WWII Walther PPK - OK, I Give Up - The Firearms Forum

wwagner12 · 11-05-2011, 05:47 PM

OK, I give Up ! My Serial # 286892 PPK has me completely baffled.

Other than the S/N and Eagle over N, there are no markings and I have no holster that accompanied it upon purchase. From www.tague.at serial number listings, it appears to be produced in 1940.

The original grips are mottled light brown and the magazine has the finger extention.

So, considering this PPK is somewhat generic, please advise, if possible, to whom it was likely issued: SS, police, party member,Wehrmacht or ??

Jim Hauff · 11-05-2011, 07:18 PM

wwagner,
Welcome to the forum. With only the Eagle over N proof it was a commercial model. Absence of any Waffen Amp stampings indicates it was not "officially" issued to military - so...only the gun knows its true history - could have remained in the public domain or may have been picked up by a military person during the war??? Let's see what some of the folks more into the PP and PPK data than I, have to say.

Jim K · 11-05-2011, 08:30 PM

Are there really no markings, or do you mean no markings other than the standard Walther factory markings?

Jim

valbehaved · 11-05-2011, 09:27 PM

Does the gun have a serial number stamped on the right side of the slide?
Does the magazine have a serial number on the spine?

wonderwhippet · 11-05-2011, 09:29 PM

The eagle over N marking is a government proofmark applied to commercial pistols. If issued by the wehrmacht it has a very small marking consisting of an eagle over 359.

wwagner12 · 11-09-2011, 06:35 PM

Dear Friends,

The serial number is located on the frame behind the trigger.....as usual; no other serial number anywhere on the PPK.The Eagle over N is in 2 places:
1) Visible on the "bolt" inside the chamber, and 2) On the slide under the chamber opening.

No serial number on the magazine.

Of course, it has the Walther markings on the slide in the usual location.

That's it, no other markings.

So, it's an early WWII PPK.....you might say a "Generic" PPK since it doesn't have any of the various marking found on the Wehrmacht, SS or RZM PPKs.

From the popular book on SS PP/PPKs, the S/Ns come very close - within 1000 of my S/N, 286892K

What say you ??

wwagner12

RJay · 11-09-2011, 09:33 PM

It is a commercial Walther PPK. It could have been owned and used by a shopkeeper, a butcher, baker or candle stick maker. It could have been carried as a personal firearm by a German soldier. From the markings you described it was never a military issue nor any type of " Nazi Party gun ". Someone went down to a German gun store, laid so many German Marks and carried it home. Come the American liberators who confiscated all the small arms they could find and it found its way to the states. There is no way to tell who or what or when ,if ever , it was used by.

Sorry about that.

wwagner12 · 11-10-2011, 01:49 PM

Thank you Gentlemen,

It appears the concensus is that my Serial # 286892 PPK sat out the war in the drawer or desk of a German civilian.

If may be considered somewhat unique since in all my poking around on the internet looking for its origin, I have yet to see a similar PPK devoid of any
markings other than the S/N and the proof marks.

So, unless I find a documented serial number that tells the whole story, I am
pleased with your replies which are quite logical. It didn't occur to me that any of Walther's WWII production went to other than a government agency.

Many thanks,

Bill Wagner

SSMN · 11-10-2011, 03:34 PM

Bill,
I am the author of the "popular book on SS PP/PPKs" and as you stated, your gun is not far off from those documented in the book. But in that particular serial number range, it would require a serial number to be present on both slide and frame (as well as on both original magazines) to confirm SS issue.

Just because it has no proof of SS or military issue does not mean that it did not see service during the war (1939-1945). By the end of the war, every weapon that could be begged, borrowed or stolen was pressed into service. It just means that in the absence of any documents confirming issue and/or service your gun has no chain of provenance.

wwagner12 · 11-10-2011, 04:00 PM

Thanks...........SSMN,

Your comments are most welcome & appreciated.

All of this is only for my historical interest. I really like my PPK.......what an excellent and handsome piece of engineering. Since I am a mechanical engineer, I have a special appreciation for this clever design.

Here I have a weapon, that if it could talk would relate some fascinating
accounts of that era between 1940 - 1945.

So, maybe more records will emerge and help me find my PPK's origin.

As I understand it, the Walther factory was overrun by the Russians who
took many of the records. If they still exist, they could open up another
chapter of your "SS Walther PP/PPK Identification & Documents" book.

