Almost bought my first .22 - The Firearms Forum

clichedusername · 10-08-2011, 06:41 PM

After searching this forum and soliciting the advice of its members, and a lot of research, I placed a special order with a local gun shop for a Savage Mark II BTVLSS. I felt like kid waiting for Christmas to arrive. Everyday I would call the store and see it the gun had been shipped. Today I was told that the gun had arrived. All I needed to do was come and pick it up.
Now one of the reasons I chose Savage was for the out of the box accuracy, craftsmanship, and quality. When the gentleman handling the sale lifted the rifle out of the box, I was thrilled. The gun was beautiful. It was all that I could do not to snatch it from his hands...
Then I noticed the frown. I looked in the direction of his gaze, and for all intents and purposes, the trigger housing had fallen off. Apparently there are two screws that seat the bottom metal of the trigger housing to the gun. One sits in wood, and that screw had broken off. Because of that the second screw that attaches to the (I believe he told me the action) was loose. The bolt was moving all over the place and the barrel was wiggling in a distressing fashion. The gentleman took the gun into the back to see if there was anything that could be done. Upon returning he informed me that he was uncomfortable selling this rifle. I replied that I was most uncomfortable purchasing it.
How could I have gotten shipped the one factory reject that may have ever left the Savage facility? Ohh well, hopefully he will receive the replacement rifle buy next Thursday... I am not a patient individual. Maybe I should call the shipping company and see what time they usually deliver packages. That way I can be in the store when it arrives. I guess I should go do some work and stop thinking about it.

Future bulletins as events warrant.

BETH · 10-08-2011, 06:46 PM

welcome to the forum, all good things come to those that wait

todd51 · 10-08-2011, 06:52 PM

I am sure your experience with that delivery is unusual and in fact I would say it is quite rare. Don't let it dampen your enjoyment of you Savage when you finally get it.

And welcome to TTF

JLA · 10-08-2011, 08:12 PM

Savage usually will make good with you. Theyll probably toss in a couple boxes of free ammo coupons. That kind of stuff happens on occasion, its not just savage. I have seen Brownings and Rugers shipped when they werent supposed to be too. Just understand that their plants are ran by people too, and people can make mistakes.

Savage is a good company to deal with, theyll take care of it.

Brisk44 · 10-08-2011, 08:27 PM

Welcome to the forum, sorry to hear about your rifle. You can be sure the next one they ship won't leave the factory til it's been gone over with a fine tooth comb.

Chinook · 10-08-2011, 08:52 PM

Welcome aboard! Like everyone's already said. This kinda stuff happens. Not often, but a lot of us have been a round the block. I have dealt with Savage when they had my old 111 FNS in for repair after I accidentally dropped the rifle onto the end of the buttstock, trying to hand it to someone from on top of our camper. They even covererd the shipping cost, since they knew I was a full-time student. Savage is a great group of folks, motivated to bring us a quality product, at a competitive price. Enjoy the Mark II, and dont forget to give us the run-down after you take it to the range for the first time!

American Leader · 10-08-2011, 09:54 PM

Welcome aboard cliche from the GREAT STATE OF IOWA! I'm sure Savage will make it right!

clichedusername · 10-09-2011, 02:59 AM

Thank y'all for your the kind words of encouragement. This is obviously an anomaly, but still annoying for an impatient and excited individual.
Unfortunately I did not order from Savage but from the dealer, so no free ammo for me.
This rifle is going to be my learning platform. When the rifle does arrive, and I give y'all the run-down, do not expect great things. It is quite unlikely that I will be posting pictures of ten shot quarter inch targets taken at one hundred yards like some of the marksmen on this forum.
I do hope to get decent with a lot of practice though. Thank goodness .22 ammo is still relatively inexpensive.

