Nelson Lewis Pistol In Box - The Firearms Forum

Big6ft6 · 08-14-2011, 09:25 PM

Hi Everyone. I consider myself pretty good at internet research. Being an old car restorer I'm pretty proficient at finding the info I need. This pistol is the first thing that has me stumped. I'm also a HUGE fan of forums to find the people who really know things.

I found this gun at my grandpa's house in the closet. I took some pics. I asked him about and he said he really knew nothing other than it was a "turkey shoot" gun.

"N. Lewis, Troy, maker" is stamped in the barrel. I can find a small amount of info on a personal website about this gun maker, but I can't find anything more on the entire world-wide web regarding collectibility or value or ??? The box appears to be original and includes what I've learned is a "False Muzzle" to use a plunger to help load bullets into the barrel, an attachable but stock, a peep sight that screws into rear of the gun.

I'm afraid the front ram rod holder broke off and someone welded it to the top of the barrel as a make-shift front sight

I'm curious what this is worth. I know I'm not providing a lot of info and I don't expect an exact answer. I'm looking for a magnitude...like "hundreds" of dollars.. or "thousands of dollars" or "tens of thousands of dollars".

Here are some pics.

hrf · 08-14-2011, 11:12 PM

Flayderman's Guide shows a similar "buggy rifle" by Nelson Lewis but with a square butt and walnut detachable stock, and states calibers were .31 to .36 with 11 and 12 inch barrels. He lists value range with stock and false muzzle from $1750 for Good condition to $4500 for Fine condition.

Are you certain the front sight is not original? It looks identical to one on the example shown by Flayderman.

CHW2021 · 08-15-2011, 06:41 AM

For this one, get a professional.
This is a unique piece that would need to have a documented history and written appraisal from a pro, not the information that you will get here. The value for this gun (as shown above) is what I would consider to be high enough to pay for a professional opinion. Maybe check with the NRA museum?

Big6ft6 · 08-15-2011, 07:02 AM

Thanks Guys that helps alot. HRF I'm glad you found a name for this...a "Buggy Rifle"? That is really fun to learn that there is a record of this type of gun somewhere and it sounds like even a picture?

I was just guessing about the front sight, but if the picture in your book shows a similar front sight I guess it could be original. I simply couldn't imagine how that front sight could be used with the included peep sight?

The little piece I found on Nelson Lewis talked about his extreme particularness for accuracy and a tube for a front sight doesn't seem it would be that accurate. But again I know nothing about this gun so I'm sure there is an explanation.

I'll have to look into this Flaydermans guidebook and maybe get it for my grandpa.

hrf · 08-15-2011, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big6ft6

Thanks Guys that helps alot. HRF I'm glad you found a name for this...a "Buggy Rifle"? That is really fun to learn that there is a record of this type of gun somewhere and it sounds like even a picture?

aka "Pocket Rifle"

Depending upon where you are located, I'd suggest appraisel by Rock Island Auctions in Illinois or Greg Martin in California.

Is there a ramrod or other accessories in the narrow internal box with lid?

Big6ft6 · 08-15-2011, 08:25 AM

HRF,

That was going to be my next question, where are good appraisers for this type of thing? I'm in Wisconsin so the Illionois person sounds like the best bet. Maybe I could drive my grandpa down there and make it a road trip.

Unfortunately I could not find a ramrod. Inside the little narrow box is a bunch of holes (like an egg carton) that appear to have held bullets??? Each little hole seems to be colored from lead which is why I made this guess that it held bullets.

rhmc24 · 08-15-2011, 09:25 AM

It is a rig set up for accuracy. You don't see many pistols with a false muzzle which was common on bench rest rifles. The idea was to 'tenderly' load a patched ball and spare the muzzle of the gun from the trauma of forcing it in. Value, hundreds. If you can find a collector specializing in target sets it might go into 4 figures.