Best Regards,

Bill Wagner

SSMN · 11-10-2011, 04:15 PM

Bill,
To let the cat out of the bag....I have had a Russian researcher looking for those documents in the Soviet Archives for some time. Their archives are accessible and available for research (with a little baksheesh to grease the wheels). They are located approximately 40 miles outside of Moscow. As you may be aware, the Soviets were as anal regarding record keeping as the Germans, but in the case of the Germans, they were the losers and relatively little was retained (that is, if you consider several million documents still to be found in the US National Archives to be relatively little).

Huge numbers of weapons disappeared into the East at the wars end. I have heard first hand accounts of railroad cars overflowing with captured arms being shipped to military bases in the Urals. They were being catalogued, refurbished (ala dipped P38s) and prepared for re-issue to their troops for the expected war vs allies to follow the cessation of WWII hostilities.

I fully believe that they they are still out there somewhere.

PS...I appreciate your fascination with these fine guns. I spent my professional life as a mechanical engineer as well.

matty20147 · 11-10-2011, 06:00 PM

Hey fellas! New here and need some help! I dont mean to hijack the OP thread but I also have a ppk/s question(s)!
I aquired today the following...
Almost 100% PPK/S in 7.65mm
The marking on the left side are as follows
Made in W Germany
Carl Walther Waffenfabrilk Ulm/Do.
Modell PPK/S Cal. 7.65mm

Right side markings include the following
Proof on the the ejection port with the number 70
What appears to be some sort of graphic following the number 70
Eagle over N (I believe this to be a N)
Serial number-249088 directly below the ejection port and another on the frame behind the trigger that number is 249088S
Interarms Alexanderia Virginia
There is also what appears to be the Eagle over the N again on the slide just forward of the serrations in the slide.
Weapon has 2 mags. One is flush the other is finger grove. No serial number on mags just PPK/S 7.65mm
I also have the orginal owners manual in excllent condition as well as the factory german test target with the matching serial number to the gun. The target is in excllent condition as well with the signature of the armorer on it.

Guys,
What do I have here and what is it worth! Thanks for the help!!!

wonderwhippet · 11-10-2011, 06:35 PM

You have a post war Walther PPK/S made and shipped to the US in 1970. In 1968 it was decreed that the PPK was not a "sporting arm" and could no longer be brought into this country. To get around this law, the grip frame of the larger PP was mated to the slide of a PPK, thus making it eligible for American import. The caliber is 7.65, which is .32 ACP, the least desirible, hence the least value of the imports. The .380 and the .22 are much more in demand. Value of yours is in the $500 vicinity at the top end, and around $400 at the low end.

jmitchell3 · 12-09-2011, 02:26 PM

Was wondering if anyone could give me a range for the following PPK:

Walther PPK, black matte (not shiny) finish, black grips.

s/n 380xxxk, here's the details:

5th RSHA-Variation (very rough Military-Finish; serialnumber on the floorplate of the magazine)

Characteristics:
Legend:
Walther-Banner
Waffenfabrik Walther Zella Mehlis (Thür)
Walther's Patent Cal 7,65 m/m
Mod. PPK
Finish: rough Military-Finish, blued
Grips: one piece chequered Bakelit with Walther-banner, black
Serial number:
6-digits number with suffix "K" right on frame
6-digits number with suffix "K" right on slide
6-digits number on floorplate of magazine with additional 2 (spare magazine)
Acceptance stamp: none
Test proof stamp:
E/N right on chamber
E/N right on slide below ejection port
E/N on barrel near muzzle

Thank you!

Danny · 12-09-2011, 05:24 PM

WWAGER12 to start off with your pistol was manufactured in 1941. That was when the e/n was started. Either the the start or there are collectors saying April the 1st. Not having a pic to view & going by your word on condition, I would value the price at 1200 dollars. Keep it clean & oiled and try to pick up a holster and just a plain bottom mag to complete the rig. Hold on to it, as it will only grow in value.
Kind Regards
Danny

11-05-2011, 05:47 PM	#1
wwagner12 Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 5	WWII Walther PPK - OK, I Give Up OK, I give Up ! My Serial # 286892 PPK has me completely baffled. Other than the S/N and Eagle over N, there are no markings and I have no holster that accompanied it upon purchase. From www.tague.at serial number listings, it appears to be produced in 1940. The original grips are mottled light brown and the magazine has the finger extention. So, considering this PPK is somewhat generic, please advise, if possible, to whom it was likely issued: SS, police, party member,Wehrmacht or ?? -->