Regular Joe · 10-09-2011, 04:04 AM

Speaking of ammo.... A really great way to keep yourself stoked up in anticipation of getting a functional rifle is to get a head start on some of the ammo to try with it. Bass Pro has the Rem./Eley target ammo I mentioned before, as well as the subsonic Win stuff. Sadly, they don't stock anything from CCI. The Walmart at Patrick and Russel have plenty of CCI.
Also pick out a nice zippered case for it, and a small gunsmithing tool kit and boresnake. Don't EVER run a rod down that bore! Get some Hoppes #9 solvent, and Remoil for the outer finish.
Keep your excitement up! When you get down to trying some different ammo and seeing that Yes, even YOU can shoot those one hole groups at 50 yards, you'll know you done good.

clichedusername · 10-09-2011, 09:09 AM

Thanks for the ammo tip, Mr. Joe. I probably will head out today and see what I can find. I am truly curious if I will be able to tell a difference in ammo or if the gun likes one type more then another.
Several years ago I was helping my granddad clean a pistol. He used a rod with swabs on the end to clean the barrel. Please forgive my ignorance, but why should I not use a rod in my barrel? Could my granddad have possible been damaging his pistol? Or should this rifle be treated differently?
Thank you in advance for letting me pick your brain.

bamajoey · 10-09-2011, 10:53 AM

I have several 22's that are tack drivers and don't even own a cleaning rod. All I ever use is a patch worm.
While you are collecting ammo to try, get a box or two of Wolf Match Target or SK std +. You will have better luck with subsonic ammo if you are going for accuracy.
By the way, if you find one of those 22 rifles that produce ten shot, quarter inch groups at 100yds, better buy two of them, they're rare.

Regular Joe · 10-10-2011, 04:02 AM

I used cleaning rods for decades with no apparent ill effect, but the potential is always there. These days, I use a kind of patchworm of my own making. It's just a piece of masons' line with a loop at one end. I put the patch thru the loop, then run the loose end thru the bore. I put the loose end back thru the loop as well, so I can just keep pulling it thru for multiple passes, changing the patch and what ever it gets wet with, or dry patches to end with.
With a .22 it will almost never have lead deposits. When you're comparing ammo, it can be good to start with a clean bore, then fire 5 or 10 rounds to "season the bore" with the lube of the bullet variety you mean to check. Then fire your accuracy rounds. When you're done with one ammo type, clean the bore with 2 passes of swabs soaked in Hoppes', then 2 dry patches, and repeat the seasoning with the next ammo type.
It is a good idea to keep a nice brass cleaning rod on hand, in case a bullet ever gets lodged in your bore. There's really no other way to get it back out.
In testing ammo, do try some of the Federal Lightening from walmart. It's cheap, and popular as a fairly accurate load. The big trick in finding your preferred ammo is to compromise between accuracy and price. With a bit of testing, you can probably find a plinking round for around 4 cents each that is accurate enough to keep the fun in the game.
BTW- While you're out looking at things, don't forget to get a pair or 2 (they're cheap) of shooting glasses, and some kind of ear protection. I'm already deaf in higher frequencies, so I usually forego the ears, but I get stuff hitting my glasses all the time.

clichedusername · 10-15-2011, 01:04 AM

The newest update is as follows:
I drove to the gun store yesterday. The Mark II was expected to have arrived by then. Indeed the rifle was in the store. Its employees brought it out for my inspection. Jokingly, I asked them to insure that this guns' trigger housing was solidly seated. I was shocked when again the trigger housing popped off. Confused I left again without a rifle.
Today the store called to say that the supplier of my rifle had never been contacted, and the replacement gun order had just been placed this morning. The gun that I was almost handed was the same rifle from last week. Now it will be an additional one or two weeks for the order can be processed, shipped and arrive.
At this point the store that I am dealing with is making me agitated. Is there a way I can buy the gun through Savage, and have it shipped to a different FFL? The customer service that Savage provides would undoubtedly be more satisfying and I do not really want to deal with a middleman anymore.
Still excited about a long future of shooting a beautiful rifle... and hoping that dream of a happy future will occur in the not to distant future.

Brisk44 · 10-15-2011, 01:23 AM

If they have actually called in the replacement order this time then probably not if they haven't then cancel the order get your money back and order ffrom Savage and find a different FFL to receive it.If you do have to go with the original FFL I'd complain and maybe he'll knock some off the price or give you some ammo.
Sorry you're having so much trouble.

