Scope Snob? Not me!

[Kent Detective]

I was until recently a regular poster on a large well known pigeon shooting forum. All was okay until I happened to post a thread there about cheap scopes!

I made the mistake of telling people that MTC scopes in the UK are actually put together in CHINA using CHINESE parts and then sold in the UK by a husband and wife team for a premium price. I acknowledged the fact that the scopes were reasonable performing optics. What I dared to say was that taking into account the scopes were CHINESE, the prices asked was unreasonable compared to other similar CHINESE made scopes. Naughty me eh? A large group of prolific posters almost immediately descended on my thread and ganged up on me. These people were obviously enormously offended by my comments about MTC scopes.

With that the next time I tried to log on I was met with a white screen telling me I had been banned! No one had the decency to tell me why or give me a warning etc..

It would appear that the owners of the forum had some kind of tie up with MTC scopes in the UK. Apparently my thread had upset the powers to be...

This absolutely stinks. There are lots of forums out there who will ban you if you don't tow the line of the majority (of sheep).

It seems that there are people out there who will protect the BIG players under all circumstances. Threaten their livelihood and you risk an instant ban.

Then there are those people who take great pride in telling everyone how expensive their shooting gear is including such things as scopes etc. To challenge them is to make war! They react as though you were questioning their sanity.

Surely it's in all our interests to give sensible advice with regard to the cost of optics and not to lead newbies into buying expensive scopes when cheaper ones will suffice?

As I have stated on many occasions in the past, I have fitted expensive scopes to my rimfire rifles only to return to my cheap CHINESE made £30 JSR jobbies... Laugh if you like but I bet my hunting bag is as large as yours using "Gucci" kit?

The only time I will acknowledge more expensive optics are needed is with larger centrefire calibres.

I'll put my helmet on now for protection.

[WTC7SmokingGun]

At least it wasn't a multinational corp disguised as a US company. How many companies moved their HQ operations to Dubai during the boom? Fiat money is the root of all evil and trying to make it less so is just a lesson in futility. The truth is all wealth is created at the BOTTOM not the top. Every time they increase the money supply they're taking a chuck of that WEALTH out of your pocket and giving it to their banker buddies. THAT'S REDISTRIBUTION, not giving the people what they rightfully earned through blood, sweat and tears.. You're deluded if you see it any other way. XXX



<insert long string of profane expletives here>

[jblair]

I will have to agree wit the original post. My experience with Chinese optics comes from my other hobby (Astronomy). In years past, any optics made in China were considered substandard - and the were. This has changes in the last 7-10 years. With higher end equipment and better QC, several Chinese optic manufactures have put out some great quality products. Here is a link to a Chinese company that does binoculars, spotting scopes and now telescopes that has developed a reputation for putting out a good product.
http://united-optics.com/Products/Bi...-M_Series.html
Several small US companies with good reputations for offering quality products brand these Chinese products under their name. While they are no longer the cheapest product on the market, they give some of the high end Japanese and German optics makers a run for the money in quality.

[polishshooter]

I guess what bothers me most is companies with great American made reputations "quietly" having stuff built in China.

Like unless you look closely, that Gerber or Buck knife MAY have been made in CHina. Not all Gerbers and Bucks are, granted, but it seems a shame to see "Made in China" on ANY package that says Gerber or Buck on it.

But it goes deeper than that. RCBS has a wonderful reputation for shooting and reloading stuff. Which is one reason I begged Santa for my RASS Shooting Bench. I had buddies tell me I would LOVE RCBS stuff because it was over engineerred and "Made in America."

After I put the bench together in my living room and was happilly "Birdwatching through my various scopes, I noticed the SMALL "Made in China" on it.

Then I was reading reviews of powder measures on Midway's site, and was floored when I saw their classic green powder measure is now, you guessed it, "Made in China "

I hear you about "scope snobs" and I almost hate to admit that I have gotten good service from low end Bushnells (Made in China) and I am hoping the "World Class" Tasco 8x32 I got with my new Swift works fine, Even though I'm already catching grief that I need to buy a Leopold (Good greif let me SHOOT it first!)

[bbqznbeer]

A photo for referance
This is my 597mag with a Lymans 3X PermaCenter.
I've had this scope on my Lee Enfield .
These were top of the line scopes back in the 50's - 60's and were built like tanks .

