zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 - Page 2 - The Firearms Forum

woolleyworm · 01-08-2011, 08:05 AM

Mitja - thanks for the informative posts; great info ! I've got a friend that has an M57 and this should answer a couple of his questions about the gun.

permafrost · 01-08-2011, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitja

Collector firearms that have been additionaly equipped with certain furniture are not collector items any more. M57 with side safety is not considered as original. For sport shooters this is not important fact.

I have to agree as to their collector status. I imagine some of the originals are in the US without the added safety and that damn GIANT billboard import stamp, but I haven't seen one. They would definitely be more collectable. I personally love the two I have, but had to modify the add on safety on both of them for them to work correctly. What a shame to deface these weapons. They are built better than any other Tokarev out there, including the Russian. OK go ahead and jump on me( insert flame here)

gun-nut · 01-16-2011, 12:40 AM

I agree with the power of that little 7.62x25 round, it is hot! i have a cz52 and love it but the mags do like to ware out. I do like the fast slide and barrel removal. Makes cleaning fast. If you spend just a little time on the mags and do some work, you can get them to take 9 rds.

remington30 · 01-21-2011, 10:09 AM

Mitja -
I was searching for info on the M57 and stumbled on this forum. Do you have any information as to which serial numbers correspond to which years of production?

My M57 has SFRJ grip panels and six digit electropencil arsenal marks on the major component groups as you mentioned. The pistol was completely new when I purchased it, although it was coated in cosmoline. The serial number on the slide is O-270xxx. Any information you have is appreciated.

It is a very interesting, well built pistol, and I intend to buy a spare soon for a .22 caliber wildcat project.

MJ1 · 02-23-2011, 07:36 PM

$200

I can hit the black on a rifle target at 100 yards no problem.

Solid handgun great deal, collectable who cares?

permafrost · 02-23-2011, 11:07 PM

Can I get an A-men to that! These are superb weapons. I see you even shoot the same ammo I do. Nice to take out your pistol and ring steel at 100+ yards!

steve666 · 03-04-2011, 09:12 AM

The February issue of GunTests magazine did a side by side comparison of the Czech M57 and the Romanian TT33 and found that M57 was a much better gun with a much better add-on safety. It also has a magazine safety (won't fire without the magazine) and holds one more round.

Yosemite · 03-13-2011, 09:34 PM

Wonder how much the new ones cost shipped from Serbia?

Bumperguns · 03-14-2011, 01:13 PM

How much are you looking for, for the M-57,s and photos if possible.
Jeff

bubba15301 · 03-14-2011, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oscarmayer

this is my first experience with the 7.62x25 i didn't realize it was as hot of a round as it is. it exceeds 9mm +p ballistics if i'm reading correctly. 85 gr @ 1300 + fps with 500 ftlbs me

chronographed my cz52-85 gr fmj -1570fps -temperture 20 degrees f.

bubba15301 · 03-14-2011, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helix_FR

Its a hot round I had a CZ52 that I called my Flame Beltching Hand Cannon. It was the fastest hand gun round until the 357 magnum hit the market. It was not really all that effective in battle however. Over penetration! could take down 2 men if standing one behind the other.

it is faster than a .357

Old Steve · 03-18-2011, 01:43 AM

As far as lethality, the 7.62 x 25 has probably killed more men than any other small arm, this is because a majority of about 6 million Russian soldiers carried the PPSh-41 as their primary weapon through about 3 years of war, and Germans carried it too if they could find one. It considerably outranged the 9mm MP38/40 and far more firepower than the 98K at combat ranges. It also was the incentive for the German 8mm Kurz automatic rifles. If one could generate the data, he might find that tha 22LR rimfire has killed more, having been universally available for more than 120 years, but not in a military sense.

polishshooter · 04-20-2011, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by permafrost

I have to agree as to their collector status. I imagine some of the originals are in the US without the added safety and that damn GIANT billboard import stamp, but I haven't seen one. They would definitely be more collectable. I personally love the two I have, but had to modify the add on safety on both of them for them to work correctly. What a shame to deface these weapons. They are built better than any other Tokarev out there, including the Russian. OK go ahead and jump on me( insert flame here)

Perm, I HEAR you...but then again, did we Crufflers (OK, in my case, an EX-cruffler) REALLY get into it to be "collectors" or shooters of foreign exotic guns we would never have owned CHEAPLY?

