Carry paperwork with NFA weapon?? - The Firearms Forum

dartswinger · 04-28-2011, 04:36 PM

I have a full auto (selectfire) M14 and I wish to know which if any form or copy thereof I need accompany the weapon when I wish to use a club firing range. I'll only fire semi (the club wouldn't like full!) but this is a machine gun as defined by law. I bought this in '89 and haven't taken it off my own property for the last 12 or so years. I'm sure the dealer told me this, but I don't remember and he is long since gone. I have a 'Certification' document with my picture and I have a 'transfer' document with the tax stamp.

BETH · 04-28-2011, 04:46 PM

some ranges don't allow it wait for someone else to answer who might know

Alpo · 04-28-2011, 04:58 PM

You need the transfer paperwork, with the tax stamp. Actually, you need a copy of it. Don't take the original anywhere. Put it away in the safe, so you don't lose it. Losing it would make you be in possession of an unregistered NFA item. Not good.

I don't know what the "certification document" is. The transfer paper is two-sided, and has your picture on one side and the tax stamp on the other.

My stuff gets carried in specific bags. I have a copy of the paperwork underneath the foam, in that gun's case. A guy I know, with many, has copies of all of his stuff in sheet protectors in a three-ring binder, and takes the notebook with him whenever he takes anything out.

Legally you are only required to show documentation to an ATF agent. But if a cop asks for it and you tell him you don't have to show it to him, he will arrest you. Just so you know.

dartswinger · 04-28-2011, 05:04 PM

To clarify here, I'm a long time member of my local club and do have permission to 'target shoot' in slow semi-auto only. My question related to legality.
ALPO I believe answered my question. He's correct the original doc. is two sided, what I have are separate copies of the front and rear, so I guess I need carry both, huh?

Jim K · 04-28-2011, 05:59 PM

There is no FEDERAL requirement that you carry the registration document (Form 4 or equivalent) with you when you take the gun off your property, only that it be made available to an ATF agent on request. BUT, having that paper might protect you from hassle by local police. I say "might" because some police are totally ignorant of firearms law and believe that all machineguns are illegal, or should be, and will arrest anyone with such a weapon.

I will go one step further than Alpo, in that I always kept my registration forms in my safe deposit box, and carried copies with me. I never had any problem, but then I never was stopped, either.

You don't need that paper to "prove" the gun is registered; the entry in the NFRTR does that. So even if you lose the paper, your gun is still registered, and you can get proof of the registration from BATFE at any time. Your approved transfer/registration paper is simply your copy.

As to your local range policy, that is set by the club or organization operating the range.

Jim

medalguy · 04-29-2011, 12:31 AM

To add to Jim K's post: BATF switched their filing system from drawers full of file folders to electronic a good many years ago. During that switch a few documents didn't make the jump, so if a LEO inquires about a specific firearm by serial number, it may return as no information on file, particularly if it was transferred many years ago or is an amnesty gun. That could present a problem if you are involved in a discussion with a LEO. They may have the paperwork, it just does not come up when they do an electronic search. It's always best to have your copy of the registration paperwork with you.

jim brady · 04-29-2011, 10:57 AM

Congradulations on having an M-14. I am enviuos of you, but I personally wouldn't have one with the paperwork hassel attached.

Good advice about carrying only a copy of your current paperwork, and keep the original in a safe place. No need to have a LEO develope an attitude with you over nothing.

If you plan to only shoot it in semi-auto mode, if I were you I would'nt sweat shooting it. Almost no one would not know it is not an M1A, unless of course you activated the full auto mode. I doubt if anyone on the range would even give you a second look. If your range has a problem with you shooting semi-auto, you need to find another range.

Jim K · 05-01-2011, 02:58 PM

IMHO, anyone firing an M14 in the FA mode at many ranges is, at best, irresponsible. There are some selective fire rifles (M16 is one) that can be fired FA with reasonable control, but the M14 isn't one of them, which is one of the reasons the Army issued them with the selector switch lock. At some ranges, firing over or past the backstop could endanger persons or property, and an M14 will climb due to recoil and stock shape.

This is a case where I would have the papers along. I know of a case where a man had to "assist the police" for several hours because he was spotted with an M1A with a dummy selector, so a true selective fire rifle could result in a similar situation if the owner has no papers.

Jim

dartswinger · 05-02-2011, 09:03 PM

A number of you are 'concerned' about my firing full auto, rest assured; I am a long time member of my club, trapshoter and all and I would not break their rules! Besides, I have occassional access to a junkyard way out in the sticks where I can 'let her rip'. My question on papers was just in the unlikely case a Statey would pull me over for some unknown infraction and happen to see a rifle case and be curious. Now as to the last replyer who said the M14 is uncontrollable, that depends on the shooter! I had 4 years in the Army, 15 months in Vietnam; I am 6'6" and back then weighed 200lbs. and I was one of the very few who could really control that beast. I can still empty a full 20 rd. mag. into a VW door at 50 yds.--standing!! I almost cried when they replaced that fine war machine with the dinky M16 Just 'cause most weaklings couldn't handle the big boy!! By the way, I empty that mag. in ONE continuous burst.

jim brady · 05-02-2011, 09:45 PM

Dartswinger, you have me curious. I've read plenty that the M-14 is 'uncontrollable on full auto'. I was also Army and went thru basic with it. We were taught to shoot it on full auto from the hip and holding the front of the rifle with our left hand reversed and cupped ON TOP of the hand guard to control muzzel lift on firing. I was only 5'9" and wieghed a whopping 125 pounds and still managed it. Is that how you were trained?