CHW2021 · 08-15-2011, 09:30 AM

Yup, that is where bullets were held. Remember, they were cast by the shooter and not bought at the store. Do not be too concerned about the ramrod, you can't do anything about it anyway.
As far as the front sight, be advised that the hooded front sight is still in use as a target style sight; there are many modern equivalents to the "sighting system" that is on your pistol. This was about the top of the line target/sporting set up in it's day.

Jim K · 08-15-2011, 09:58 AM

The tube isn't the front sight; apparently the front sight is missing. The tube served to cover the front sight and keep off reflections so the sight was silhouetted. This gave a better and more consistent sight picture under changing light conditions and helped in accurate shooting. (The Russians used a similar setup in some of their rifles in modern times.)

Jim

Big6ft6 · 08-15-2011, 11:37 AM

Jim K,

I think your right, the front sight pin (or whatever was inside the tube) is likely missing as I do'nt recall seeing anything inside of the tube. Although I was so overwhelmed by the entire gun I may have missed it. Is it possible that the front site blade/pin is very small? The rear sight is very small/low profile to the barrel. I have seen modern guns with hooded front site, but I'm used to seeing a giant ramp with a blade inside the hood and I noticed nothing inside this hood/tube.

Thanks again for all the information, and insight. I really enjoy the history of this stuff and will be excited to share it with my grandpa. All he had heard about this gun was that it was a "Turkey Shoot" gun. Which from what I've been able to figure out was a target shooting contest during thanksgiving, and whoever won recieved a turkey. That may have been what it was last used for, but I can't imagine that was what it was manufactured for.

The idea of a "Buggy Rifle" makes more sense, as you'd want it to collapse down to fit under the buggy seat or something....but if you're shooting from a buggy why such attention to accuracy? Wouldn' you be shooting off-hand and maybe bouncing around? I would think features like fine sights/peep site would be a hinderance rather than an advantage if you were trying to defend your buggy.

But if was made just to shoot from a bench for accurate target shoting..why the removable butt stock? Why not just make it a full-blown rifle?

hrf · 08-15-2011, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big6ft6

Jim K,

The idea of a "Buggy Rifle" makes more sense, as you'd want it to collapse down to fit under the buggy seat or something....but if you're shooting from a buggy why such attention to accuracy? Wouldn' you be shooting off-hand and maybe bouncing around? I would think features like fine sights/peep site would be a hinderance rather than an advantage if you were trying to defend your buggy.

But if was made just to shoot from a bench for accurate target shoting..why the removable butt stock? Why not just make it a full-blown rifle?

They were made for the convenience of transporting them on a buggy, train, etc. and I doubt they were often fired from same. Full size target rifles with same attributes were quite heavy and burdensome.

Buffalochip · 08-15-2011, 12:13 PM

Check out Americanlongrifles.org and search for chunk rifles, over the log rifles, picket rifles, and sugarloaf rifles--you will see that many similarities. I suspect this gun filled more than one purpose--not uncommon for the times.This gun was definately made for competition target shooting--probably in the 1870s or so. There is a screw in tang peep sight laying in the bottom of the box that is only good for target shooting. AND it probably also served as a "buggy gun," which is why it has the notched rear sight. Are you sure it ever had a front thimble to hold the ramrod? It looks like the blocks that hold the barrel would prevent you from storing it with the ramrod in place. It probably had a dedicated bullet mould at one time.

With all the accroutements and box, it should bring a premium price. Whatever you do-DON'T clean it other than to wipe it down.

Big6ft6 · 08-15-2011, 02:01 PM

BuffaloC,

No I am not sure it ever had a front ramrod thimble. That was just a guess after I was home looking at the pictures, and looking at pictures of other muzzle-loading guns and thinking there should be one...then noticing the front sight and thinking "OH MY *** someone welded it on the wrong side of the barrel!!". It also seemed in one my pictures I could almost see what looks like sloppy welding where the sight hood meets the barrel.

