Cleaning rough bores?

[LDBennett]

I have been thinking about what is best to do with a rough Military barrel for cleaning. This particular one shoots well, the land tops are shinny, but the groves are rough and dark. No matter how long I clean it, within reason, the patches still come out pretty black. A copper remover foam application gives a deep, deep blue patch. So this barrel is really loaded up, apparently has pitted groves and shinny lands, but still shoots well. So here's the quandary:

Is it better to leave the grooves filled with the powder and copper residue to smooth out the groove's rough surface or to attempt to clean them completely out only to fill back up with cooper and powder residue with every shot. The resultant rough surface from that total cleaning is likely to be tough on bullets and that may even effect accuracy (???).

Or is the condition of the grooves really just a residue that will eventually be removed leaving a pristine surface underneath. A lot of cleaning shows no evidence of this. There may be a XMAS Santa too but I doubt it (??).

Opinions and experiences gladly accepted.

LDBennett

[StoneChimney]

If it is shooting OK, I would not put heroic efforts into it.

[Bindernut]

I still try to get them as clean as possible after every session, but I have gotten to the point already with one of my Mausers that it's just too darned pitted to get all the copper flushed out too. It has moderate pitting on the grooves and very minor pitting on the lands. I've never tried any of the foaming copper solvent stuff yet...just CR-10 or Sweets7.62 to cut the copper and Kroil for my powder solvent.


It still groups just fine though and it's a numbers matching rifle so I just clean as best as I can and this one always gets a heavier coat of oil in the bore than what I normally use so any fouling left in the barrel doesn't pit up any worse than it already is. At least I'm hoping that sealing the crud in with oil with keep it from breathing so it can corrode further.

[jack404]

LD try this

get some brake fluid ( hydraulic fluid but high heat type) cork your bore and pour in and let sit for 5-10 mins ( do not leave for more than 10 mins )

then a good stiff wire brushing and then try again

see how you go

brake fluid will cause a reaction with the copper which should lift or loosen whats there

[Bindernut]

Originally Posted by jack404

LD try this

get some brake fluid ( hydraulic fluid but high heat type) cork your bore and pour in and let sit for 5-10 mins ( do not leave for more than 10 mins )

then a good stiff wire brushing and then try again

see how you go

brake fluid will cause a reaction with the copper which should lift or loosen whats there

I've never heard that one before Jack. I might fiddle around with it on some scraps though just to try.

I'm not sure the brake fluid we've got here in the states will react with copper though. Most vehicles have copper washers to seal the mechanical connections between brake parts so I don't see where they'd use em if the fluid would attack them.

Now, I have done a full strength household ammonia soak in several rifles before to rip loose some real heavy jacket fouling.
That works great...but with a pitted bore you'd have to do it every time to get all the copper out.

[jack404]

do so theres a lot of things different there to here .. amazing differences eh ..

[Bindernut]

I wouldn't think things would be different from here to down there. I know several guys in Australia and NZ from a couple of Mopar sites I belong to and we send parts back and forth between the two continents all the time...brake parts included.

I've already got a couple of straggler bullets that I'm gonna sacrifice to try this out anyway...you got my curiosity up and it's too cold to go mess around out in the garage tonight!
I've got both DOT3 (poly glycol) and DOT5 (silicone) brake fluid here to try.

[CHW2021]

In my opinion, the bore will not be improved by copper and carbon residue; since you will not shoot the gun daily, clean it.
Sweets 7.62 is an aggressive copper solvent that can not be left in the bore for extended periods, foam solvents act quickly and need to be reapplied and are expensive.
Personally I use Butches bore shine and have left it in for hours; brush, patch and reapply. There are also electronic bore cleaners that would probably be your easiest solution.
For a rifle that has a pitted bore solvent should be used after each session at the range; you have not seen the clean bore condition, keep at it until you can at least evaluate the clean bare metal bore.

[jim brady]

LD - the answer to your question depends on what rifle and what caliber you are working on. I have a .303 (a 1916 Enfield) that had a bore much as you describe. I cleaned that bore with JB Bore paste, Sweets, Hoppe's and Lord knows what all to get the bore shiney. The lands were in good shape, but the grooves still dark.

Stopped getting that blue (copper) from the bore, and the cleaning effort ended there.

I ended up using a fire-lapping kit from Brownell's. The bore isn't perfect, but MUCH better. I'd estimate that the bore is 75% better than when I started. This kit has 50 bullets that are impregnated with various grades of lapping compound.. Just a matter loading the bullets with a starting powder charge, then fire-and-swab after sucessive shots. As I recall, those bullets were about $25 or $30, and of course they are not used for anything but this process.

[jim brady]

LD - a Post Script for you: I'd bought a really nice RC Mauser with a similar bore - shiney lands but dark grooves. I cleaned that one up with Sweet's and JB Bore Paste. Lucky for me, the grooves cleaned up really well (after about 300 GI patches) and there was NO pitting. The bore is really nice and bright, and that rifle shoots like a dream. That had to have been the most shot rifle I'd ever bought.

There were an interesting set of teeth prints on the wrist of the stock. After linseeding the stock there are now just dark staines on the wood there. The wood has swollen back so that the imprints are almost gone. I'd always figured that a German soldier had a really bad day, maybe at Stalingrad? If I was any good at computers or taking pictures I'd enclude them.

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by LDBennett

I have been thinking about what is best to do with a rough Military barrel for cleaning. This particular one shoots well, the land tops are shinny, but the groves are rough and dark. No matter how long I clean it, within reason, the patches still come out pretty black. A copper remover foam application gives a deep, deep blue patch. So this barrel is really loaded up, apparently has pitted groves and shinny lands, but still shoots well. So here's the quandary:

Is it better to leave the grooves filled with the powder and copper residue to smooth out the groove's rough surface or to attempt to clean them completely out only to fill back up with cooper and powder residue with every shot. The resultant rough surface from that total cleaning is likely to be tough on bullets and that may even effect accuracy (???).