11-05-2011, 07:18 PM	#2
Jim Hauff Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA Posts: 2,980	Re: WWII Walther PPK - OK, I Give Up wwagner, Welcome to the forum. With only the Eagle over N proof it was a commercial model. Absence of any Waffen Amp stampings indicates it was not "officially" issued to military - so...only the gun knows its true history - could have remained in the public domain or may have been picked up by a military person during the war??? Let's see what some of the folks more into the PP and PPK data than I, have to say. __________________ Jim Hauff ~ H&R Collector In Memory of Bill Goforth and Jim Ritchie

11-05-2011, 08:30 PM	#3
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: WWII Walther PPK - OK, I Give Up Are there really no markings, or do you mean no markings other than the standard Walther factory markings? Jim

11-05-2011, 09:27 PM	#4
valbehaved V.I.P. Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 234	Re: WWII Walther PPK - OK, I Give Up Does the gun have a serial number stamped on the right side of the slide? Does the magazine have a serial number on the spine?

11-05-2011, 09:29 PM	#5
wonderwhippet Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,586	Re: WWII Walther PPK - OK, I Give Up The eagle over N marking is a government proofmark applied to commercial pistols. If issued by the wehrmacht it has a very small marking consisting of an eagle over 359.

11-09-2011, 06:35 PM	#6
wwagner12 Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 5	Re: WWII Walther PPK - OK, I Give Up Dear Friends, The serial number is located on the frame behind the trigger.....as usual; no other serial number anywhere on the PPK.The Eagle over N is in 2 places: 1) Visible on the "bolt" inside the chamber, and 2) On the slide under the chamber opening. No serial number on the magazine. Of course, it has the Walther markings on the slide in the usual location. That's it, no other markings. So, it's an early WWII PPK.....you might say a "Generic" PPK since it doesn't have any of the various marking found on the Wehrmacht, SS or RZM PPKs. From the popular book on SS PP/PPKs, the S/Ns come very close - within 1000 of my S/N, 286892K What say you ?? wwagner12

11-09-2011, 09:33 PM	#7
RJay Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,487	Re: WWII Walther PPK - OK, I Give Up It is a commercial Walther PPK. It could have been owned and used by a shopkeeper, a butcher, baker or candle stick maker. It could have been carried as a personal firearm by a German soldier. From the markings you described it was never a military issue nor any type of " Nazi Party gun ". Someone went down to a German gun store, laid so many German Marks and carried it home. Come the American liberators who confiscated all the small arms they could find and it found its way to the states. There is no way to tell who or what or when ,if ever , it was used by. Sorry about that. __________________ RonJames

11-10-2011, 01:49 PM	#8
wwagner12 Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 5	Re: WWII Walther PPK - OK, I Give Up Thank you Gentlemen, It appears the concensus is that my Serial # 286892 PPK sat out the war in the drawer or desk of a German civilian. If may be considered somewhat unique since in all my poking around on the internet looking for its origin, I have yet to see a similar PPK devoid of any markings other than the S/N and the proof marks. So, unless I find a documented serial number that tells the whole story, I am pleased with your replies which are quite logical. It didn't occur to me that any of Walther's WWII production went to other than a government agency. Many thanks, Bill Wagner

11-10-2011, 03:34 PM	#9
SSMN Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Ely, Minnesota Posts: 507	Re: WWII Walther PPK - OK, I Give Up Bill, I am the author of the "popular book on SS PP/PPKs" and as you stated, your gun is not far off from those documented in the book. But in that particular serial number range, it would require a serial number to be present on both slide and frame (as well as on both original magazines) to confirm SS issue. Just because it has no proof of SS or military issue does not mean that it did not see service during the war (1939-1945). By the end of the war, every weapon that could be begged, borrowed or stolen was pressed into service. It just means that in the absence of any documents confirming issue and/or service your gun has no chain of provenance.

11-10-2011, 04:00 PM	#10
wwagner12 Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 5	Re: WWII Walther PPK - OK, I Give Up Thanks...........SSMN, Your comments are most welcome & appreciated. All of this is only for my historical interest. I really like my PPK.......what an excellent and handsome piece of engineering. Since I am a mechanical engineer, I have a special appreciation for this clever design. Here I have a weapon, that if it could talk would relate some fascinating accounts of that era between 1940 - 1945. So, maybe more records will emerge and help me find my PPK's origin. As I understand it, the Walther factory was overrun by the Russians who took many of the records. If they still exist, they could open up another chapter of your "SS Walther PP/PPK Identification & Documents" book. Best Regards, Bill Wagner