Yeah, I too have been upset where the import stamp was on on many FINE guns, and is why many of the few I have left were ones stamped DISCREETLY under the barrel and not over the CHAMBER..if they TRULY were "Collector's Items" WOULD we have bought them in the first place considering the price?

I am NOT a "Collector," but a "Shooter." for example I have owned at LEAST 150 various Mosin Nagants in various condition but am now down to only one M38, four M44s, and 4 91/30s... EACH one tells a story, including the $9.95 Century Ufixem special I call my rehab rifle, that I rebuilt from parts when I was recovering from my heart attack and shoots pretty well besides...

Outside of a few REALLY rough transition pre-1930 91/30s, every ONE I still have left is because they SHOOT pretty well...

So in the ling run, give it to me cheap, have it shoot well, and I don't give a rat's behind where they put the stamp....

If it was truly COLLECTIBLE, yeah, I could be sitting on a gold mine, BUT I probably wouldn't have bought it in the first place.....

And I don't know if you've noticed, but no matter WHAT guns I bought with my CRFFL, I never sold ONE without making a tidy profit...

...and I wish I would have bought a helluva lot MORE of the 3/$99 "Dropped in the Rubble no more than Twice" condition 91/30s when I had the chance....

permafrost · 04-21-2011, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polishshooter

Perm, I HEAR you...but then again, did we Crufflers (OK, in my case, an EX-cruffler) REALLY get into it to be "collectors" or shooters of foreign exotic guns we would never have owned CHEAPLY?

Yeah, I too have been upset where the import stamp was on on many FINE guns, and is why many of the few I have left were ones stamped DISCREETLY under the barrel and not over the CHAMBER..if they TRULY were "Collector's Items" WOULD we have bought them in the first place considering the price?

I am NOT a "Collector," but a "Shooter." for example I have owned at LEAST 150 various Mosin Nagants in various condition but am now down to only one M38, four M44s, and 4 91/30s... EACH one tells a story, including the $9.95 Century Ufixem special I call my rehab rifle, that I rebuilt from parts when I was recovering from my heart attack and shoots pretty well besides...

Outside of a few REALLY rough transition pre-1930 91/30s, every ONE I still have left is because they SHOOT pretty well...

So in the ling run, give it to me cheap, have it shoot well, and I don't give a rat's behind where they put the stamp....

If it was truly COLLECTIBLE, yeah, I could be sitting on a gold mine, BUT I probably wouldn't have bought it in the first place.....

And I don't know if you've noticed, but no matter WHAT guns I bought with my CRFFL, I never sold ONE without making a tidy profit...

...and I wish I would have bought a helluva lot MORE of the 3/$99 "Dropped in the Rubble no more than Twice" condition 91/30s when I had the chance....

Yeah, I hear you. Just that I REALLY like those M57's. I will except the stamps to get a fine weapon at such a good price. I too have sold milsurp at good profit. Really never had much problem with discreet stamps. Just bitchin' mainly because PW Arms picked the absolutely easiest spot they could find to put their stamp! Pisses me off in an irrational kinda way, I know. They still shoot great! I'd take a dozen more if I could afford them. What can I say?

duck32man · 04-21-2011, 10:09 PM

I just got an M57 and love it. Sights are not the best but who cares it's just fun to shoot. And it seems to like misurp ammo without a hiccup.