Or is the condition of the grooves really just a residue that will eventually be removed leaving a pristine surface underneath. A lot of cleaning shows no evidence of this. There may be a XMAS Santa too but I doubt it (??).

Opinions and experiences gladly accepted.

LDBennett

I use tin oxide and montana extreme to make a paste and then use it on very tight patches to brush the barrel about 25 strokes. I do that 4 or five times. It cleans and polishes all at the same time. The rifle builder that taught me how to do it said that every time you do it, you are using up 2 to 3% of your barrel life, so only do it when it is absolutely necessary.

[LDBennett]

The original question was:

"Is it better to leave the grooves filled with the powder and copper residue to smooth out the groove's rough surface or to attempt to clean them completely out only to fill back up with cooper and powder residue with every shot. The resultant rough surface from that total cleaning is likely to be tough on bullets and that may even effect accuracy (???)."

I know HOW to get the barrel clean but will the results end up with a shiny bore or polished lands and badly pitted groves? This gun is a military gun from Egypt that has only shot corrosive primer 8mm cartridges and was probably not cleaned after every shooting session which will pit the barrel for sure. I think the answer is unknown until all the gunk is removed.

But if the gun shoots fine now is it not better to just leave the grooves filled and smooth? If the barrel gets totally clean and the lands are pitted it may take tons of ammo through it to again fill the pits and for the accuracy to return??? I honestly don't know.

LDBennett

[CHW2021]

You just can not begin to guess what lies in your future, (enough philosophy) you should remove the old jacketing and fouling to see what the barrel condition actually is. You may be surprised at the condition or it may be as pitted as you fear; look and see.
Certainly the worst case is that you can fire enough rounds to load up the grooves with new copper to replace the old if it disappoints you. I do not see cleaning the barrel to the steel as a way to harm accuracy, I DO see it as a way you can discover the true potential of your gun.

Just because the "floor" of the grooves is pitted you can not automatically assume that the rifle is a goner, the proof will be in shooting it afterward.

[carver]

If the gun shoots well as is, I say leave it alone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Shoot modern powder, and primers in it so it won't degrade any more than it already has.

[Bindernut]

Originally Posted by LDBennett

But if the gun shoots fine now is it not better to just leave the grooves filled and smooth? If the barrel gets totally clean and the lands are pitted it may take tons of ammo through it to again fill the pits and for the accuracy to return??? I honestly don't know.

LDBennett

That's pretty much what I've done with that one particular Mauser that I mentioned a few posts above. I gave up trying to scrub it completely clean since it still groups pretty decent.
I think as long as you've had it scrubbed clean enough to get rid of the salts from the corrosive primed ammo...those I know are bad juju and will keep doing damage if trapped in behind some powder/jacket fouling even if you keep the bore well oiled during storage.

[LDBennett]

carver:

The gun is an Egyptian 8mm Hakim. It eats brass alive. To reload for it myself is stupid because I would have to replace the brass with each firing. The problem is the gas system. It is brutal regardless if it is adjusted right (fires, extracts, ejects, loads new round and will stay locked back on last round), that is, to minimum gas to do it all. This gun nearly pulls the rims off brass. And when as good as it gets it severally distorts the rim so as to not be reusable.

The gun shoots well, is unique, and I like it so I shoot Mil Surp ammo in it that unfortunately is corrosively primed. I can't make the barrel any worse than it already is if I clean it right after every range trip with both a water based cleaner and Hoppe's #9 which Hoppe's says is for corrosive primers (right on the bottles I have).

I am leaning towards NOT removing all the gunk in the barrel and just cleaning it to make sure to remove all the corrosive priming debris left from the current shooting session (immediately!).

I know it bothers me too, to not get down to bare metal in the bore but it shoots so well I don't want to risk that. I have lots of other high power rifles that will shoot tiny groups and have pristine bores. The Hakim is just not one of them but it is adequate for steel swingers in the field as is. If I want to get serious with a Military gun I can pull out my CMP Special Grade M1 Garand with a new stock, refinished metal, and a new Criterion barrel. That gun NEVER get Mil Surp ammo and gets cleaned to a meticulous level. Or I could pull out my FN-FAL or my new PTR-91. I'm covered!

LDBennett

[jim brady]

Sorry, LD - I wasn't trying to tell you how to clean the bore. Just that fire-lapping really helped and the smoother flats in the grooves clean much easier after doing that. I doubt if you are going to hurt any accuracy - so long as you dont'y get carried away with the process.

[The_Rifleman]

Originally Posted by LDBennett

Is it better to leave the grooves filled with the powder and copper residue to smooth out the groove's rough surface or to attempt to clean them completely out only to fill back up with cooper and powder residue with every shot. The resultant rough surface from that total cleaning is likely to be tough on bullets and that may even effect accuracy (???).

I am convinced that a rough bore does not affect accuracy. My US Model of 1917 shoots sub-moa every time I shoot groups, even when it looked like this.




That was after a 3 day cleaning marathon; which was needed to finally get spotless patches.

When I saw the true condition of the bore, I tried cleaning it every shot as one would a barrel beak-in procedure, it now looks much like you describe yours to look like.




Which I figure is good enough. I still clean it thoroughly, but I wait until it has been shot 20-40 times, or when it gets rained on.

Originally Posted by LDBennett

Or is the condition of the grooves really just a residue that will eventually be removed leaving a pristine surface underneath. A lot of cleaning shows no evidence of this. There may be a XMAS Santa too but I doubt it (??).

I would think it is rougher underneath the dirt than it looks now.

...

I'd clean it thoroughly.