Regular Joe · 10-15-2011, 03:58 AM

It doesn't surprise me a bit that ineptitude is the feeling you get at Bass Pro. For a KNOWN good bunch of guys who are close to you, I would recommend Lock 'n' Load, located at about Eastern and Serene.
http://www.locknloadgunstore.com/
There ya' go! They're the place I told you about where black rifles are pretty common. Good people are common there too, and they probably know just who to call.

clichedusername · 10-16-2011, 03:44 AM

I did not think of using them as my FFL. After hearing you discuss how they can help me find the "evil black rifle" of my dreams, I figured that they could assist when I developed a more refined taste in firearms.
Anyway I called them this morning and they will check to see if their suppliers can get me a Mark II promptly.
Is it possible to buy directly from Savage? I just assumed that they would only sell to dealers.

Regular Joe · 10-16-2011, 04:15 AM

Here's your rifle on the Savage website. Look near the bottom, and see that they provide links to GunsAmerica and some others, but do not offer sales directly. Just as well, in that Mfg. sites that do offer sales are normally asking the full MSRP, and the market is usually a good amount less. The difference should be enough to cover the shipping and FFL transfer costs.
If you have any problem at all with L'n'L, call Spurlocks', in Old Henderson, at 564-5668. At Spurlocks, you're just as likely to deal with the owner as with anyone, and they are definitely good ol' boys there.

Regular Joe · 10-16-2011, 05:00 AM

I looked at the entire Savage inventory at Cheaper than Dirt (the worlds' largest inventory of guns, period), and they don't even list the BTVSS. You should try L'n'L and Spurlocks', and if they find what I found, either decide to settle on Bass Blo, or pick another rifle. Without the thumbhole stock, it makes no difference if the gun is left or right handed. I'm left handed, but all of my guns are either right handed or ambi, by design.
If you can't find the BTVSS anywhere else, and want to be done with "those clowns", I suggest that you take a long hard look at CZ rifles.
This one:
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-452-american/
is almost certainly a better rifle than the Savage. Read the comments at the lower part of the page. This one is far more likely to be available.
I can't find that one either! It was the 452 left handed. This one would be a great place to start, and would probably stay with you forever:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/31193-55.html
The only diff between this and a left hand version is that you operate the bolt with the right hand. For $322, it's a great rifle.
Everything there is to know about rimfire guns of any kind is here:
http://www.rfc.com/forums/index.php

Big Shrek · 10-16-2011, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regular Joe

I looked at the entire Savage inventory at Cheaper than Dirt (the worlds' largest inventory of guns, period), and they don't even list the BTVSS. You should try L'n'L and Spurlocks', and if they find what I found, either decide to settle on Bass Blo, or pick another rifle. Without the thumbhole stock, it makes no difference if the gun is left or right handed. I'm left handed, but all of my guns are either right handed or ambi, by design.
If you can't find the BTVSS anywhere else, and want to be done with "those clowns", I suggest that you take a long hard look at CZ rifles.
This one:
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-452-american/
is almost certainly a better rifle than the Savage. Read the comments at the lower part of the page. This one is far more likely to be available.
I can't find that one either! It was the 452 left handed. This one would be a great place to start, and would probably stay with you forever:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/31193-55.html
The only diff between this and a left hand version is that you operate the bolt with the right hand. For $322, it's a great rifle.
Everything there is to know about rimfire guns of any kind is here:
http://www.rfc.com/forums/index.php

If you've been to RFC, you need to hit the Marlin Bolt-action section.
Eyeball some of the tight groups those boys shoot with El Cheapo Marlins

After a trigger job, them thangs will shoot with CZ's at 1/4 the cost & Made in the USA!

bamajoey · 10-16-2011, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Shrek

If you've been to RFC, you need to hit the Marlin Bolt-action section.
Eyeball some of the tight groups those boys shoot with El Cheapo Marlins

After a trigger job, them thangs will shoot with CZ's at 1/4 the cost & Made in the USA!

What kind of trigger job, what does it cost, and where can a person get it done?