waynescyclegarage · 05-15-2011, 10:04 PM

Just got my M57 from SOG. It is in new condition but on my first test I could not hit inside of a 20 inch circle at 15 feet!! After another good cleaning and some practice I can now get within a 10 inch circle at 15ft. I think I have some really crappy ammo, the cases are split sometimes on both sides. I don't know the manufacture but the case is marked 22 on top and 84 on the bottom. I am waiting on some SB ordered from JG and I hope that solves the problem.
I am really impressed with the condition and workmanship that went into this pistol and I expect to get decent accuracy with new ammo. If not this would be the worst gun I have ever owned. After reading some of the posts I feel better about buying this beautiful firearm.
huff

polishshooter · 05-16-2011, 12:10 AM

I slugged mine over the weekend and found my bore is .313

They supposedly vary from .307 to .314 or .316! The tighter ones are supposedly the "tack drivers" some guys have and can shoot handloads well....

Which is probably why my ten yard groups are 4-6".

I was advised to try Privi Partisan ammo in it it I can't find actual Yugo surplus ammo, since that is the same Serbian factory that made all the Yugo surplus too, so it is INTENDED for the M57...

That being said, if that doesn't work, I guess I go on my "quest" like I did until I finally found an M38 carbine that shot worth a crap... sell this one, buy another, slug/shoot it, sell it, buy another, slug/shoot it...until I get one with a bore closer to .308...

I slugged mine with a .375 Hornady round ball from my son's .36 Navy...used a section of a broken aluminum cleaning rod and it swaged it down after a few good raps with a hammer from the chamber end, and then pushed it through the bore nicely, with a good impint of the lands and grooves. then I miked it land to land....or is that groove to groove since it's backwards?

polishshooter · 05-16-2011, 12:12 AM

And oh yeah that 84/22 is Romanian...I have a box too and my box was labeled....

waynescyclegarage · 05-16-2011, 12:29 PM

Thanks Polishshooter, I should get my new ammo tomorrow and will update. I may slug it if I can't get any suitable accuracy. This gun appeared to have never been fired or carried. Hand pick from SOG, nice holster two mags. Only problem was the price was $199.95 but they charged me $205.95? Hand pick and shipping came to $239.95. Still not bad for a new gun.

waynescyclegarage · 05-16-2011, 07:51 PM

Hi Polishshooter, still shooting the last of the 22/84 ammo. I stood within 3 ft of the target and hit 10" low and 2" left?!. Slugged it and it is .309
I have never experienced anything like this. I am no expert by any means but this is very unusual. I will wait till I get some more bullets and will report back.
WTF

waynescyclegarage · 05-17-2011, 08:30 PM

Still waiting on new ammo even though I have no idea how that can explain the accuracy problem.
Is there any info on manufacture dates of these M57's. I noticed from the pics that most I have seen have 6 digit numbers stamped on them. Mine has 4 numbers, 3879. I would like to find out when it was made. Again it is in like new condition, if I can figure out how I will post some pics.
wayne

Old Steve · 05-18-2011, 12:58 PM

It is much simpler to make a barrel for a Tokarev than for a 1911, the designer went to some length to simplify manufacture. Since I have no means to do the rifling, my solution was to cut a 8 in piece off a Shilen .308 barrel blank and machine away the metal that wasn't part of a Tokarev barrel. This worked fine, and my 1941 Russian is now very accurate, but there at several companies that make an almost infinite variety of barrels for 1911s and others. But as long as the main reason for these guns is to be able to shoot a large variety of overage Eastern European surplus ammuniton of original quality ranging from fairly good to awful, those companies won't be interested in supplying good Tokarev barrels, and the original manufacturers didn't seem to be very interested in barrel quality. The only ammo I shoot in the new barrel is handloads from Starline brass and Sierra bullets. New S&B would be OK but it is more expensive.

