I now have a bersa 380 that I enjoy to shoot alot.
But, went to my first pistol match and was pretty much out gunned. They base on IDPA rules,but don't really classify different classes of guns. Anyway the cof is set up for a 38 or better gun.
I want to purchase a more powerfull gun,both for competition (IDPA, USPSA, etc) and for a possible ccw.
I went this past weekend and shot a glock 36 and really enjoyed that. My questions I guess are
Is a 9mm more powerfull than a 38?
If I go with a .45 should I stick with the full size 1911 or go with the sub compact/compact for ccw use?
Which caliber would I get more bang for my buck? (meaning I want to shoot alot about 500 rounds per week at the most cost effecient, but at the same time have the power to compete in matches and have a reliable carry gun)
I really liked the glock 36 but, in the future if I want to reload, this gun wouldn't work.
Should I purchase a full size 1911 or go possibly for a charles daly ecs? Would a s&w be better? or maybe a Kimber.
Should I go with a 9mm or a .40 because of recoil.
All around, the 9mm is great. I like the .45, but try them all. I would say stay away from charles daly, they aren't nearly as nice as a kimber, Springfield, or Wilson if you got the cash. For carry, a champion, or commander size would be great. I have a kimber target that wouldnt carry well, but is awsome for compitition. the .40 is more expensive to get ammo. ( twice as much as 9mm ) So my suggestion would be a Springfield or Kimber in either 9mm or .45. A full size would have less recoil because of the weight, but also would carry heavier. Personally, I dont like Glock, But they are a good gun for the money, and if it works well for you, get it. Para-Ordnance will be coming out with a 9mm full size lite-weight single stack in july, If you want to hang out, that thing should be nice.
For comp. and target plinking, a 9mm is great. Cheap ammo, less recoil, It just isn't a .45 ( My personal favorite). But again, get what you can hit with. Shoot them all. Hang out at a local range, if someone is shooting something you like, ask if you can shoot a few through it, most folks love to let you play with their toys.
as for the power question, this is a good site
Personally, I like the .45. Personally, I would not get the CD. Personally, I prefer a series 70 design, and a forged frame and slide. What 1911 to get is an issue in itself. Colt, Springfield, Kimber, Wilson, Les Baer, STI/SVI, and Dan Wesson come to my mind, but there are others, and the new SW 1911 isn't bad.
A P+ load in the 9mm is not a bad defensive load.
You could almost get another gun, but if you go with the Glock, you can get a different barrel, and a different magazine, and shoot either the 9mm or the .40 by changing them out. You would probably need a different spring weight also. This would probably run you an extra $200.00 unless you can find a used barrel for sale somewhere. That way you shoot with the 9mm, but use the .40 set up for defense. However, like I said, with the P+ load, the 9mm isn't a bad defensive load, and spending the extra money might not be worth it.
I don't know why you stated you couldn't use reloaded ammo if you get the Glock. All manufactures state they won't honor their warranty unless you use factory ammo. With the Glock you could use reload, but avoid using lead. You would be better off using a jacketed bullet with the twist used in the Glock barrel. That, or you can get a match grade barrel for the Glock (ie. Barstow) that uses standard twist in the barrel, and then use lead. It is dirtier, and a little bit more work to clean well.
If you want to stay with just the 9mm (and get a Glock), and do target shooting and competion, I guess I would recommend getting a Barstow SS match barrel (then you can also use lead if you want too), and it will be more accurate. You can change the trigger pull from a 5 pound to a 3.5 pound rather easily. Lastly, if you do get the Glock, and do use it for personal defense (maybe P+ load), I would recommend that you also buy the SAFE-T-BLOK. This is a device that easily snaps in place behind the trigger, and will not allow the trigger to be pulled by accident. It is great for carry (especially if you don't use a holster). When you go to shoot, you just easily pop it out with your trigger finger, and your ready to fire away. In time, it would be good to replace the Glock mag springs with Wolff brand mag springs. An extended slide release and magazine release is good for competition, but I would not recommend installing them if you plan to use the gun for defense as they can hang up on holsters or clothing.
P.S. - If you like the Glocks, you may want to check out the Springfield XD. It is as much gun, less expensive, safer in design, has been getting good reviews, and oh yes, it is sold by a U.S. company with a good warranty.