10-08-2011, 06:41 PM	#1
clichedusername Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 9	Almost bought my first .22 After searching this forum and soliciting the advice of its members, and a lot of research, I placed a special order with a local gun shop for a Savage Mark II BTVLSS. I felt like kid waiting for Christmas to arrive. Everyday I would call the store and see it the gun had been shipped. Today I was told that the gun had arrived. All I needed to do was come and pick it up. Now one of the reasons I chose Savage was for the out of the box accuracy, craftsmanship, and quality. When the gentleman handling the sale lifted the rifle out of the box, I was thrilled. The gun was beautiful. It was all that I could do not to snatch it from his hands... Then I noticed the frown. I looked in the direction of his gaze, and for all intents and purposes, the trigger housing had fallen off. Apparently there are two screws that seat the bottom metal of the trigger housing to the gun. One sits in wood, and that screw had broken off. Because of that the second screw that attaches to the (I believe he told me the action) was loose. The bolt was moving all over the place and the barrel was wiggling in a distressing fashion. The gentleman took the gun into the back to see if there was anything that could be done. Upon returning he informed me that he was uncomfortable selling this rifle. I replied that I was most uncomfortable purchasing it. How could I have gotten shipped the one factory reject that may have ever left the Savage facility? Ohh well, hopefully he will receive the replacement rifle buy next Thursday... I am not a patient individual. Maybe I should call the shipping company and see what time they usually deliver packages. That way I can be in the store when it arrives. I guess I should go do some work and stop thinking about it. Future bulletins as events warrant. -->

10-08-2011, 06:46 PM	#2
BETH Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: naugatuck,Ct. Contributor Posts: 6,668	Re: Almost bought my first .22 welcome to the forum, all good things come to those that wait

10-08-2011, 06:52 PM	#3
todd51 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Central, Ohio Contributor Posts: 2,572	Re: Almost bought my first .22 I am sure your experience with that delivery is unusual and in fact I would say it is quite rare. Don't let it dampen your enjoyment of you Savage when you finally get it. And welcome to TTF __________________ Retired Praefectus Vigilum NRA Endowment Member

10-08-2011, 08:12 PM	#4
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,315	Re: Almost bought my first .22 Savage usually will make good with you. Theyll probably toss in a couple boxes of free ammo coupons. That kind of stuff happens on occasion, its not just savage. I have seen Brownings and Rugers shipped when they werent supposed to be too. Just understand that their plants are ran by people too, and people can make mistakes. Savage is a good company to deal with, theyll take care of it. __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

10-08-2011, 08:27 PM	#5
Brisk44 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Iowa Contributor Posts: 1,747	Re: Almost bought my first .22 Welcome to the forum, sorry to hear about your rifle. You can be sure the next one they ship won't leave the factory til it's been gone over with a fine tooth comb.

10-08-2011, 08:52 PM	#6
Chinook V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: 17 pulls, into the propwash... Contributor Posts: 423	Re: Almost bought my first .22 Welcome aboard! Like everyone's already said. This kinda stuff happens. Not often, but a lot of us have been a round the block. I have dealt with Savage when they had my old 111 FNS in for repair after I accidentally dropped the rifle onto the end of the buttstock, trying to hand it to someone from on top of our camper. They even covererd the shipping cost, since they knew I was a full-time student. Savage is a great group of folks, motivated to bring us a quality product, at a competitive price. Enjoy the Mark II, and dont forget to give us the run-down after you take it to the range for the first time!

10-08-2011, 09:54 PM	#7
American Leader Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Iowa Contributor Posts: 1,630	Re: Almost bought my first .22 Welcome aboard cliche from the GREAT STATE OF IOWA! I'm sure Savage will make it right!

10-09-2011, 02:59 AM	#8
clichedusername Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 9	Re: Almost bought my first .22 Thank y'all for your the kind words of encouragement. This is obviously an anomaly, but still annoying for an impatient and excited individual. Unfortunately I did not order from Savage but from the dealer, so no free ammo for me. This rifle is going to be my learning platform. When the rifle does arrive, and I give y'all the run-down, do not expect great things. It is quite unlikely that I will be posting pictures of ten shot quarter inch targets taken at one hundred yards like some of the marksmen on this forum. I do hope to get decent with a lot of practice though. Thank goodness .22 ammo is still relatively inexpensive.