If quality is not an issue, then these pistols are just surplus military junk, some of which is usuable.

polishshooter · 05-18-2011, 04:12 PM

Wayne, what kind of hold do you use on the target? I started with a 6 oclock hold with the target rings resting on the front sight since a lot of milsurp handguns I have shot shoot high, and my first two mags shot low like that too, but directly to point of aim.

Holding center of the target my groups then centered nicely in the target rings.

Funny that yours isn't accurate with the .309 bore Hhmmm....

Many guys claim their Tokarevs are very accurate, although many do not.

But in comparison every Makarov I have shot, from the East German to the Russian Commercial Baikals are VERY surprisingly accurate with either milsurp of virtually any make or new ammo

.

waynescyclegarage · 05-18-2011, 08:52 PM

Hi Polish shooter, my first trys with my CZ82 were very disapointing but now I am pleased with it. I think my Tokarev will work out also. As I said I am not an expert but I know quality of workmanship and this M57 is well made and I'm sure the problem is me or the particular ammo. I still have not recieved my SB from SG yet, it was shipped friday so surely I will get it tomorrow.
I will shoot some with a rest instead of standing and see what happens. I had to get used to using a full bead with my CZ with tip of front sight on center and get nice groups.
I know I can't compare the Tok with my MK11 but I was just shocked at how bad I was shooting. I am certain that this will turn out to be one of my favorites and I will learn how to shoot it properly.
After all there are guys on this page hitting the pie plate at 100 yds!!
What are the barrels made of? They look like stainless steel.
I really should not have judged this gun till I have spent more time with it.
Thanks everyone, I want it to shoot like my 1895 Nagant, I have a like new 1928 Tula that is a tack driver.
Wayne

waynescyclegarage · 05-19-2011, 05:24 PM

UNBELIEVABLE!! Just came in from the range( front yard) and tried the new ammo from SB and am hitting within a 3 or 4" circle from about 20 feet standing two handed normal shot.
I did not think it could make that much difference since the old Romanian stuff was not keyholing. No more split cases etc. This will be a favotite

This M57 is a keeper and in the right hands would be a tack driver. Can't wait till I get used to it and try some longer shots.
Thanks for the help.
wayne

01-08-2011, 08:05 AM	#26
woolleyworm TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: SW Fort Worth Contributor Posts: 4,885	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 Mitja - thanks for the informative posts; great info ! I've got a friend that has an M57 and this should answer a couple of his questions about the gun. __________________ . What are you gonna do, talk the alien to death? -- (on Sigourney Weaver's worry about Guns in Aliens) "Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands." "I carry a small gun to compensate for my huge Blue press." .

01-16-2011, 12:40 AM	#28
gun-nut Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: ohio Contributor Posts: 931	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 I agree with the power of that little 7.62x25 round, it is hot! i have a cz52 and love it but the mags do like to ware out. I do like the fast slide and barrel removal. Makes cleaning fast. If you spend just a little time on the mags and do some work, you can get them to take 9 rds.

01-21-2011, 10:09 AM	#29
remington30 Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 Mitja - I was searching for info on the M57 and stumbled on this forum. Do you have any information as to which serial numbers correspond to which years of production? My M57 has SFRJ grip panels and six digit electropencil arsenal marks on the major component groups as you mentioned. The pistol was completely new when I purchased it, although it was coated in cosmoline. The serial number on the slide is O-270xxx. Any information you have is appreciated. It is a very interesting, well built pistol, and I intend to buy a spare soon for a .22 caliber wildcat project. Last edited by remington30; 01-21-2011 at 06:11 PM.. Reason: The C was actually a poorly engraved O

02-23-2011, 07:36 PM	#30
MJ1 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 97	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 $200 I can hit the black on a rifle target at 100 yards no problem. Solid handgun great deal, collectable who cares?

02-23-2011, 11:07 PM	#31
permafrost Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Oklahoma, USA Contributor Posts: 1,771	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 Can I get an A-men to that! These are superb weapons. I see you even shoot the same ammo I do. Nice to take out your pistol and ring steel at 100+ yards!