I was issued the M-16 in Country and hated it. Sure missed the reliable M-14.

Alpo · 05-02-2011, 09:46 PM

That's impressive. I've fired an M14. 6 rounds. Loaded one round, hit the center of the 100-yard target (nice to know the sights were on). Loaded two rounds, hit the center and the top of the 100-yard target. Loaded three rounds. Hit the center and the top of the 100-yard target and put the 3rd one over the berm. Decided that if I wanted to shoot 308 full auto I'd stick with belt-feds on a bipod, and if I wanted to shoot full auto off-hand I'd stick to sub guns.

dartswinger · 05-02-2011, 10:22 PM

To Jim Brady: When I went thru basic we all had the 'lock' on semi only. I (aquired) one with a selector and taught myself! Bend my left knee and lean hard foreward to the point where the recoil pretty much keeps me from falling forward, just wrapping my big hand around the forearm pretty much as usual. Tried an E2 stock for a while, didn't like it at all. Just the reg. wood stock sometimes with the bipod. With the bipod (except for mag. limitations) I could do pretty much what a decent M60 gunner could do. Now I'm in my 60's with a bad back and messed up foot, but I do remember the days of invincibility!!!!!!!!

InfiniteArms · 05-04-2011, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim K

There is no FEDERAL requirement that you carry the registration document (Form 4 or equivalent) with you when you take the gun off your property, only that it be made available to an ATF agent on request. BUT, having that paper might protect you from hassle by local police. I say "might" because some police are totally ignorant of firearms law and believe that all machineguns are illegal, or should be, and will arrest anyone with such a weapon.

Jim K is correct, there is no federal requirement that you carry the paperwork with you. You do not have to show the Form 4 to LE/range master/local "know it all" as it is actually considered a private tax document. Tho showing it usually gets you out of alot of hassle.

I routinely attend MG shoots here in NV with 20+ MGs/suppressors/SBR/SBS/etc and don't bother carrying any of my paperwork.

Example: I was the first to shoot MGs at a private range back east and sure enough shortly after i let loose the first time I had officers from two towns (the town line ran through the club) show up. They knew nothing about MGs or the Federal/State law. As soon as i showed them the paperwork with the ATF letterhead and signature they could have cared less.

04-28-2011, 04:36 PM	#1
dartswinger V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: SE Pa. Posts: 147	Carry paperwork with NFA weapon?? I have a full auto (selectfire) M14 and I wish to know which if any form or copy thereof I need accompany the weapon when I wish to use a club firing range. I'll only fire semi (the club wouldn't like full!) but this is a machine gun as defined by law. I bought this in '89 and haven't taken it off my own property for the last 12 or so years. I'm sure the dealer told me this, but I don't remember and he is long since gone. I have a 'Certification' document with my picture and I have a 'transfer' document with the tax stamp. -->

04-28-2011, 04:46 PM	#2
BETH Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: naugatuck,Ct. Contributor Posts: 6,686	Re: Carry paperwork with NFA weapon?? some ranges don't allow it wait for someone else to answer who might know

04-28-2011, 04:58 PM	#3
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,771	Re: Carry paperwork with NFA weapon?? You need the transfer paperwork, with the tax stamp. Actually, you need a copy of it. Don't take the original anywhere. Put it away in the safe, so you don't lose it. Losing it would make you be in possession of an unregistered NFA item. Not good. I don't know what the "certification document" is. The transfer paper is two-sided, and has your picture on one side and the tax stamp on the other. My stuff gets carried in specific bags. I have a copy of the paperwork underneath the foam, in that gun's case. A guy I know, with many, has copies of all of his stuff in sheet protectors in a three-ring binder, and takes the notebook with him whenever he takes anything out. Legally you are only required to show documentation to an ATF agent. But if a cop asks for it and you tell him you don't have to show it to him, he will arrest you. Just so you know. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

04-28-2011, 05:04 PM	#4
dartswinger V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: SE Pa. Posts: 147	Re: Carry paperwork with NFA weapon?? To clarify here, I'm a long time member of my local club and do have permission to 'target shoot' in slow semi-auto only. My question related to legality. ALPO I believe answered my question. He's correct the original doc. is two sided, what I have are separate copies of the front and rear, so I guess I need carry both, huh?

