Timmer Koblenz Double SxS - The Firearms Forum

packet · 04-29-2004, 04:40 PM

I am seeking information about one of my shotguns. 16ga. SxS marked Timmer Koblenz on the rib. On the sides of the barrels marked Amtlich Rauchlos Erprobt which translates from German to Certified Smokeless Tested. Belgian proof marks on the water table, false sideplates, engraved with hunting dogs. Very high quality. I have searched the internet in vane.

Xracer · 04-30-2004, 07:05 AM

Have you tried here? http://www.shotgunworld.com/identify.html

The Belgians made some very high quality shotguns. The also made a lot of cheap hardware store junk.

Apparently you have one of the good ones, but I've never heard of that maker.

packet · 04-30-2004, 08:25 AM

Yes Xracer, I did find that site but no info on Timmer. I have fired off a couple inquiries to some other shotgun forums but no answers yet. Thanks for the link.

CountryGunsmith · 05-02-2004, 05:55 PM

Koblenz is a city, not a person.

So, we need to determine if this is a German shotgun that was sold and therefore proofed in Belgium (unlikely) or a Belgian shotgun that used German-made barrels (more probable). To do that, we would need all of the markings both on the underside of the barrels and on the watertable of the frame.

packet · 05-03-2004, 06:47 AM

Countrygunsmith, you are correct. There are Belgian proof marks on the barrels as well, however, they are marked Sheffield Steel Works under the forearm.

CountryGunsmith · 05-03-2004, 08:52 AM

Well, there you go. Here is the most likely explanation:

Judging from the markings, your shotgun is going to be pre-WW1, c.1890-1910. This appears to have been a Belgian 'Guild Gun.' Various gunmaking guilds, or collectives, in the Liege area produced wonderful (and not so wonderful) double shotguns on order for various retailers both on the Continent and in America. Most of those imported into the USA are the 'clunkers' that were sold by the millions through mail-order houses and hardware chains. The guns delivered to the European continent, however, were generally of much higher quality and ornamentation.

Most of the smaller guild makers did not produce their own barrel sets. Barrels were purchased from outside contractors then fitted to actions, other guildmembers made and fitted stocks, and so forth. Your barrel set is English, obviously, and fitted to the action produced there in Belgium. Quite possibly, the barrels were produced and purchased individually then joined and the lugs set by the Belgian maker.

I have not found any reference in my library (including several all-German catalogs) to a gunmaker named 'Timmer' in the Koblenz area. Most likely, that was the importer/retailer. There is a current gunmaker in Koblenz that may be able to shed some light on 'Timmer':

Waffen-Münzel
Friedrich-Ebert-Ring 48
56068 Koblenz
Tel. 0261-31846
Fax 0261-160396

Now, regarding value. Not too long ago, the American market was dead to 16ga Continental doubles but the 16ga is making a bit of a comeback in the past few years. You still have a problem with name recognition, though. We evaluate shotguns like yours using three factors:

Engraving - The finer the engraving, the more value. Heavy bas-relief engraving begins to look crude and is less appreciated than fine line cuts. Indexed screw heads, etc., all add to the overall appeal.

The 'Three F's' of Stockwork - Fit, Finish, and Figure. We'd expect decent figure in English or French walnut on this shotgun. Nice checkering in the pistol grip at 22-24 lpi brings more $$ than coarser cuts. A subdued oil-type finish. Impeccable fit to the receiver tangs and sideplates, and an inletted buttplate. The grain should run through from the stock to the forend. Any deviance from this really hurts the market value.

Configuration - 26" barrels with relatively open chokes brings more $$ than longer, tighter barrels. Check the chamber lengths on this one! Anything over 7 1/2 pounds in 16ga begins to feel a little clubby and knocks a few bucks off the price. How a double shoulders means the world to a prospective buyer.

So, all things considered, a nice Belgian Guild shotgun that scores well in the above three categories will bring AT LEAST $750 and quite possibly much more. The exact maker could possibly be identified by looking at the action type, engraving styles, etc., but if not its no big deal - doesnt add significant dollar value.

packet · 05-03-2004, 03:06 PM

A most excellent reply Countrygunsmith. Very informative. I thought I would keep this going a bit further for the benefit of the members. The gun is definately on the high end of the scale having 24 lpi stock checkering and excellent fit, fine engraving, including the screws. The stock is very nice walnut, but not spectacular. Unfortunately someone has added a pad in the past. The barrels are 30 in long with 2 3/4 chambers and choked full&full. Sling swivels are attached. The action is a standard boxlock with double lugs.

CountryGunsmith · 05-03-2004, 03:56 PM

OK, we will adjust our manufacture estimate to be between the World Wars.

Value, around $1000. With that, recognize that it would be an extremely hard sell for that money. Enjoy the gun!

packet · 05-03-2004, 04:26 PM

I have enjoyed it immensely. I took it on a dove shoot once and had a ball. I like taking the long shots. Those 30'' full choke barrels really reach out there. Thanks again for the excellent info.