03-04-2011, 09:12 AM	#32
steve666 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 231	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 The February issue of GunTests magazine did a side by side comparison of the Czech M57 and the Romanian TT33 and found that M57 was a much better gun with a much better add-on safety. It also has a magazine safety (won't fire without the magazine) and holds one more round. __________________ An armed society is a polite society.

03-13-2011, 09:34 PM	#33
Yosemite Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Ulan Bator Posts: 23	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 Wonder how much the new ones cost shipped from Serbia?

03-14-2011, 01:13 PM	#34
Bumperguns Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: albany NY Posts: 7	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 How much are you looking for, for the M-57,s and photos if possible. Jeff

03-18-2011, 01:43 AM	#37
Old Steve V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 As far as lethality, the 7.62 x 25 has probably killed more men than any other small arm, this is because a majority of about 6 million Russian soldiers carried the PPSh-41 as their primary weapon through about 3 years of war, and Germans carried it too if they could find one. It considerably outranged the 9mm MP38/40 and far more firepower than the 98K at combat ranges. It also was the incentive for the German 8mm Kurz automatic rifles. If one could generate the data, he might find that tha 22LR rimfire has killed more, having been universally available for more than 120 years, but not in a military sense.

04-21-2011, 10:09 PM	#40
duck32man V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Anti-Gun, Illinois Posts: 172	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 I just got an M57 and love it. Sights are not the best but who cares it's just fun to shoot. And it seems to like misurp ammo without a hiccup.

05-15-2011, 10:04 PM	#41
waynescyclegarage V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Central Alabama Posts: 124	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 Just got my M57 from SOG. It is in new condition but on my first test I could not hit inside of a 20 inch circle at 15 feet!! After another good cleaning and some practice I can now get within a 10 inch circle at 15ft. I think I have some really crappy ammo, the cases are split sometimes on both sides. I don't know the manufacture but the case is marked 22 on top and 84 on the bottom. I am waiting on some SB ordered from JG and I hope that solves the problem. I am really impressed with the condition and workmanship that went into this pistol and I expect to get decent accuracy with new ammo. If not this would be the worst gun I have ever owned. After reading some of the posts I feel better about buying this beautiful firearm. huff

05-16-2011, 12:10 AM	#42
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,863	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 I slugged mine over the weekend and found my bore is .313 They supposedly vary from .307 to .314 or .316! The tighter ones are supposedly the "tack drivers" some guys have and can shoot handloads well.... Which is probably why my ten yard groups are 4-6". I was advised to try Privi Partisan ammo in it it I can't find actual Yugo surplus ammo, since that is the same Serbian factory that made all the Yugo surplus too, so it is INTENDED for the M57... That being said, if that doesn't work, I guess I go on my "quest" like I did until I finally found an M38 carbine that shot worth a crap... sell this one, buy another, slug/shoot it, sell it, buy another, slug/shoot it...until I get one with a bore closer to .308... I slugged mine with a .375 Hornady round ball from my son's .36 Navy...used a section of a broken aluminum cleaning rod and it swaged it down after a few good raps with a hammer from the chamber end, and then pushed it through the bore nicely, with a good impint of the lands and grooves. then I miked it land to land....or is that groove to groove since it's backwards? __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.

05-16-2011, 12:12 AM	#43
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,863	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 And oh yeah that 84/22 is Romanian...I have a box too and my box was labeled.... __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.

05-16-2011, 12:29 PM	#44
waynescyclegarage V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Central Alabama Posts: 124	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 Thanks Polishshooter, I should get my new ammo tomorrow and will update. I may slug it if I can't get any suitable accuracy. This gun appeared to have never been fired or carried. Hand pick from SOG, nice holster two mags. Only problem was the price was $199.95 but they charged me $205.95? Hand pick and shipping came to $239.95. Still not bad for a new gun.

