Today's 7-Shot Range-Report

[GConn]

Greetings Gang,

I'm afraid today's shots - with a two-handed grip for the first time - were not nearly as accurate as I thought they would be.

Kel-Tec PF-9 - Standard/stock sights - Total 21 shots squeezed through it to date.

I numbered the shots here, marked in blue...from somewhere between 21 & 24 feet (7-8 yards, depending if we go by where my feet were or where my pistol was - arms extended).

Wow. This appears pretty danged bad, to me...

Glad to hear all comments, suggestions, opinions advise, etc.

Thanks in advance,
Glenn...
PS ~ Experienced my first FTF today.

[Juker]

Well, if the bad guy was shifting to his left in a crouch, you got him in both eyes and both nuts...

How do you like the recoil? Is it jumping to the right?

[GConn]

Originally Posted by Juker

Well, if the bad guy was shifting to his left in a crouch, you got him in both eyes and both nuts...

How do you like the recoil? Is it jumping to the right?

Yeah - ha.

Recoil is not bad...not great but not bad...I'd say, considering how tiny this 9mm is, the recoil is actually pretty good. Overall I'd call it "average" or "normal".

If it's jumping to the right, it's un-discernible to me...I can't tell.

There was a slight bit of wind (tends to "swirl" here in the hills), but not enough to blow those shots off THAT much...

[Juker]

I see.

If you don't mind my asking, considering the forum this is in, what's your level of disability?

[GConn]

Originally Posted by Juker

I see.

If you don't mind my asking, considering the forum this is in, what's your level of disability?

I've had four spine surgeries, due to a combination of congenital and 'wear-n-tear' problems. Have lost a good bit of feeling in my hands in addition to having lost some fine-motor (small motor?) skill/coordination,and have some issues with balance, etc. at times. I have had some (upper-body) paralysis. I have arthritis literally head-to-toe.
'
Badly crushed a leg (actually crushed it pretty danged GOOD!) in late 2006, and that gives me trouble too.

The resultant depression and anxiety from the physical issues (at age 50 now), after having been an extremely physical individual all my life, has been, well, a bit much ... much more than I was originally equipped to handle.

[Juker]

My brother, I'd say you are WAY ahead of the game. To be able to group anything close to what you shot, laid up as you are, borders on miraculous!

[todd51]

Hey Glenn, don't beat your self up on that group. A six inch group at 7 yards with that Kel Tec is nothing to sneeze at, especially considering you have only fired 21 rounds through the pistol. Whether we have shot seven rounds or seven hundred we still must remember some of the things that can get us in trouble. Lock that wrist tight as you can, don't anticipate the shot which will lead to jerking the trigger, squeeze the shot off and let it be a surprise when it goes bang, and always fight that flinch which I have to be careful of all the time. It is my main reason for results I don't like. That failure to feed could be the result of a lot of things but looking at your group I am guessing that your wrist is not locked allowing for what some call the limp wrist which can sure result in a FTF. I'm no expert and hopefully one will be along but I hope these comments can be of a help. Enjoy shooting your pistol and don't get down on yourself.

Todd

[GConn]

Hey thank you both a bunch...frankly I don't think I've ever even fired a total of 100 rounds through a handgun (any handgun) yet. Probably just short of 100 rounds (75-90) spread out over the last year-and-a-half.

So, I have MUCH to learn! Ha.

Much more experience with long-guns.

Thanks to you both again,
Glenn

[Dirtypacman]

Hello Glenn,

I think its awesome that your keeping up on the hobby.
Just remember if that was in self defense you have 7 shots and the bad guy would be down from the looks of the target Sure you may have scared the hell out of him with the first few but you can just call those warning shots.

[GConn]

Hello DirrtyPacMan and thanks!

I think maybe I should better explain how I went-about taking these shots (even though it will probably mean I'm an even WORSE shot than I originally thought haha...

I took these shots very s-l-o-w-l-y ... one at a time. In order to "number" the shots, I walked up to the target after each one so that I would be sure to have them accurately numbered. There was probably close to something like 5 minutes between each shot - not rapid-fire as I may have implied (?) in this thread.

Thanks again to all - and HAPPY SHOOTIN' !

[Dirtypacman]

Originally Posted by GConn

Hello DirrtyPacMan and thanks!

I think maybe I should better explain how I went-about taking these shots (even though it will probably mean I'm an even WORSE shot than I originally thought haha...

I took these shots very s-l-o-w-l-y ... one at a time. In order to "number" the shots, I walked up to the target after each one so that I would be sure to have them accurately numbered. There was probably close to something like 5 minutes between each shot - not rapid-fire as I may have implied (?) in this thread.