But I'm no longer near the gun to look at it more. I did run into this amazing thread on compeition muzzle loaders post civil-war era...answers some questions..pretty cool information.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthr...pics/5402562/1

08-14-2011, 09:25 PM	#1
Big6ft6 Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 5	Nelson Lewis Pistol In Box Hi Everyone. I consider myself pretty good at internet research. Being an old car restorer I'm pretty proficient at finding the info I need. This pistol is the first thing that has me stumped. I'm also a HUGE fan of forums to find the people who really know things. I found this gun at my grandpa's house in the closet. I took some pics. I asked him about and he said he really knew nothing other than it was a "turkey shoot" gun. "N. Lewis, Troy, maker" is stamped in the barrel. I can find a small amount of info on a personal website about this gun maker, but I can't find anything more on the entire world-wide web regarding collectibility or value or ??? The box appears to be original and includes what I've learned is a "False Muzzle" to use a plunger to help load bullets into the barrel, an attachable but stock, a peep sight that screws into rear of the gun. I'm afraid the front ram rod holder broke off and someone welded it to the top of the barrel as a make-shift front sight I'm curious what this is worth. I know I'm not providing a lot of info and I don't expect an exact answer. I'm looking for a magnitude...like "hundreds" of dollars.. or "thousands of dollars" or "tens of thousands of dollars". Here are some pics. --> Last edited by Big6ft6; 08-14-2011 at 09:30 PM..

08-14-2011, 11:12 PM	#2
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,283	Re: Nelson Lewis Pistol In Box Flayderman's Guide shows a similar "buggy rifle" by Nelson Lewis but with a square butt and walnut detachable stock, and states calibers were .31 to .36 with 11 and 12 inch barrels. He lists value range with stock and false muzzle from $1750 for Good condition to $4500 for Fine condition. Are you certain the front sight is not original? It looks identical to one on the example shown by Flayderman. Last edited by hrf; 08-14-2011 at 11:17 PM..

08-15-2011, 06:41 AM	#3
CHW2021 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Louisiana Posts: 467	Re: Nelson Lewis Pistol In Box For this one, get a professional. This is a unique piece that would need to have a documented history and written appraisal from a pro, not the information that you will get here. The value for this gun (as shown above) is what I would consider to be high enough to pay for a professional opinion. Maybe check with the NRA museum? Last edited by CHW2021; 08-15-2011 at 06:45 AM..

08-15-2011, 07:02 AM	#4
Big6ft6 Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 5	Re: Nelson Lewis Pistol In Box Thanks Guys that helps alot. HRF I'm glad you found a name for this...a "Buggy Rifle"? That is really fun to learn that there is a record of this type of gun somewhere and it sounds like even a picture? I was just guessing about the front sight, but if the picture in your book shows a similar front sight I guess it could be original. I simply couldn't imagine how that front sight could be used with the included peep sight? The little piece I found on Nelson Lewis talked about his extreme particularness for accuracy and a tube for a front sight doesn't seem it would be that accurate. But again I know nothing about this gun so I'm sure there is an explanation. I'll have to look into this Flaydermans guidebook and maybe get it for my grandpa.

08-15-2011, 08:25 AM	#6
Big6ft6 Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 5	Re: Nelson Lewis Pistol In Box HRF, That was going to be my next question, where are good appraisers for this type of thing? I'm in Wisconsin so the Illionois person sounds like the best bet. Maybe I could drive my grandpa down there and make it a road trip. Unfortunately I could not find a ramrod. Inside the little narrow box is a bunch of holes (like an egg carton) that appear to have held bullets??? Each little hole seems to be colored from lead which is why I made this guess that it held bullets.

08-15-2011, 09:25 AM	#7
rhmc24 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ardmore, OK Posts: 527	Re: Nelson Lewis Pistol In Box It is a rig set up for accuracy. You don't see many pistols with a false muzzle which was common on bench rest rifles. The idea was to 'tenderly' load a patched ball and spare the muzzle of the gun from the trauma of forcing it in. Value, hundreds. If you can find a collector specializing in target sets it might go into 4 figures.

