more .223 rem qiestions?

[socalfamous87]

im loading .223 rem 50 gr hornaday z-maz(the green zombie tip). this is the first time me using this projectile. some of the ammo will not chamber in completly. im shoooting out of my ar15 and a mini 14. im using a rcbs small base die the OAL of my ammo is 2.210. my trim to lenght is 1.752-1.756. i know the manual says 1.750 but i was told 1.760 was the max. also awhile back my brother broke the de-caping pin and it seemed like he deformed the expanding ball a litlle while trying to remove to replace the pin. SO i have a feeling its 1 of 2 things ONE: the trim to length problem or TWO: maybe the expander ball is messed up and not opening the case mouth enough so when i seat and crimp it forces to much and maybe pushing the neck back more? WHAT DO YOU THINK?

[steve4102]

I think.

It is not your case length. Max is 1.760 and "Trim-to" is 1.750, anything in between 1.750 and 1.760 will be fine.

I think we need a little more information.
How did you set up your FL sizing die? The generic way is to raise the ram, screw the die into the press until it touches the shell holder, lower the ram and screw the die in 1/4 turn more.

Have you tried to chamber just the sized brass, no bullet? This will tell you if it's your "messed up" expander ball or not. If you have and they chamber with ease, then you know it's in your seating process.

I think this is what is wrong,

so when i seat and crimp

. Are you seating and crimping with the same die in the same step? Over crimping with the seating die can bulge/deform the necks so they will not chamber.
Back the seating die out of the press so as to remove the crimp feature and load a few rounds. My guess is they will chamber with ease.

[socalfamous87]

Originally Posted by steve4102

I think.

It is not your case length. Max is 1.760 and "Trim-to" is 1.750, anything in between 1.750 and 1.760 will be fine.

I think we need a little more information.
How did you set up your FL sizing die? The generic way is to raise the ram, screw the die into the press until it touches the shell holder, lower the ram and screw the die in 1/4 turn more.

Have you tried to chamber just the sized brass, no bullet? This will tell you if it's your "messed up" expander ball or not. If you have and they chamber with ease, then you know it's in your seating process.

I think this is what is wrong, . Are you seating and crimping with the same die in the same step? Over crimping with the seating die can bulge/deform the necks so they will not chamber.
Back the seating die out of the press so as to remove the crimp feature and load a few rounds. My guess is they will chamber with ease.

I'm using a small base die. Yes crimp and seating is in the same process. What do you mean by back the seating die out? Un-screw the die? It has the actual die and bullet seater.

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by socalfamous87

I'm using a small base die. Yes crimp and seating is in the same process. What do you mean by back the seating die out? Un-screw the die? It has the actual die and bullet seater.

Unscrew the seating die from the press one full turn and lock it down with the locking ring. Then adjust OAL with seating stem.

Better yet do this.
Take a sized piece of brass and place it in the shell holder.
Loosen the lock ring on the seating die and back it out of the press about 5-6 turns.
Remove the seating stem assembly.
Raise the ram with the sized case in the shell holder.
Screw the seating die into the press until you feel it contact the case mouth.
Unscrew the die one full turn and lock it down with the locking ring.

This will set up your seating die to remove the crimp feature.

[312shooter]

Aside from seating and crimping, the very first step
Could be your problem. OAL, trim to length, crimping; it all comes second to actually resizing the case correctly in the first place. If the resizing die is not adjusted to push the shoulder back to proper headspace dimesions, you are best not going any further in the load sequence because they will not chamber or they will have excessive headspace and cause a very dangerous situation. Look further into properly sizing your brass, good luck.

[medalguy]

Get a Wilson case gauge to determine if the shoulder is set back the proper length. The case gauge will also tell you if the case length is correct but you have already checked that and it's good.

I wouldn't reload any rifle ammo without a case gauge.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/456...-223-remington

[socalfamous87]

How much of a crimp do you need for my ar15 and a mini 14?

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by socalfamous87

How much of a crimp do you need for my ar15 and a mini 14?

None, as long as you have proper neck tension.
That said, I still crimp all of my semi auto ammo, but not with the seating die. I use a separate die called the Lee Factory Crimp die. It is a collet type die that squeezes the case mouth around the bullet. Case length is not critical, cannot bulge the case, can be used with or without cannelure(crimp groove), helps secure the bullet and improves accuracy. YMMV.