[dksac2]

For my 22's, I go a little more than cheap, but not expensive.

The Mueller APV 4 X 14 X 40 AO scopes are fantastic, worth twice the price of about $130. delivered. Lifetime warrenty, you break it, they just send a new one. Their 8 X 32 X 40, side focus AO is a fantastic target scope for $225.00
Very sharp and bright. Best bang for the buck by far. You have to spend twice as much to get a better scope, and an AO scope is a must.

On my airguns, I use BSA Air Gun 3 X 12 X 50 AO's for $50.00. They are darn good for the money. Not as nice as the Mueller, but the Mueller is not an airgun scope. I've shot thousands of rounds without a failure. Great scope for fifty bucks at Natchez shooters supply.
Some of the scopes mentioned on the other side of the pond, I have not heard of in the USA.

My Best, John K

[Kent Detective]

The point of me posting this thread was to try and highlight the fact that often people starting out are wrongly advised (often by people with a vested interest) that their new rimfire .22 requires expensive optics (bought with the gun)! This couldn't be further from the truth.

In most cases hunting or target shooting a simple airgun scope is all that is needed. Airgun scopes are designed to withstand the recoil from powerful spring air rifles and they are often made as strong if not stronger than expensive optics.

Then there are the people who enjoy telling everyone else what expensive "gucci" kit they have! I'm afraid I have come across many people like this on forums like this one. They often gang up on people with an alternative opinion to their own. Forums are full of people like this and it is particularly prevalent here in the UK. That's why I prefer Yank sites.

Lastly there are the people out there who will recommend whatever they happen to be using without any understanding of it's performance compared to other scopes of similar standing. They recommend there scope just because they use it and it does the job.

I guess what I'm trying to say that of course it's okay to but and use expensive optics if you have the money but you should try and guide newcomers into using less expensive options in the first instance.

I prefer to use cheap £30 JSR scopes on my 2 rimfire rifles. I do possess a £300 scope which I currently use on my Diana 54 air rifle for target shooting and HFT.

I wear an expensive watch - an Omega Seamaster Professional. It's a very nicely made watch BUT it does exactly the SAME job as a Ticker Ticker Timex! That's the point I'm trying to make with optics.

[polishshooter]

Point well taken, Kent! The OTHER thing people forget is parallex for .22 rifles. Most guys might not even notice, but most 1" scopes for Centerfires are set for 100 yds, while .22 scopes should be set at 50, and most LOW end .22 scopes are! It CAN make a difference, even if you mount a high dollar scope intended for centerfire rifles on a .22. It did when I tried it!

I just bought 2 "$70" Bushnell Banner 4x32 ".22/Shotgun scopes" on clearance at Gander Mountain for $31 each!.. I have them on both my Glenfield carbine and my rebuilt old JC Higgins (Marlin 81). Finally shot the JC Higgins the other day and posted about it, and I am tickled with the performance of the scope (easily adjusted, sighted in quickly, great optics!)as well as the old rifle from my youth.

My two rifle shooting buddies definitely are "scope snobs," with high dollar Nikons on their Ruger 77/22s, but I will NOT feel ashamed this summer pulling out that old Marlin/Bushnell rig and shooting with them!

This weekend I hope to try the other one from the bench on my Glenfield 75c...I killed a LOT of squirrels with that gun with the cheap thin Tasco 4x that came standard with it!

[errolc]

I take the line...you can't hit what you can't see...& ... consistency is key.

I only have two .22s (a Krico & a Thompson Center semi) and use the older Japanese Tasco 6-24x40...picked both mint scopes up for $100nz...I've found the Ao (adjustable objective) just about bang on for the .22s as long as you focus right to the range, gives the impression the rifles shooting real flat but its the AO compensation working right on the money...

I don't have a lot to spend on my shooting but I buy the best I can afford with the intention of keeping it...to put that into perspective we pay $70 for a brick of CCI subs down under. I've found both scopes dial in the same and near enough identical to use and my Thompson semi's almost as accurate/consistant as the Krico 330 Bolt action. I tend to use 8-12 power mostly buts it real handy to be able to zoom in on those doubtfull sillouettes if the lights good enough.

Unfortunately you don't always get what you pay for and I don't believe a lot of the high priced scopes offer value or performance. I'd say the same about most of the cheap scopes too though and there'll always be exceptions..so you pays your money and takes your choice...everyone to their own, just like the cheaper sleeper rifles like the Norinco 332.