08-15-2011, 09:30 AM	#8
CHW2021 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Louisiana Posts: 467	Re: Nelson Lewis Pistol In Box Yup, that is where bullets were held. Remember, they were cast by the shooter and not bought at the store. Do not be too concerned about the ramrod, you can't do anything about it anyway. As far as the front sight, be advised that the hooded front sight is still in use as a target style sight; there are many modern equivalents to the "sighting system" that is on your pistol. This was about the top of the line target/sporting set up in it's day.

08-15-2011, 09:58 AM	#9
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Nelson Lewis Pistol In Box The tube isn't the front sight; apparently the front sight is missing. The tube served to cover the front sight and keep off reflections so the sight was silhouetted. This gave a better and more consistent sight picture under changing light conditions and helped in accurate shooting. (The Russians used a similar setup in some of their rifles in modern times.) Jim

08-15-2011, 11:37 AM	#10
Big6ft6 Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 5	Re: Nelson Lewis Pistol In Box Jim K, I think your right, the front sight pin (or whatever was inside the tube) is likely missing as I do'nt recall seeing anything inside of the tube. Although I was so overwhelmed by the entire gun I may have missed it. Is it possible that the front site blade/pin is very small? The rear sight is very small/low profile to the barrel. I have seen modern guns with hooded front site, but I'm used to seeing a giant ramp with a blade inside the hood and I noticed nothing inside this hood/tube. Thanks again for all the information, and insight. I really enjoy the history of this stuff and will be excited to share it with my grandpa. All he had heard about this gun was that it was a "Turkey Shoot" gun. Which from what I've been able to figure out was a target shooting contest during thanksgiving, and whoever won recieved a turkey. That may have been what it was last used for, but I can't imagine that was what it was manufactured for. The idea of a "Buggy Rifle" makes more sense, as you'd want it to collapse down to fit under the buggy seat or something....but if you're shooting from a buggy why such attention to accuracy? Wouldn' you be shooting off-hand and maybe bouncing around? I would think features like fine sights/peep site would be a hinderance rather than an advantage if you were trying to defend your buggy. But if was made just to shoot from a bench for accurate target shoting..why the removable butt stock? Why not just make it a full-blown rifle? Last edited by Big6ft6; 08-15-2011 at 11:44 AM..

08-15-2011, 12:13 PM	#12
Buffalochip Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 754	Re: Nelson Lewis Pistol In Box Check out Americanlongrifles.org and search for chunk rifles, over the log rifles, picket rifles, and sugarloaf rifles--you will see that many similarities. I suspect this gun filled more than one purpose--not uncommon for the times.This gun was definately made for competition target shooting--probably in the 1870s or so. There is a screw in tang peep sight laying in the bottom of the box that is only good for target shooting. AND it probably also served as a "buggy gun," which is why it has the notched rear sight. Are you sure it ever had a front thimble to hold the ramrod? It looks like the blocks that hold the barrel would prevent you from storing it with the ramrod in place. It probably had a dedicated bullet mould at one time. With all the accroutements and box, it should bring a premium price. Whatever you do-DON'T clean it other than to wipe it down.

08-15-2011, 02:01 PM	#13
Big6ft6 Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 5	Re: Nelson Lewis Pistol In Box BuffaloC, No I am not sure it ever had a front ramrod thimble. That was just a guess after I was home looking at the pictures, and looking at pictures of other muzzle-loading guns and thinking there should be one...then noticing the front sight and thinking "OH MY *** someone welded it on the wrong side of the barrel!!". It also seemed in one my pictures I could almost see what looks like sloppy welding where the sight hood meets the barrel. But I'm no longer near the gun to look at it more. I did run into this amazing thread on compeition muzzle loaders post civil-war era...answers some questions..pretty cool information. http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthr...pics/5402562/1