[jack404]

[socalfamous87]

Originally Posted by steve4102

I think.

It is not your case length. Max is 1.760 and "Trim-to" is 1.750, anything in between 1.750 and 1.760 will be fine.

I think we need a little more information.
How did you set up your FL sizing die? The generic way is to raise the ram, screw the die into the press until it touches the shell holder, lower the ram and screw the die in 1/4 turn more.

Have you tried to chamber just the sized brass, no bullet? This will tell you if it's your "messed up" expander ball or not. If you have and they chamber with ease, then you know it's in your seating process.

I think this is what is wrong, . Are you seating and crimping with the same die in the same step? Over crimping with the seating die can bulge/deform the necks so they will not chamber.
Back the seating die out of the press so as to remove the crimp feature and load a few rounds. My guess is they will chamber with ease.

much of a difference does this make?

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by socalfamous87

much of a difference does this make?

Well that depends. It depends on the die, the press and the shell holder.
As I stated earlier, this is the "Generic" way to set up an FL die, a more precise way is to use a gauge like the Hornady/Stoney Point Headspace Gauge.

When a case is run through the sizing die it makes contact with the case walls, this sizes the case body, as it does so the case begins to grow longer which in turn pushes the shoulder forward. The FL die needs to be adjusted deep enough to contact the shoulder of the case and bump it back.
Depending on the press the 1/4 turn past shell holder contact removes the slop in the linkage of the press resulting in much more consistent sizing. It's called "camming over".

[312shooter]

The generic way is to raise the ram, screw the die into the press until it touches the shell holder, lower the ram and screw the die in 1/4 turn more.

No...At most there should just be contact with shell holder and die adding this addition 1/4 turn will be too much shoulder setback, and unecessary strain on your die and press. My .223 setup achieves correct headspace with a few thousands gap between shellholder and die...same goes with .308.

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by 312shooter

No...At most there should just be contact with shell holder and die adding this addition 1/4 turn will be too much shoulder setback, and unecessary strain on your die and press. My .223 setup achieves correct headspace with a few thousands gap between shellholder and die...same goes with .308.

As I said this is the "Generic" way to set up an FL die. It is also the recommended set-up by RCBS and others. If you disagree you can take it up with them.


From RCBS instructions.
STEP 5 - INSTALL THE SIZER DIE

Thread the sizer die into the press until the die touches the shell holder when the ram is at the top of the press stroke. Raise the press handle and turn the die down another one-eigth to one-quarter of a turn and set the large lock ring. If you're using a carbide sizer die, make slight contact with the bottom of the die and the shell holder.

http://www.rcbs.com/guide/step_by_step_reloading.aspx#

From Redding.


1) Install the appropriate Shellholder into the Ram of your Press.

2) Raise the Ram so that it is in its uppermost position.

3) Screw the Full Length Resizing Die/Body Die down into the press until it firmly contacts the Shellholder.

4) Back the Ram away from the Die.

5) Screw the Die down FURTHER into your press an additional 1/8th to ¼ turn.

Note that you will feel the Ram/Shellholder contact the resizing Die before the stroke is completed. Completing the Ram Stroke will fell as though you are snapping the latch on a toolbox.

http://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips

From Forster.
CASE SIZING PROCEDURE
1. Install the Die into any standard 7/8-14 thread reloading
press or Forster’s Co-Ax® Reloading Press so that it
makes contact with the shell holder when the ram is at its
uppermost position.
2. Turn the Die another 1/8 to ¼ turn against the shell holder to
remove all play from the linkage system of the press.
3. Tighten the Cross Bolt Die Lock Ring (DIE-G-10) by using a
7/64 short arm hex key on the Die Lock Ring Screw

http://www.forsterproducts.com/clien...structions.pdf

[312shooter]

Different dies are designed to oversize the shoulders to different tolerance. In the case of redding dies they will set back the shoulders enough I promise repeatable case head seperation when doing it the way you listed. As I said in my first respone, understand headspace before reloading bottleneck cartriges, regurgitating generic instructions to a newb is going to get him in trouble fast. Learning how to properly size a cartrige with proper headspace as the guiding factor. Its OK to sound off to help people, just dont send them in the direction of danger!

