvy-bladed Krises, go charge out to please Allah by killing the white man.

US Army found out that their new gun, the Colt Double Action Revolver, firing the 38 Long Colt, would not stop 'em. Obsolete Single Action Army 45s were brought out of mothballs and reissued.

Smith and Wesson made a new gun, and took the 38 Long Colt, increased both the bullet weight and the powder charge, called it the 38 Smith and Wesson Special, and advocated their new gun, the Military and Police Revolver, firing their new round, as the solution to the problem.

Unfortunately for S&W's bottom line, the Army had decided that their new gun would be:
A - 45 caliber
and
B - an autoloader.

[Boris]

Originally Posted by Jim K

I get a bit perturbed when I read more garbage about how the "1911" is unreliable, needs work, has to be tuned, etc., etc., etc., all based on experience with a bunch of clones made as cheaply as possible, with cut-rate labor, out of third rate material, by companies that think "spec" is a dirty word. Not to mention silly and useless ammunition with bullets that have no purpose except to look good in the gunzines and be bought by people who seriously think there is a magic bullet that will make up for their inability to hit what they shoot at.

We put a couple of million Model 1911 and Model 1911A1 pistols in the hands of our military and they were the most rugged and reliable service pistol in the world. Does any Luger, P.38, or Nambu fan want to dispute that? And they worked, out of the box, and kept working, under the worst possible conditions.

Now some newbie who has fired ten shots from an "el cheapo" clone decides that the "1911" is unreliable and worthless?

Jim

In all fairness. I had a SA1911 back in the 90s. It was my second 1911. My first was a 1991A1 that I would put up against any modernday wonder boomer. That SA1911 went back to the factory three times because it would not work with any kind of ammo with any magazine. When I got it back the last time it was told to me that this is how this 1911 is going to work. It was not a cheapie. I sold it to a guy that wanted a SA frame to build a gun..... I like 1911s. I want one in 38 Super or maybe 10mm so I can get a 9x25mm barrel for it. Will probably get the 10 someday..

Now I gotta go read the OP

[Jim K]

How times change! We brought out the .45 auto to do a better job of killing backward natives. Now the no-longer "backward" natives are making .45 autos and selling them to us.

Helix, that BMW with 200k on it might be OK. I think a better comparison would be to buy a Yugo with "BMW" painted on the hood, then blame BMW when the junker quits.

Jim

[Boris]

Originally Posted by Jim K

How times change! We brought out the .45 auto to do a better job of killing backward natives. Now the no-longer "backward" natives are making .45 autos and selling them to us.

Helix, that BMW with 200k on it might be OK. I think a better comparison would be to buy a Yugo with "BMW" painted on the hood, then blame BMW when the junker quits.

Jim

Yer killin me Jim K!! I enjoy reading your posts.

1911s are carried by plenty of police. May not be huge departments, but I have seen 1911s C1 in plenty of officers holsters around the country. There is a large department just down the road from me that issues 1911s. I love the sight of a 1911 cocked and locked in an officers holster. None of them seem to complain about the weight or capacity either.

Good solid guns as good as any Glock Ok I'm outa haere now...........