10-09-2011, 04:04 AM	#9
Regular Joe V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 269	Re: Almost bought my first .22 Speaking of ammo.... A really great way to keep yourself stoked up in anticipation of getting a functional rifle is to get a head start on some of the ammo to try with it. Bass Pro has the Rem./Eley target ammo I mentioned before, as well as the subsonic Win stuff. Sadly, they don't stock anything from CCI. The Walmart at Patrick and Russel have plenty of CCI. Also pick out a nice zippered case for it, and a small gunsmithing tool kit and boresnake. Don't EVER run a rod down that bore! Get some Hoppes #9 solvent, and Remoil for the outer finish. Keep your excitement up! When you get down to trying some different ammo and seeing that Yes, even YOU can shoot those one hole groups at 50 yards, you'll know you done good. __________________ Around here, we don't say "Oh shucks", or "oh man". We say Oh BAMA!!

10-09-2011, 09:09 AM	#10
clichedusername Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 9	Re: Almost bought my first .22 Thanks for the ammo tip, Mr. Joe. I probably will head out today and see what I can find. I am truly curious if I will be able to tell a difference in ammo or if the gun likes one type more then another. Several years ago I was helping my granddad clean a pistol. He used a rod with swabs on the end to clean the barrel. Please forgive my ignorance, but why should I not use a rod in my barrel? Could my granddad have possible been damaging his pistol? Or should this rifle be treated differently? Thank you in advance for letting me pick your brain.

10-09-2011, 10:53 AM	#11
bamajoey Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Pensacola Contributor Posts: 1,257	Re: Almost bought my first .22 I have several 22's that are tack drivers and don't even own a cleaning rod. All I ever use is a patch worm. While you are collecting ammo to try, get a box or two of Wolf Match Target or SK std +. You will have better luck with subsonic ammo if you are going for accuracy. By the way, if you find one of those 22 rifles that produce ten shot, quarter inch groups at 100yds, better buy two of them, they're rare. Last edited by bamajoey; 10-09-2011 at 10:55 AM..

10-10-2011, 04:02 AM	#12
Regular Joe V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 269	Re: Almost bought my first .22 I used cleaning rods for decades with no apparent ill effect, but the potential is always there. These days, I use a kind of patchworm of my own making. It's just a piece of masons' line with a loop at one end. I put the patch thru the loop, then run the loose end thru the bore. I put the loose end back thru the loop as well, so I can just keep pulling it thru for multiple passes, changing the patch and what ever it gets wet with, or dry patches to end with. With a .22 it will almost never have lead deposits. When you're comparing ammo, it can be good to start with a clean bore, then fire 5 or 10 rounds to "season the bore" with the lube of the bullet variety you mean to check. Then fire your accuracy rounds. When you're done with one ammo type, clean the bore with 2 passes of swabs soaked in Hoppes', then 2 dry patches, and repeat the seasoning with the next ammo type. It is a good idea to keep a nice brass cleaning rod on hand, in case a bullet ever gets lodged in your bore. There's really no other way to get it back out. In testing ammo, do try some of the Federal Lightening from walmart. It's cheap, and popular as a fairly accurate load. The big trick in finding your preferred ammo is to compromise between accuracy and price. With a bit of testing, you can probably find a plinking round for around 4 cents each that is accurate enough to keep the fun in the game. BTW- While you're out looking at things, don't forget to get a pair or 2 (they're cheap) of shooting glasses, and some kind of ear protection. I'm already deaf in higher frequencies, so I usually forego the ears, but I get stuff hitting my glasses all the time. __________________ Around here, we don't say "Oh shucks", or "oh man". We say Oh BAMA!!