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by 312shooter

Different dies are designed to oversize the shoulders to different tolerance. In the case of redding dies they will set back the shoulders enough I promise repeatable case head seperation when doing it the way you listed. As I said in my first respone, understand headspace before reloading bottleneck cartriges, regurgitating generic instructions to a newb is going to get him in trouble fast. Learning how to properly size a cartrige with proper headspace as the guiding factor. Its OK to sound off to help people, just dont send them in the direction of danger!

So following the directions of the die manufacturer is now Dangerous? Maybe you should contact Redding, Forster, RCBS etc. and tell them that they are sending new inexperience handloaders down the path of destruction and they need to change their instructions before somebody gets hurt or worse.

Just to clarify, I did say the the most precise way is to use a headspace gauge like the Hornady/Stoney Point gauge.

[312shooter]

. So following the directions of the die manufacturer is now Dangerous?

No! Posting information second hand to a new reloader without first understanding it YOURSELF is......nuff said

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by 312shooter

No! Posting information second hand to a new reloader without first understanding it YOURSELF is......nuff said

Second hand? Instructions from die and press manufacturers are not only dangerous they are now considered "second hand", a he-said-she-said type of thing?

As for me not understanding it myself, Ah NO wrong. I understand it perfectly well and I use gauges to set up my FL dies for the exact shoulder bump I desire. I could go into great detail as to how I set up my FL dies with or with out a gauge, but I see no need to waist my time with you.

That said, if you want to simmer down and talk headspace and the proper way to set up an FL die, I'm more than interested in having a civil conversation with you on another thread. Start it and I will chime in.

[gdmoody]

socal, I think the simple fix to the problem is to seat the bullets to 2.200 instead of the 2.210 that you are seating them. The Hornady manual says that the Max OAL for a 50 grain bullet it 2.200. I have never loaded the z-max for my ARs, but I do use a Z-max 40 grain bullet in the loads for my .223 Weatherby bolt action.

[socalfamous87]

Originally Posted by gdmoody

socal, I think the simple fix to the problem is to seat the bullets to 2.200 instead of the 2.210 that you are seating them. The Hornady manual says that the Max OAL for a 50 grain bullet it 2.200. I have never loaded the z-max for my ARs, but I do use a Z-max 40 grain bullet in the loads for my .223 Weatherby bolt action.

so is the z-max not a good bullet for the ar15? after these problems im not sure if id ever use them again. inormallt use a 55 grain fmj with canelure. how come you dont use the z-max on your ar15's?

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by socalfamous87

so is the z-max not a good bullet for the ar15? after these problems im not sure if id ever use them again. inormallt use a 55 grain fmj with canelure. how come you dont use the z-max on your ar15's?

The Z-Max is fine for the AR. It is basically a V-Max with a green tip instead of red. Very popular in AR type rifles. I highly doubt your choice of bullet is the problem.

[socalfamous87]

so this morning i re-sized the brass with that EXTRA 1/4 Turn. and then i seat the bullet with the OAL 2.200. i loaded a mag chambered a few rounds and it seems to chamber like butter. i feel better with the new updated rounds so i guess we will find out what happen ths weekend when i fire them. thanks again everyone

[langenc]

All kinds of advice.

What medalguy in post #6 said. I use a Wilson for every caliber I load.

For the 'messed up' RCBS expander etc, call RCBS and talk nice to the lady and Ill bet she will send you one-no charge..

[gdmoody]

Originally Posted by socalfamous87

so is the z-max not a good bullet for the ar15? after these problems im not sure if id ever use them again. inormallt use a 55 grain fmj with canelure. how come you dont use the z-max on your ar15's?

The Z-max is a fine bullet, the only reason I have not used them for my ARs is that I have thousands of 55 grain FMJ bullets already. The only reason I bought them for the Weatherby is that they were cheaper than V-max!!

[Regular Joe]

I'd wager that the WHOLE problem is that you're crimping AT ALL. It's very easy to collapse the area just below the shoulder, and thus render the case unusable. There is no need to crimp with .223. Your FL sizing die provides the neck tension you need. Try a magazine of rounds that have no crimp, and measure the last one before you allow it to chamber. You'll find that the bullet has NOT moved due to recoil. If the bullet creeps out a little due to chambering, it's not going to hurt anything, unless you're beyond the max. powder charge, and using magnum primers.