11-10-2011, 04:15 PM	#11
SSMN Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Ely, Minnesota Posts: 507	Re: WWII Walther PPK - OK, I Give Up Bill, To let the cat out of the bag....I have had a Russian researcher looking for those documents in the Soviet Archives for some time. Their archives are accessible and available for research (with a little baksheesh to grease the wheels). They are located approximately 40 miles outside of Moscow. As you may be aware, the Soviets were as anal regarding record keeping as the Germans, but in the case of the Germans, they were the losers and relatively little was retained (that is, if you consider several million documents still to be found in the US National Archives to be relatively little). Huge numbers of weapons disappeared into the East at the wars end. I have heard first hand accounts of railroad cars overflowing with captured arms being shipped to military bases in the Urals. They were being catalogued, refurbished (ala dipped P38s) and prepared for re-issue to their troops for the expected war vs allies to follow the cessation of WWII hostilities. I fully believe that they they are still out there somewhere. PS...I appreciate your fascination with these fine guns. I spent my professional life as a mechanical engineer as well. Last edited by SSMN; 11-10-2011 at 04:18 PM..

11-10-2011, 06:00 PM	#12
matty20147 Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 1	Re: WWII Walther PPK - OK, I Give Up Hey fellas! New here and need some help! I dont mean to hijack the OP thread but I also have a ppk/s question(s)! I aquired today the following... Almost 100% PPK/S in 7.65mm The marking on the left side are as follows Made in W Germany Carl Walther Waffenfabrilk Ulm/Do. Modell PPK/S Cal. 7.65mm Right side markings include the following Proof on the the ejection port with the number 70 What appears to be some sort of graphic following the number 70 Eagle over N (I believe this to be a N) Serial number-249088 directly below the ejection port and another on the frame behind the trigger that number is 249088S Interarms Alexanderia Virginia There is also what appears to be the Eagle over the N again on the slide just forward of the serrations in the slide. Weapon has 2 mags. One is flush the other is finger grove. No serial number on mags just PPK/S 7.65mm I also have the orginal owners manual in excllent condition as well as the factory german test target with the matching serial number to the gun. The target is in excllent condition as well with the signature of the armorer on it. Guys, What do I have here and what is it worth! Thanks for the help!!!

11-10-2011, 06:35 PM	#13
wonderwhippet Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,586	Re: WWII Walther PPK - OK, I Give Up You have a post war Walther PPK/S made and shipped to the US in 1970. In 1968 it was decreed that the PPK was not a "sporting arm" and could no longer be brought into this country. To get around this law, the grip frame of the larger PP was mated to the slide of a PPK, thus making it eligible for American import. The caliber is 7.65, which is .32 ACP, the least desirible, hence the least value of the imports. The .380 and the .22 are much more in demand. Value of yours is in the $500 vicinity at the top end, and around $400 at the low end.

12-09-2011, 02:26 PM	#14
jmitchell3 Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 1	Re: WWII Walther PPK - OK, I Give Up Was wondering if anyone could give me a range for the following PPK: Walther PPK, black matte (not shiny) finish, black grips. s/n 380xxxk, here's the details: 5th RSHA-Variation (very rough Military-Finish; serialnumber on the floorplate of the magazine) Characteristics: Legend: Walther-Banner Waffenfabrik Walther Zella Mehlis (Thür) Walther's Patent Cal 7,65 m/m Mod. PPK Finish: rough Military-Finish, blued Grips: one piece chequered Bakelit with Walther-banner, black Serial number: 6-digits number with suffix "K" right on frame 6-digits number with suffix "K" right on slide 6-digits number on floorplate of magazine with additional 2 (spare magazine) Acceptance stamp: none Test proof stamp: E/N right on chamber E/N right on slide below ejection port E/N on barrel near muzzle Thank you!

12-09-2011, 05:24 PM	#15
Danny Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: West Va Contributor Posts: 594	Re: WWII Walther PPK - OK, I Give Up WWAGER12 to start off with your pistol was manufactured in 1941. That was when the e/n was started. Either the the start or there are collectors saying April the 1st. Not having a pic to view & going by your word on condition, I would value the price at 1200 dollars. Keep it clean & oiled and try to pick up a holster and just a plain bottom mag to complete the rig. Hold on to it, as it will only grow in value. Kind Regards Danny __________________ THE GUN HAS PLAYED A CRITICAL ROLE IN HISTORY. AN INVENTION WHICH HAS BEEN PRAISED & DENOUNCED...SERVED HERO & VILLAIN ALIKE...AND CARRIES WITH IT MORAL RESPONSIBILITY...TO UNDERSTAND THE GUN IS TO BETTER UNDERSTAND HISTORY.