Thanks again to all - and HAPPY SHOOTIN' !

I did not get the impression that they were shot rapid fire. Thanks for the clarification though.

Do you load your own or do you use factory? Might be something you could get into also - I love reloading.

[JUNKKING]

GConn, Those are really good groups with a Kel-Tec P9 especially you saying you have numbness in your hands. The P9 as does my P40 take some getting used to. The trigger pull is long and not light by any means. If you practice at home with the gun unloaded of course and no magazine in the gun. Just practice squeezing that trigger and finding the breaking point of it your groups will be so far advanced the next time you go to the range you will surprise yourself. Like said above for only firing 21 shots through this gun you did fabulous also said above 7 in the bad guy. Nice Job!! JUNK

[GConn]

Originally Posted by JUNKKING

GConn, Those are really good groups with a Kel-Tec P9 especially you saying you have numbness in your hands. The P9 as does my P40 take some getting used to. The trigger pull is long and not light by any means. If you practice at home with the gun unloaded of course and no magazine in the gun. Just practice squeezing that trigger and finding the breaking point of it your groups will be so far advanced the next time you go to the range you will surprise yourself. Like said above for only firing 21 shots through this gun you did fabulous also said above 7 in the bad guy. Nice Job!! JUNK

Hey thank you a bunch JUNKKING - and I Love that name by the way! And here I thought I was the Junk King ... I reckon I'm only a prince, or maybe just a Duke haha!!

I should probably also explain that my "strength" (relatively speaking) is Good...the docs have always seemed a bit surprised - but then I had above average strength before the problems caught-up to me - owing to some years in the moving and storage business as well as always having tried to stay in shape...stay strong.

Yes, I recently got some Snap Caps, but I'll need to get another as these are plastic, and seem to be coming apart with very little usage...I understand now that there are Snap Caps made of aluminum, which I plan to get soon.

Some folks say it's ok to squeeze this Kel-Tec trigger with the pistol unloaded - but plenty others say "no", and I feel uncomfortable doing so ... and it's just an old habit of not doing it for all my years... that's just the way I was trained, to not squeeze triggers with an unloaded weapon.

So thank you all again, and I will check-in here soon, and we'll "see" ya all then!

g

[carver]

GConn, after reading all that you have posted here, I too think that you didn't do that bad. Shooting a pistol, of any kind, takes some getting used to, and a little professional help with that dread trigger pull will help a whole lot. If you can get a friend, or family member, to shoot your pistol at the same distance, you might be surprised. If you chose someone with your level of experience, you may find that they are shooting the same kind of groups that you are. If you choose someone with a lot of experience with hand guns, their groups will show you what your gun is more capable of. If the experienced shooter shoots tighter groups than you do, then you just need to work on your game. Another way to determine if it's the gun, or just you, is to shoot if off a bench rest. I remember my first pistol, and how well (really, really, bad) I could shoot it to start with! Man I was bad, not nearly as good as the group in you photo.

[JLA]

GConn, Im assuming youre right handed here, pull your trigger finger out of the guard just a bit and tighten the grip on your left hand without tightening the grip on your right. These 2 techniques coupled together will create a mechanical bind on the pistol and force you to shoot it to the left, thus correcting for it shooting it right.

All in all tho, disabled or not, thats not bad for a teeny mini 9 in the hands of a person that hasnt really shot a handgun much...

Keep up the practice!

[GConn]

Gentlemen - carver & JLA - thank you much - your comments are VERY MUCH appreciated. And I very much take your comments, suggestions opinions and advice to Heart. It helps...it really really helps to have the moral support - as well as the expertise.

I agree with all written here (which is a bit unusual for me - haha) and I have seen here in recent days, buy using some Snap Caps, that the pistol does indeed want to jump to the right ever-so-slightly (well heck, it does more than "want to", it does unless I am pretty dog-on aggressive with my grip ... TOO aggressive -or too "tight" - I think).

One-hand is not gettin' it done no matter how tight I grip it, so, I most certainly will need to use a two-handed grip, which seems to help quite well - especially now that I've read what you fine folks have written here.

Another thing I read recently - in addition to the suggestions from you fine men - is to slightly "push" (I think it said) with my right hand while slightly "pulling" with my left at the same time...? You fellers ever heard of that? May be a slight modification of what you were saying Mr. JLA?

Thanks again gents! "HSS"! ~ Happy-SAFE-shootin'!