I've read a lot of forums about quality of glass etc etc but thats only half the issue...the mechanism that drives the adjustments is every bit as important and needs to be tight but smooth in action to have any hope of repeatable settings.

I don't know about the rabbits in your part of the world but ours here must have rockets up their behind cause its a bloody lucky shot to hit one on the run.

I've found using a suppressor good value...my mate doesn't and when he takes a shot anything in the paddock up and bolts...I have an MAE magnum suppressor and subs excellent... I've found rabbits always slink down for several seconds or so after the first shot/kill, and I can knock off most of a cluster in quick succession with the semi...our rabbits must be fairly social and seem to group a half dozen in close proximity. I use CCI CB longs in the Krico and CI Subs in the Thompson with good results...tried the CB longs in the semi with a few mods to fix the cycling issue...but they're bloody quiet and do the job out to 50mtrs quite nicely (didn't think they'd have any hit left). The CBs drop about 4" more than the subs in the Thompson and about 3" more in the Krico at 50mtrs.

I've tried a number of scopes before finding the Jap Tasco's I use, but have to say I like the Hawke 8-24x44 varmint as a new scope for performance & consistency.

As with anything physics can't be denied...as with cameras, all other things being equal, small objectives will never let as much light through as larger scopes...as with variable scopes will never give as good performance as fixed power because every lense lement inside the scope reflects a little light back...so you loose more image as yu zoom in and the lenses spread inside, and variable power scopes have typically double the lenses than fix power...add to that the sliding mechanisms that wear and the issues become clear (or not).

In this part of the world the belief is that pretty well any Japanese scope from the 80s will be good if its be well kept because all the cheaper Jpanese manufacturese hit the wall trying to compete against Korean and Taiwanese products and left mainly the better manufacturers and models.

My motto is...I intend to KEEP what I buy...I like what I like...and I like what I have...I'll like my Thompson more with a good stock...but at $500 for a blank laminate here, that'll have to wait a little while...mean while it just keeps knocking them off every time :-).

Seen a beautyfull second hand, not fired, Weatherby .22 Magnum in the gun shop yesterday and little over half new price ($1100) , I can't seem to get out of my mind...the wife would flip!

To change the subject...anyone got any good recipies to try...my wife doesn't like the gamey flavour of rabbit...even hidden in a curry...tried salting, brine, aging and ultra fresh...bleeding & dressing out in the paddock but that gamey sort of hint of motor oil she hates, persists.

[polishshooter]

My wife used to make a "Sour Rabbit" recipe passed down from her mother or grandmother when I used to hunt bunnies regularly, that involved vinegar in the gravy to spoon over the rabbit and the mashed potatos that was tasty, but I don't know if the rabbit was baked or not. I believe it was roasted in a pan and the juices made the gravy? All I know was the secret was the vinegar hence the "Sour" in the name.

[RunningOnMT]

Thanks Pops

[firelegs22]

"I've gotta tell you your antisemitism doesn't sit well with me and I'd appreciate the hell out of it if you'd refrain from that in the future."

+1

[pilote]

for the most part i don't use a scope with my rimfires; the exception MIGHT be for my .22 single shot magnum rifle; i have a BSA scope still unopened for that rifle...

my shooting (whether it's paper, spinners or small game hunting) is pretty much in the 10-50yd range...good iron sights (especially retrofitted with modern fiber optic front sights) are what i want to be proficient on, and i don't need a scope for 50yds...and i wear glasses too...no real interest in longer range shooting (though of course i will do some occasionally)...

if i really had interest in 100yd + shooting i'd get a centerfire; i wouldn't mess around with a little .22...then i'd be talking the talk about $700 leopold's and nikons...

[Kent Detective]

Originally Posted by firelegs22

"I've gotta tell you your antisemitism doesn't sit well with me and I'd appreciate the hell out of it if you'd refrain from that in the future."+1

Agreed this isn't the place for those comments BUT We do (both sides of the pond) (at the moment) live in a democracy where FREE SPEECH is sacred. Whether we like it or not this person is perfectly entitled to spout his warped ideas just not here on my thread about scope snobs. I dare say he's actually a very nice person who was bought up by parents who blamed the all worlds ills on jews!