04-29-2004, 04:40 PM	#1
packet V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 175	Timmer Koblenz Double SxS I am seeking information about one of my shotguns. 16ga. SxS marked Timmer Koblenz on the rib. On the sides of the barrels marked Amtlich Rauchlos Erprobt which translates from German to Certified Smokeless Tested. Belgian proof marks on the water table, false sideplates, engraved with hunting dogs. Very high quality. I have searched the internet in vane. -->

05-02-2004, 05:55 PM	#4
CountryGunsmith Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Deep Piney Woods of East Texas Posts: 5,116	Koblenz is a city, not a person. So, we need to determine if this is a German shotgun that was sold and therefore proofed in Belgium (unlikely) or a Belgian shotgun that used German-made barrels (more probable). To do that, we would need all of the markings both on the underside of the barrels and on the watertable of the frame. __________________ The autonomic nervous system provides for involuntary muscle function - the work of breathing, digestion, and so forth. On some folks, that's a pure waste of ingenuity.

05-03-2004, 08:52 AM	#6
CountryGunsmith Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Deep Piney Woods of East Texas Posts: 5,116	Well, there you go. Here is the most likely explanation: Judging from the markings, your shotgun is going to be pre-WW1, c.1890-1910. This appears to have been a Belgian 'Guild Gun.' Various gunmaking guilds, or collectives, in the Liege area produced wonderful (and not so wonderful) double shotguns on order for various retailers both on the Continent and in America. Most of those imported into the USA are the 'clunkers' that were sold by the millions through mail-order houses and hardware chains. The guns delivered to the European continent, however, were generally of much higher quality and ornamentation. Most of the smaller guild makers did not produce their own barrel sets. Barrels were purchased from outside contractors then fitted to actions, other guildmembers made and fitted stocks, and so forth. Your barrel set is English, obviously, and fitted to the action produced there in Belgium. Quite possibly, the barrels were produced and purchased individually then joined and the lugs set by the Belgian maker. I have not found any reference in my library (including several all-German catalogs) to a gunmaker named 'Timmer' in the Koblenz area. Most likely, that was the importer/retailer. There is a current gunmaker in Koblenz that may be able to shed some light on 'Timmer': Waffen-Münzel Friedrich-Ebert-Ring 48 56068 Koblenz Tel. 0261-31846 Fax 0261-160396 Now, regarding value. Not too long ago, the American market was dead to 16ga Continental doubles but the 16ga is making a bit of a comeback in the past few years. You still have a problem with name recognition, though. We evaluate shotguns like yours using three factors: Engraving - The finer the engraving, the more value. Heavy bas-relief engraving begins to look crude and is less appreciated than fine line cuts. Indexed screw heads, etc., all add to the overall appeal. The 'Three F's' of Stockwork - Fit, Finish, and Figure. We'd expect decent figure in English or French walnut on this shotgun. Nice checkering in the pistol grip at 22-24 lpi brings more $$ than coarser cuts. A subdued oil-type finish. Impeccable fit to the receiver tangs and sideplates, and an inletted buttplate. The grain should run through from the stock to the forend. Any deviance from this really hurts the market value. Configuration - 26" barrels with relatively open chokes brings more $$ than longer, tighter barrels. Check the chamber lengths on this one! Anything over 7 1/2 pounds in 16ga begins to feel a little clubby and knocks a few bucks off the price. How a double shoulders means the world to a prospective buyer. So, all things considered, a nice Belgian Guild shotgun that scores well in the above three categories will bring AT LEAST $750 and quite possibly much more. The exact maker could possibly be identified by looking at the action type, engraving styles, etc., but if not its no big deal - doesnt add significant dollar value. __________________ The autonomic nervous system provides for involuntary muscle function - the work of breathing, digestion, and so forth. On some folks, that's a pure waste of ingenuity.

05-03-2004, 03:56 PM	#8
CountryGunsmith Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Deep Piney Woods of East Texas Posts: 5,116	OK, we will adjust our manufacture estimate to be between the World Wars. Value, around $1000. With that, recognize that it would be an extremely hard sell for that money. Enjoy the gun! __________________ The autonomic nervous system provides for involuntary muscle function - the work of breathing, digestion, and so forth. On some folks, that's a pure waste of ingenuity.

04-30-2004, 07:05 AM	#2
Xracer TFF Admin Staff Mediator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet! Posts: 9,144	Have you tried here? http://www.shotgunworld.com/identify.html The Belgians made some very high quality shotguns. The also made a lot of cheap hardware store junk. Apparently you have one of the good ones, but I've never heard of that maker.

04-30-2004, 08:25 AM	#3
packet V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 175	Yes Xracer, I did find that site but no info on Timmer. I have fired off a couple inquiries to some other shotgun forums but no answers yet. Thanks for the link.

05-03-2004, 06:47 AM	#5
packet V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 175	Countrygunsmith, you are correct. There are Belgian proof marks on the barrels as well, however, they are marked Sheffield Steel Works under the forearm.

05-03-2004, 03:06 PM	#7
packet V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 175	A most excellent reply Countrygunsmith. Very informative. I thought I would keep this going a bit further for the benefit of the members. The gun is definately on the high end of the scale having 24 lpi stock checkering and excellent fit, fine engraving, including the screws. The stock is very nice walnut, but not spectacular. Unfortunately someone has added a pad in the past. The barrels are 30 in long with 2 3/4 chambers and choked full&full. Sling swivels are attached. The action is a standard boxlock with double lugs.

05-03-2004, 04:26 PM	#9
packet V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 175	I have enjoyed it immensely. I took it on a dove shoot once and had a ball. I like taking the long shots. Those 30'' full choke barrels really reach out there. Thanks again for the excellent info.