04-28-2011, 05:59 PM	#5
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Carry paperwork with NFA weapon?? There is no FEDERAL requirement that you carry the registration document (Form 4 or equivalent) with you when you take the gun off your property, only that it be made available to an ATF agent on request. BUT, having that paper might protect you from hassle by local police. I say "might" because some police are totally ignorant of firearms law and believe that all machineguns are illegal, or should be, and will arrest anyone with such a weapon. I will go one step further than Alpo, in that I always kept my registration forms in my safe deposit box, and carried copies with me. I never had any problem, but then I never was stopped, either. You don't need that paper to "prove" the gun is registered; the entry in the NFRTR does that. So even if you lose the paper, your gun is still registered, and you can get proof of the registration from BATFE at any time. Your approved transfer/registration paper is simply your copy. As to your local range policy, that is set by the club or organization operating the range. Jim

04-29-2011, 12:31 AM	#6
medalguy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 585	Re: Carry paperwork with NFA weapon?? To add to Jim K's post: BATF switched their filing system from drawers full of file folders to electronic a good many years ago. During that switch a few documents didn't make the jump, so if a LEO inquires about a specific firearm by serial number, it may return as no information on file, particularly if it was transferred many years ago or is an amnesty gun. That could present a problem if you are involved in a discussion with a LEO. They may have the paperwork, it just does not come up when they do an electronic search. It's always best to have your copy of the registration paperwork with you.

04-29-2011, 10:57 AM	#7
jim brady Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 1,099	Re: Carry paperwork with NFA weapon?? Congradulations on having an M-14. I am enviuos of you, but I personally wouldn't have one with the paperwork hassel attached. Good advice about carrying only a copy of your current paperwork, and keep the original in a safe place. No need to have a LEO develope an attitude with you over nothing. If you plan to only shoot it in semi-auto mode, if I were you I would'nt sweat shooting it. Almost no one would not know it is not an M1A, unless of course you activated the full auto mode. I doubt if anyone on the range would even give you a second look. If your range has a problem with you shooting semi-auto, you need to find another range.

05-01-2011, 02:58 PM	#8
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Carry paperwork with NFA weapon?? IMHO, anyone firing an M14 in the FA mode at many ranges is, at best, irresponsible. There are some selective fire rifles (M16 is one) that can be fired FA with reasonable control, but the M14 isn't one of them, which is one of the reasons the Army issued them with the selector switch lock. At some ranges, firing over or past the backstop could endanger persons or property, and an M14 will climb due to recoil and stock shape. This is a case where I would have the papers along. I know of a case where a man had to "assist the police" for several hours because he was spotted with an M1A with a dummy selector, so a true selective fire rifle could result in a similar situation if the owner has no papers. Jim

05-02-2011, 09:03 PM	#9
dartswinger V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: SE Pa. Posts: 147	Re: Carry paperwork with NFA weapon?? A number of you are 'concerned' about my firing full auto, rest assured; I am a long time member of my club, trapshoter and all and I would not break their rules! Besides, I have occassional access to a junkyard way out in the sticks where I can 'let her rip'. My question on papers was just in the unlikely case a Statey would pull me over for some unknown infraction and happen to see a rifle case and be curious. Now as to the last replyer who said the M14 is uncontrollable, that depends on the shooter! I had 4 years in the Army, 15 months in Vietnam; I am 6'6" and back then weighed 200lbs. and I was one of the very few who could really control that beast. I can still empty a full 20 rd. mag. into a VW door at 50 yds.--standing!! I almost cried when they replaced that fine war machine with the dinky M16 Just 'cause most weaklings couldn't handle the big boy!! By the way, I empty that mag. in ONE continuous burst.

05-02-2011, 09:45 PM	#10
jim brady Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 1,099	Re: Carry paperwork with NFA weapon?? Dartswinger, you have me curious. I've read plenty that the M-14 is 'uncontrollable on full auto'. I was also Army and went thru basic with it. We were taught to shoot it on full auto from the hip and holding the front of the rifle with our left hand reversed and cupped ON TOP of the hand guard to control muzzel lift on firing. I was only 5'9" and wieghed a whopping 125 pounds and still managed it. Is that how you were trained? I was issued the M-16 in Country and hated it. Sure missed the reliable M-14.

05-02-2011, 09:46 PM	#11
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,771	Re: Carry paperwork with NFA weapon?? That's impressive. I've fired an M14. 6 rounds. Loaded one round, hit the center of the 100-yard target (nice to know the sights were on). Loaded two rounds, hit the center and the top of the 100-yard target. Loaded three rounds. Hit the center and the top of the 100-yard target and put the 3rd one over the berm. Decided that if I wanted to shoot 308 full auto I'd stick with belt-feds on a bipod, and if I wanted to shoot full auto off-hand I'd stick to sub guns. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

05-02-2011, 10:22 PM	#12
dartswinger V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: SE Pa. Posts: 147	Re: Carry paperwork with NFA weapon?? To Jim Brady: When I went thru basic we all had the 'lock' on semi only. I (aquired) one with a selector and taught myself! Bend my left knee and lean hard foreward to the point where the recoil pretty much keeps me from falling forward, just wrapping my big hand around the forearm pretty much as usual. Tried an E2 stock for a while, didn't like it at all. Just the reg. wood stock sometimes with the bipod. With the bipod (except for mag. limitations) I could do pretty much what a decent M60 gunner could do. Now I'm in my 60's with a bad back and messed up foot, but I do remember the days of invincibility!!!!!!!!