The folowing information was taken from the 2002 Guns & Ammo Annual article titled "Top 10 Self Defense Loads" by Cpl. Ed Sanow.....
Load.......................................................................One shot stop%
Federal .40 S&W 155 grain Hydra-Shok.......................................97
Federal .357 Magnum 125 grain JHP............................................96
Federal .45 ACP 230 grain Hdra-Shok..........................................96
Remington .45 ACP 185 grain Golden Saber +P...........................95
ANY 9mm 115 grain JHP with a muzzle velocity over 1260fps....90-93
Triton & Corbon .40 S&W 135 grain JHP.......................................92
Winchester .44 Magnum 210 grain Slivertip................................91
Triton .357 SIG 125 grain Rainier JHP*.........................................91
Winchester .41 Magnum 175 grain Silvertip.................................90
Federal .40 S&W 180 grain Hydra-Shok.......................................90
* based on perfomance in ordnance gelatin
With the exception of the .357 SIG, all of these numbers are based on real police shootings. As you can see, the .40 S&W is just Barely the top load. Factor in it's reduced recoil compared to a .45 and you can really start to appreciate it. It also, however is a pricey round- about $19 for 20 rounds. Target ammo is about $9 for 50.
I agree with Greg's suggestion of getting a Glock and changing barrels depending on the situation. Use 9mm for target/ competition shooting and then use the .40 for self defense. If you purchase a Glock 23 (.40) you simply have to change barrels. Same springs and magazines work for both rounds.
Last edited by Knuckle_Dragger; 04-13-2004 at 03:39 AM..
A triad defense approach with three firearms is necessary in the event one is faced with multiple assailants.
A minimum .32 caliber needs to be employed with a 9mm as a weapon of choice and a .45 a supplement against targets of greater mass. A .32 may also be used to slow down a target that may be intoxicated chemically.
Last edited by Remington597; 04-13-2004 at 08:20 PM..
You mention assailant in the singular. My backup plan takes into account multiple assailants. Opponents of large mass at a distance may require you to empty a full clip. Imagine the attacker a male of 270 lbs on methamphetamine. You may need to empty an entire 9mm clip at 20 yards to slow him down. Multiple clips are a great idea, but in case the firearm jams, you need secondary and firearm(S) plural.
I was a victim of violent crime once. Emphasis on ONCE!!
What you are saying is that we shod "carry" three weapons at all times? The senerio that you are putting forth, would realy only be viable on the home front. Then i belive that I would have heavier fire power than either my 9 or my 38super. I have the fire power in my home to taKE MULTIPLE ASSAILANTS but away from my house, I am not large enough to carry the fire power to contain a long battle with multiple assailents. Don
Kel Tec guns are light and highly effective. I would recommend all their pistols, including the P32, P3AT(.380) and the P11.
The P32 fits snug into an ankle holster. The P11 9mm in to a FOBUS in your jacket and a Taurus P111 9mm for the car. When its too hot out, you can have the P32 in the internal belt line of your pants another P32 in your ankel holster. I always wear jeans and not shorts. This way you have effective detterence against attackers..
In the car, the passenger/drive divider where I keep my CDs have an effective place for my 9mm. This keeps the triad in place.
As far as the house. There is enough to defeat any foe, at any range, on multiple levels.
I agree with what remmy said in an earlier post.... Skip the 40 !!!
I have never trusted 40's in Glocks or in any other brand pistol either....
They have a rep for not cycling relaibly, and I guess alot of the GKB problems are in 40 as well.....
9mm is utterly reliable in Glocks and alot of other brand pistols as well.
The 45 is best for defense....and I do like Glocks G21 45, but next time I'm leaning towards a Sig P220 45....Out of the box relaibility, accuracy, and very easy to shoot bullseyes...out of the box!!! I previously owned 2 P220's....had to sell because I was very ill and needed the money.....
As far as the shorter stubbier 1911's....Personally I'd avoid them. I had a Colt series 80 officers model that just wrecked me on 1911 for years. It was 15 years before i even considered a 1911 again......
I love Glocks, but Nobody should start with their first Glock as a mini anything. The Glock trigger is alien to some folks, and takes a while to learn. It Is worthwhile once learned.....