We can't have it BOTH ways - either you allow freedom of speech or you don't. Words don't kill bullets do.

Many people are getting way to sensitive to mere words!

I'd argue that the REAL enemy of democracy isn't the Jews (Israel) at all but ISLAM! When was the last time you saw a jew killing NATO soldiers? Personally I would side with Israel against our common enemy.

The Koran doesn't even recognise the concept of democracy.

[RunningOnMT]

I can agree with you to an extent Kent Detective, but I think you will agree there is a bit of a difference between you being banned for expressing an opinion on a product and this kind of defamatory rhetoric.

Seeing as this is privately owned forum I don't believe all speech needs to be protected or tolerated. The owners have a right to control what they will or will not allow. The same may be true for the forum which banned you, but their actions couldn't be justified if claiming to promote intelligent discourse and fair play. They were idiots.

[polishshooter]

Not to hijack the thread but I went back and reread the thread and missed the one about Kent beating guys at the Skeet range with the Baikal...

My buddy belonged to a range and every time I was there we went to shoot Skeet, it's where I shot it for the first time, and also found out that I and my old '97 Winchester Riot gun weren't too bad at it.

But one time My buddy told me he had an old Savage 20 guage SxS and I told him to bring it I'd like to look at it, and before i left I threw a mixed box of 20 guage shells i had laying around from my son's first gun from when he was 9 about a decade and a half ago (mixed low brass 8s and high brass 6's)in my bag just in case.

At the range I fell in love with the beautifully stocked double, and after the old guy who owned the range checked it and told me it was "backwards," that the "wrong" barrel had the tighter choke, I offered my buddy $200 to take his "defective" gun off his hands (he declined) but anyway, he was getting ready to run a line on the trap range and he had an empty spot so I paid my $6 and walked to the line...

And shot 19 of 25! On my FIRST REAL go at Trap. I had fired at trap ranges before, but never a full 25, just occasionally between rounds, and even at that maybe three times in 40 years of shooting!

But what happened after was even funnier! The Owner had run the range and kept score, and I was the only shooter who stayed behind to help him pick up shells the other guys dumped DESPITE all the signs posted that sauid 'Please pick up your Empties!" and when everybody was out of ear shot he slapped me on the back and asked me if I saw the guy two stations down from me and I said yeah? and he said "He's a real @sshole. and he just spent $3000 on that custom 1100 trap gun, most of this brass we are picking up now is HIS, and he only shot 17! You beat him with an old field gun you never shot before with mixed cheap shells!"

He was ectatci, and after he "closed" he invited me and my frieind to stay behind, and about 5 of his closest buddies (INCLUDING us) then went back out and shot (Tried to shoot?) a round of Skeet with a Taurus Judge .410. his ammo, for FREE! My buddy got 1, I missed everything, the old guy got 10!

And I own a Baikal Makarov, that people look down on, but 9 times out of 10 when I carry, my .45 that i built and love stays home and the Makarov is on my belt... It WORKS!

[kentuckyrifleman]

I have Leopolds (mostly 3-9x's) on my centerfires, but I never felt the need to spend that kind of $ on my rimfires. Some of these new scopes cost more than trucks I have owned!! They have Bushnell 4x Banners on them, and I have no idea how they track, because I haven't not moved the screws in years.

[fn19rs]

Originally Posted by Kent Detective

Finally I'd like to add that I'm probably richer than most people I meet shooting and that if I wanted I could easily (waste) money like them. That is THE way to get rich in the first place.

just noticed this comment! a British EX COPPER who is richer than anyone else on here?? very strange,know how poorly paid they are.

[Kent Detective]

Who says I wasn't a BENT copper! lol....

Wallowing in my retirement (I wish). I just hate seeing others wasting hard earned dosh on expensive scopes. It's normally the gun shops who convince newbies to procure expensive gadgets which are often not needed in the first place.

I guess I may even be a bit tight who knows.

Joking aside, Any money I happen to now have is nothing to do with the job.

My mates in London (Met) are on average earning in the region of about £35,000 a year. Whatever way you look at this, £35k in today's climate is a pretty good wage. There are thousands upon thousands of people working very hard for less than £6 an hour which is an utter disgrace. No working person should be on less than £10 a hours and that goes for EVERYBODY. The money is out there but our political masters prefer to spend tax payers cash on dropping 2 million pound bombs on muslims (Libya).