10-15-2011, 01:04 AM	#13
clichedusername Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 9	Re: Almost bought my first .22 The newest update is as follows: I drove to the gun store yesterday. The Mark II was expected to have arrived by then. Indeed the rifle was in the store. Its employees brought it out for my inspection. Jokingly, I asked them to insure that this guns' trigger housing was solidly seated. I was shocked when again the trigger housing popped off. Confused I left again without a rifle. Today the store called to say that the supplier of my rifle had never been contacted, and the replacement gun order had just been placed this morning. The gun that I was almost handed was the same rifle from last week. Now it will be an additional one or two weeks for the order can be processed, shipped and arrive. At this point the store that I am dealing with is making me agitated. Is there a way I can buy the gun through Savage, and have it shipped to a different FFL? The customer service that Savage provides would undoubtedly be more satisfying and I do not really want to deal with a middleman anymore. Still excited about a long future of shooting a beautiful rifle... and hoping that dream of a happy future will occur in the not to distant future.

10-15-2011, 01:23 AM	#14
Brisk44 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Iowa Contributor Posts: 1,747	Re: Almost bought my first .22 If they have actually called in the replacement order this time then probably not if they haven't then cancel the order get your money back and order ffrom Savage and find a different FFL to receive it.If you do have to go with the original FFL I'd complain and maybe he'll knock some off the price or give you some ammo. Sorry you're having so much trouble.

10-15-2011, 03:58 AM	#15
Regular Joe V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 269	Re: Almost bought my first .22 It doesn't surprise me a bit that ineptitude is the feeling you get at Bass Pro. For a KNOWN good bunch of guys who are close to you, I would recommend Lock 'n' Load, located at about Eastern and Serene. http://www.locknloadgunstore.com/ There ya' go! They're the place I told you about where black rifles are pretty common. Good people are common there too, and they probably know just who to call. __________________ Around here, we don't say "Oh shucks", or "oh man". We say Oh BAMA!!

10-16-2011, 03:44 AM	#16
clichedusername Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 9	Re: Almost bought my first .22 I did not think of using them as my FFL. After hearing you discuss how they can help me find the "evil black rifle" of my dreams, I figured that they could assist when I developed a more refined taste in firearms. Anyway I called them this morning and they will check to see if their suppliers can get me a Mark II promptly. Is it possible to buy directly from Savage? I just assumed that they would only sell to dealers.

10-16-2011, 04:15 AM	#17
Regular Joe V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 269	Re: Almost bought my first .22 Here's your rifle on the Savage website. Look near the bottom, and see that they provide links to GunsAmerica and some others, but do not offer sales directly. Just as well, in that Mfg. sites that do offer sales are normally asking the full MSRP, and the market is usually a good amount less. The difference should be enough to cover the shipping and FFL transfer costs. If you have any problem at all with L'n'L, call Spurlocks', in Old Henderson, at 564-5668. At Spurlocks, you're just as likely to deal with the owner as with anyone, and they are definitely good ol' boys there. __________________ Around here, we don't say "Oh shucks", or "oh man". We say Oh BAMA!!

10-16-2011, 05:00 AM	#18
Regular Joe V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 269	Re: Almost bought my first .22 I looked at the entire Savage inventory at Cheaper than Dirt (the worlds' largest inventory of guns, period), and they don't even list the BTVSS. You should try L'n'L and Spurlocks', and if they find what I found, either decide to settle on Bass Blo, or pick another rifle. Without the thumbhole stock, it makes no difference if the gun is left or right handed. I'm left handed, but all of my guns are either right handed or ambi, by design. If you can't find the BTVSS anywhere else, and want to be done with "those clowns", I suggest that you take a long hard look at CZ rifles. This one: http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-452-american/ is almost certainly a better rifle than the Savage. Read the comments at the lower part of the page. This one is far more likely to be available. I can't find that one either! It was the 452 left handed. This one would be a great place to start, and would probably stay with you forever: http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/31193-55.html The only diff between this and a left hand version is that you operate the bolt with the right hand. For $322, it's a great rifle. Everything there is to know about rimfire guns of any kind is here: http://www.rfc.com/forums/index.php __________________ Around here, we don't say "Oh shucks", or "oh man". We say Oh BAMA!! Last edited by Regular Joe; 10-16-2011 at 05:41 AM..