??? Technical ....ballistics - The Firearms Forum

jlloyd73 · 12-04-2010, 11:31 PM

I have had this question in my mind and I wanted to bump this thought of ya'll.

Ballistics.......Ballistic Fingerprinting

Is it junk science or not?

Isn't there a chance that a gun manufacturer could produce 2 or more guns with the same ballistic identifiers? What I am getting at is that the machine that puts the threads inside a barrel uses the same bit for hundreds of barrels....right? Even for something like them using the extractor marks......pretty simple part there......thousands probably made by the same machine. What about them using the firing pin to identify where it hits the primer...I am sure the machine that made the firing pin for my AR made thousands more.

Seems to me that it is just another way to harass gun owners. What do you think?

LDBennett · 12-05-2010, 06:56 AM

Police department have been using ballistic finger printing for decades. When observed microscopically every barrel is different inside as is every firing pin and extractor and ejector. Each leaves a different mark on the case or bullet. That goes for knives too if the marking is left on something like bones.

What is stupid is the micro engraving on the end of the firing pin. While it indeed would leave unique traceable numbers on the fired case, there are a few problem. It is easily removed with a touch of the firing pin to a bench grinder. And all a potential murderer has to do is visit a public range, pick up a few empties on the ground with different micro marking numbers on them, and throw them out at the shooting scene The police would spend forever chasing down dead end alleys verifying the identity of every case found at the scene. Police say a murder case gets cold after 48 hours and all of that would be wasted chasing people who left brass at the range and have nothing at all to do with the shooting incident. Revolvers leave no cases behind so there is no micro stamped cases to use.

California is slated to get this micro engraving of the firing pin added to its laws (in fact it is law now but can not be implemented because the law specifies that there has to be more than one source of the micro engraving and the inventor will not give up his patent rights).

Perhaps a law enforcement person could add to or correct my above statements.

LDBennett

jack404 · 12-05-2010, 07:06 AM

the trial here by Queensland state police ended in failure when the stamp could not be ID'd in a officer involved shooting ( he dropped the bad guy ) 7 months into the 12 month trial, prac range shooting every 6 weeks, a average of 40 rounds

the criminals would have a field day with it !!!

Jim K · 12-05-2010, 04:42 PM

MD has had a system in place for several years to forward a fired case to the State Police with each new gun sold. Last year, the legislature considered ending the program, which is costly to the state (not to mention the burden on gun makers and dealers), and had produced no results in crime solving. By a strange coincidence, the bill to end the program was in committee when the police announced that they had been able to use the system to solve a crime! Since the gun was found in possession of the prime suspect's girlfriend, the "ballistic fingerprint" program was not needed and some suspect the investigation was manipulated to show that it worked. (Of course, our honest, noble cops and our honest, noble governor wouldn't lie. Would they?)

Jim

Big Shrek · 12-09-2010, 05:50 PM

Micro-printing is a total waste of time.
Fire around 500 rounds thru a gun, sometimes less, and the FP mark is history.
It simply wears off.

Now as far as ballistic fingerprinting, any idiot who has watched their Crime Shows knows that
cops can match the lands & grooves on a bullet to a barrel. (Assuming the bullet wasn't totally deformed)
So, if you plan on being a hitman, if you have a lathe, you have an INFINITE source of new barrels.
Kill someone, melt the barrel down, grab one of your pre-made ones, and go smoke another target.

If you don't have a brass catcher already, tie a Crown Royal bag over the ejection port

If California & other places want less gun crime, simply use Florida's 10-20-LIFE law, CCW, & Castle Doctrines.
It cut WAY down on our crime rates...if the crooks weren't killed by their victims,
or put away for life in prison...they simply left for easyer hunting grounds...like Cali, NY, NJ, & Ill

old semperfi · 12-09-2010, 06:20 PM

big shrek,i think you put too much thought in this.who is the victim? old semperfi