I retired a few years ago after being badly injured (carrying out a deportation). I think that British police officers are indeed very well paid bearing in mind how ineffective the force (sorry service) has become. I blame poor management at Inspector level and above. Common sense seems to have flown out the window. Bad decisions are being made by bad coppers. I think Joe Public gets a very raw deal taking into account the amount of money most police authorities now get in Council tax (an open cheque book).

I joined the job in 1981 before all this "tick box", "League table" PC culture started. I saw REAL policing. We used to concentrate our resources on catching REAL criminals NOT going after easy touches such as the White Middle Class tax payers!

Rant over.......lol

[fn19rs]

Looking at the 'scopes that are available from JS Ramsbottom over here,I have to admit that the Leapers 4-12x44 ( £122.49p)that I have is a better 'scope that the £259 that I paid for my MTC 6-24x56, it has clearer optics,works better than the MTC in low light conditions,and is easier to focus (both are side wheel focus models).I'm now thinking of selling the MTC and replacing it with a Leapers 4-16x56 at £137.

[TheGunClinger]

I have been reading this thread for a goodly amount of time and I am just wondering why, if I should so desire to purchase a scope that is a name brand and expensive, would I be considered a scope snob? Just curious as I have guns that I bought cheap and guns that were expensive but would the expensive ones make me a gun snob or would the cheaply purchased guns make me ...what??? Personally I think that whatever you buy for whatever the reason shouldnt label you as a snob or anything else for that matter. This is just my opinion, take it or leave it depending if you are a snob or just a regular guy or gal.

[Kent Detective]

The "Scope Snob" statement is used here "tongue in cheek". Just a little bit of English humour. I don't expect you chaps to always get it.... We may be close in other ways but our humour is slightly different. Here the class system rules supreme still.

Of course it's a free world (where we live) - If you wish to buy expensive gear it's perfectly okay. The point of this thread is to highlight the fact that the cheaper stuff often performs exactly the same as the expensive stuff. It may not always last as long but it does represent outstanding value for money...

Contrary to popular belief an airgun scope is all you need with rimfire.

Then there are the shooters out there who just enjoy "boasting" to others that they possess the most expensive gear available. It is these people I personally can't tolerate.

[TheGunClinger]

Originally Posted by Kent Detective

The "Scope Snob" statement is used here "tongue in cheek". Just a little bit of English humour. I don't expect you chaps to always get it.... We may be close in other ways but our humour is slightly different. Here the class system rules supreme still.

Of course it's a free world (where we live) - If you wish to buy expensive gear it's perfectly okay. The point of this thread is to highlight the fact that the cheaper stuff often performs exactly the same as the expensive stuff. It may not always last as long but it does represent outstanding value for money...

Contrary to popular belief an airgun scope is all you need with rimfire.

Then there are the shooters out there who just enjoy "boasting" to others that they possess the most expensive gear available. It is these people I personally can't tolerate.

Got you covered!

[Kent Detective]

Over here in Britland I'm afraid class is still a real issue. Regardless of what you might hear (from politicians) the UK is still a very unfair place to live if you haven't the right connections and didn't go to the right school. Our Tory government is a case in point - almost all the cabinet are millionaires in their own right and 99% of them went to public schools.

A huge proportion of hardworking decent law abiding people are paid less than £6 a hour which in this day and age is an absolute disgrace. No one who works should earn less than £10 a hour.

The reason why I posted this thread is that I'm tired of all the gunshops selling expensive scopes to newbies starting out. The newbies are often given advice from sellers with a vested interest in selling the most expensive scopes. Anyone who knows about rimfire will tell you that AIRGUN scopes are all you need. These are designed to be zeroed at 50 yards and will put up with massive recoil from spring airguns.

Some of the scopes made in China are brilliant buys and are made almost as well as scopes costing 3 times more.

LEAPERS scopes is a case in point. Fantastic value for money. A mid-range leapers scope is as good if not better than some others costing £300 plus. FACT.

What the manufacturers aren't telling us is that a huge amount of so called "homemade USA/UK" scopes are actually put together here using Chinese parts. Then there are the companies who trade as USA/UK based companies yet sell re-badged Chinese scopes at huge markup.

EXPENSIVE doesn't always = good value for money.
Get real and wise up chaps.