If you go Glock....get a midsized "19" or a full sized "17" to start with...
Too many first time Glock owners get the mini Glock 45, which is a handfull, and then get burnt out on Glock......
You may need to empty an entire 9mm clip at 20 yards to slow him down
You may need to learn to shoot... Takes 2 at center mass and 1 to the head. Textbook kill. Ya do that, I dont think there's much chance of ANYBODY comin at ya for more than a stager or a fall.
Sean, I'd go with the .45 full size version. I'm not partial to 9mm, but they are cheap to shoot and have decent stopping power. Dont know if they are stronger than a .38. I dont like the compacts either. I was shown a Kimber Custom Carry. It was smaller lengthwise, but it was thicker because of a double stacked magazine. Personally I'd like the slimmer of the two. Get whatever makes ya happy. Either a 9 or .45 oughta be good, so it's basically your preferance. I dont know anything about conversion kits, so I cant help ya there.
Gainfully employed= shooting somebody elses bullets and getting paid for it
I think that's not a bad idea. The 1911 with the conversion kit. It will let you shoot lots and lots of cheap ammo, but still keep you comfortable with the "build and feel" of your 1911. Also helps you work on your form without recoil. Usefulll.
I also like the glock, and the 9mm (especially if you are used to a 45ACP) is also a nice light cartrige.
If you want something very powerful and very accurate, you might want to go for 10mm. The glock has a 10mm variant, I think. It is expensive, though. Not many people seem to like the 10mm like I do :-(
I have had both the Colt Ace .22 and a Colt conversion unit for my Randall. Both with floating chambers. The recoil is almost the same as a .45 you still have the mass of the slide and barrel recoiling together. Just cheaper to shoot.
I appreciate the tip, but after thousands of hours at ranges and competitions, my marksmanship is not at question.
Heading off multiple attackers at 25 yards is a challenge for even the best marksman, therefore it is prudent to have multiple firearms and side clips as well for the most effective defense.
i would have to agree with knuckle dragger...i like the .40. i have two .40's and both have been wonderful shooters with 100% reliability. both guns are beretta's. i have not shot any other .40's, but both of mine work flawlessly. i also agree with country...one nice shot to the head or two to the chest should stop most anybody, regardless of caliber.
Ah yes, C101, the good 'ole Mozambique (Israeli Failure Drill). Not too many people wearing 50 layers of Kevlar over their face. This is a great way to practice (1,2,3...1,2,3). At least double tap 'em as a regular way to practice. However, if you shoot more than 2 or 3 times, the use of force will be brought into question, but you will still be alive.
Rem, if you've got that many coming at ya, maybe go with a slinged, pistol gripped Streetsweeper, with a drum loaded with 000 Buck!
Sean, it's up to you bud. Any of the things mentioned will be fine for you as long as you are comfortable and accurate (and practice!) with what you pick. I have used the .22 conversion on 1911's and they are nice. There are .22 conversion kits for the Glocks that are nice as well. Either will run you about $200.00, plus more for extra mags.
Remember, the Glock .40 was made as standard issue to the FBI, so it must be pretty good. However, recently, the FBI went with the 1911-A1 .45 ACP Springfield FBI model (sweet gun, but should be at 2 grand a pop!) for their special groups. I wonder why that is? My guess is, if they could afford it, and train everyone well enough, it would be issued for all of the FBI.
If the .40 had a "rep" for not cycling reliably, I doubt hundreds (maybe thousands) of police departments would be using them as their standard issure duty weapons, along with the FBI and many other law enforcement agencies. A majority of them are using Glocks, with SIG and Beretta plentiful also. I've got 4 .40s, (Browning, Glock, Kahr, and Walther) and they've all been stone cold reliable, or I wouldn't own them. Never 1, that's no, failures to chamber or extract a round in the years I've been using the .40. My 9mms have had the same reliability, along with 1 of my 2 .45s. (The 1911 gets a little finicky every now and then, just when I think maybe it's had it's last hiccup).
Anyway, now that I've got that off my chest,
9,.40, or .45, they'll all do the job with decent bullet placement, and none of them will do it with poor placement. The 9mm is a pleasure to shoot, and for sure is the most economical way to go if you're paying for your own ammunition. Personally, I couldn't stand not to have at least one of each.