[JLA]

yeah, kinda the same thing there. You want to put the pistol high (grip, pistol should be as low as it will go into the web of your hand) and comfortable in your shooting hand, then grip both the pistol and your shooting hand with your offhand. I can see the push pull thing, push the gun away with your shooting hand while you pull it in with your offhand. It creates the same mechanical bind.

Other than that I believe you are using the 'hollywood' trigger finger. Pull your trigger finger out of the trigger guard and engage the trigger low near the tip with the pad between your fingertip and first knuckle.. This prevents jerk and will allow you to defeat the heavy DA pull with a straight back press...

[GConn]

Originally Posted by JLA

yeah, kinda the same thing there. You want to put the pistol high (grip, pistol should be as low as it will go into the web of your hand) and comfortable in your shooting hand, then grip both the pistol and your shooting hand with your offhand. I can see the push pull thing, push the gun away with your shooting hand while you pull it in with your offhand. It creates the same mechanical bind.

Other than that I believe you are using the 'hollywood' trigger finger. Pull your trigger finger out of the trigger guard and engage the trigger low near the tip with the pad between your fingertip and first knuckle.. This prevents jerk and will allow you to defeat the heavy DA pull with a straight back press...

Hmmm, ok, I get (understand) the arms positioning, and the grip, however, I'll need to think about and practice/work-on this Hollywood finger of mine! That is going to take some work.

I don't exactly have the biggest "sausage fingers" in the world, but I'm a chunky-thick sorta guy, and I would say my fingers are a bit thicker than "average"...and it seems to me, this trigger and guard were designed for someone with slightly smaller digits than mine...as soon as I cross the threshold of the guard at even just the very minimum, the top of my finger (where the finger-nail is) - the top surface of the nail is touching against (just barely, but it is "brushing-up against") the inside, front part of the guard. I don't want to go TOO far OUT of the guard though, as that seems to loosen my grip ... or at least substantially loosens my contact with the trigger - and I'm afraid if I practice too much with it that way, and (Dear God forbid) the time ever comes where I MUST become defensive, I'm thinking more about keeping my finger OUT of the guard, than thinking about ALL the MYRIAD of things that I (that we all) may inevitably be thinking ... correct?

[JLA]

ill post a pic of what I mean. Youre not by any means gonna use a benchrest fingertip, you just dont want youre entire finger in there to engage the trigger.

Gimme a sec, ill upload the pics...

[JLA]

here we go, just had the wife snap a couple for me.

The Hollywood trigger is pictured first, followed by the proper trigger finger position.

The hollywood trigger position will cause you to pull your shots right if youre right handed and left if youre left handed...

[JLA]

note the white finger tips on my offhand from grip pressure. Thats that pulling/pushing you heard of in effect...

[GConn]

Originally Posted by JLA

note the white finger tips on my offhand from grip pressure. Thats that pulling/pushing you heard of in effect...

Man-alive...this is great! The pics are worth MORE than a thousand words...

The Good news, here, for me is: I'm already doing trigger-grip #2 (in your 2nd photo) - in fact, I'm actually not even going that deep into the guard, and have been concerned that I wasn't deep enough (that's what my girlfriend said too HA!!)

Anyway, thank you MORE THAN a thousand for these...helps immensely...it really does JLA! ;- ]
PS ~ I have a good amount of experience with triggers, and squeezing them...with the 12-gauge and a couple different rifles. Just not much with the handguns - which most certainly ARE different animals - thanks again!

[JLA]

Yessir! happy to help.

I help new shooters in my area learn how to shoot and MANY of them tend to do what they seen Jack Bower do on the TV series 24... The hollywood trigger is THE single most common problem I see new shooters have, besides flinching of course

[GConn]

Originally Posted by JLA

Yessir! happy to help.

I help new shooters in my area learn how to shoot and MANY of them tend to do what they seen Jack Bower do on the TV series 24... The hollywood trigger is THE single most common problem I see new shooters have, besides flinching of course

Excellent. I have to admit, flinching was HUGE for me at first (and I find can still be, depending on my mood) - even though I've shot long-guns for many years, something about that tiny-short barrel (a barrel of less than a couple feet long) was sorta spooky!

Was obvious from the very first time I loaded a round into a handgun, that this was somehow "more serious" ... potentially A LOT easier to hurt (KILL) someone or get hurt (DEAD)...somehow...? Or maybe it's just a psychological thing??

[JLA]

i believe it is psychological for most. The percieved explosion is a couple feet away with a rifle. with a pistol its right in the palm of your hand. It makes a big difference for someone that isnt a seasoned pistol shooter