12-04-2010, 11:31 PM	#1
jlloyd73 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Contributor Posts: 1,932	??? Technical ....ballistics I have had this question in my mind and I wanted to bump this thought of ya'll. Ballistics.......Ballistic Fingerprinting Is it junk science or not? Isn't there a chance that a gun manufacturer could produce 2 or more guns with the same ballistic identifiers? What I am getting at is that the machine that puts the threads inside a barrel uses the same bit for hundreds of barrels....right? Even for something like them using the extractor marks......pretty simple part there......thousands probably made by the same machine. What about them using the firing pin to identify where it hits the primer...I am sure the machine that made the firing pin for my AR made thousands more. Seems to me that it is just another way to harass gun owners. What do you think? -->

12-05-2010, 06:56 AM	#2
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,715	Re: ??? Technical ....ballistics Police department have been using ballistic finger printing for decades. When observed microscopically every barrel is different inside as is every firing pin and extractor and ejector. Each leaves a different mark on the case or bullet. That goes for knives too if the marking is left on something like bones. What is stupid is the micro engraving on the end of the firing pin. While it indeed would leave unique traceable numbers on the fired case, there are a few problem. It is easily removed with a touch of the firing pin to a bench grinder. And all a potential murderer has to do is visit a public range, pick up a few empties on the ground with different micro marking numbers on them, and throw them out at the shooting scene The police would spend forever chasing down dead end alleys verifying the identity of every case found at the scene. Police say a murder case gets cold after 48 hours and all of that would be wasted chasing people who left brass at the range and have nothing at all to do with the shooting incident. Revolvers leave no cases behind so there is no micro stamped cases to use. California is slated to get this micro engraving of the firing pin added to its laws (in fact it is law now but can not be implemented because the law specifies that there has to be more than one source of the micro engraving and the inventor will not give up his patent rights). Perhaps a law enforcement person could add to or correct my above statements. LDBennett Last edited by LDBennett; 12-05-2010 at 07:55 AM..

12-05-2010, 07:06 AM	#3
jack404 Former Guest Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Australia Contributor Posts: 17,622	Re: ??? Technical ....ballistics the trial here by Queensland state police ended in failure when the stamp could not be ID'd in a officer involved shooting ( he dropped the bad guy ) 7 months into the 12 month trial, prac range shooting every 6 weeks, a average of 40 rounds the criminals would have a field day with it !!! Last edited by jack404; 12-05-2010 at 07:08 AM..

12-05-2010, 04:42 PM	#4
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: ??? Technical ....ballistics MD has had a system in place for several years to forward a fired case to the State Police with each new gun sold. Last year, the legislature considered ending the program, which is costly to the state (not to mention the burden on gun makers and dealers), and had produced no results in crime solving. By a strange coincidence, the bill to end the program was in committee when the police announced that they had been able to use the system to solve a crime! Since the gun was found in possession of the prime suspect's girlfriend, the "ballistic fingerprint" program was not needed and some suspect the investigation was manipulated to show that it worked. (Of course, our honest, noble cops and our honest, noble governor wouldn't lie. Would they?) Jim

12-09-2010, 05:50 PM	#5
Big Shrek Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: NorthWest Florida Posts: 923	Re: ??? Technical ....ballistics Micro-printing is a total waste of time. Fire around 500 rounds thru a gun, sometimes less, and the FP mark is history. It simply wears off. Now as far as ballistic fingerprinting, any idiot who has watched their Crime Shows knows that cops can match the lands & grooves on a bullet to a barrel. (Assuming the bullet wasn't totally deformed) So, if you plan on being a hitman, if you have a lathe, you have an INFINITE source of new barrels. Kill someone, melt the barrel down, grab one of your pre-made ones, and go smoke another target. If you don't have a brass catcher already, tie a Crown Royal bag over the ejection port If California & other places want less gun crime, simply use Florida's 10-20-LIFE law, CCW, & Castle Doctrines. It cut WAY down on our crime rates...if the crooks weren't killed by their victims, or put away for life in prison...they simply left for easyer hunting grounds...like Cali, NY, NJ, & Ill __________________ Marlin Specialist Calico Specialist A gun should be a tool in the hands of a deadly weapon, not a deadly weapon in the hands of a tool. Last edited by Big Shrek; 12-09-2010 at 05:52 PM..

12-09-2010, 06:20 PM	#6
old semperfi Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: i live in southern indiana,old country boy at heart Posts: 1,506	Re: ??? Technical ....ballistics big shrek,i think you put too much thought in this.who is the victim? old semperfi