05-16-2011, 07:51 PM	#45
waynescyclegarage V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Central Alabama Posts: 124	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 Hi Polishshooter, still shooting the last of the 22/84 ammo. I stood within 3 ft of the target and hit 10" low and 2" left?!. Slugged it and it is .309 I have never experienced anything like this. I am no expert by any means but this is very unusual. I will wait till I get some more bullets and will report back. WTF

05-17-2011, 08:30 PM	#46
waynescyclegarage V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Central Alabama Posts: 124	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 Still waiting on new ammo even though I have no idea how that can explain the accuracy problem. Is there any info on manufacture dates of these M57's. I noticed from the pics that most I have seen have 6 digit numbers stamped on them. Mine has 4 numbers, 3879. I would like to find out when it was made. Again it is in like new condition, if I can figure out how I will post some pics. wayne

05-18-2011, 12:58 PM	#47
Old Steve V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 It is much simpler to make a barrel for a Tokarev than for a 1911, the designer went to some length to simplify manufacture. Since I have no means to do the rifling, my solution was to cut a 8 in piece off a Shilen .308 barrel blank and machine away the metal that wasn't part of a Tokarev barrel. This worked fine, and my 1941 Russian is now very accurate, but there at several companies that make an almost infinite variety of barrels for 1911s and others. But as long as the main reason for these guns is to be able to shoot a large variety of overage Eastern European surplus ammuniton of original quality ranging from fairly good to awful, those companies won't be interested in supplying good Tokarev barrels, and the original manufacturers didn't seem to be very interested in barrel quality. The only ammo I shoot in the new barrel is handloads from Starline brass and Sierra bullets. New S&B would be OK but it is more expensive. If quality is not an issue, then these pistols are just surplus military junk, some of which is usuable.

05-18-2011, 04:12 PM	#48
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,863	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 Wayne, what kind of hold do you use on the target? I started with a 6 oclock hold with the target rings resting on the front sight since a lot of milsurp handguns I have shot shoot high, and my first two mags shot low like that too, but directly to point of aim. Holding center of the target my groups then centered nicely in the target rings. Funny that yours isn't accurate with the .309 bore Hhmmm.... Many guys claim their Tokarevs are very accurate, although many do not. But in comparison every Makarov I have shot, from the East German to the Russian Commercial Baikals are VERY surprisingly accurate with either milsurp of virtually any make or new ammo . __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.

05-18-2011, 08:52 PM	#49
waynescyclegarage V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Central Alabama Posts: 124	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 Hi Polish shooter, my first trys with my CZ82 were very disapointing but now I am pleased with it. I think my Tokarev will work out also. As I said I am not an expert but I know quality of workmanship and this M57 is well made and I'm sure the problem is me or the particular ammo. I still have not recieved my SB from SG yet, it was shipped friday so surely I will get it tomorrow. I will shoot some with a rest instead of standing and see what happens. I had to get used to using a full bead with my CZ with tip of front sight on center and get nice groups. I know I can't compare the Tok with my MK11 but I was just shocked at how bad I was shooting. I am certain that this will turn out to be one of my favorites and I will learn how to shoot it properly. After all there are guys on this page hitting the pie plate at 100 yds!! What are the barrels made of? They look like stainless steel. I really should not have judged this gun till I have spent more time with it. Thanks everyone, I want it to shoot like my 1895 Nagant, I have a like new 1928 Tula that is a tack driver. Wayne

05-19-2011, 05:24 PM	#50
waynescyclegarage V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Central Alabama Posts: 124	Re: zastava m57/ tokarev 7.62x25 UNBELIEVABLE!! Just came in from the range( front yard) and tried the new ammo from SB and am hitting within a 3 or 4" circle from about 20 feet standing two handed normal shot. I did not think it could make that much difference since the old Romanian stuff was not keyholing. No more split cases etc. This will be a favotite This M57 is a keeper and in the right hands would be a tack driver. Can't wait till I get used to it and try some longer shots. Thanks for the help. wayne