This made the hair on the back of my neck stand up!

[firefighter1635]

and brought a tear to my eye. God Bless America

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0fQd...eature=related

[ozo]

[jedwil]

Bravo, thanks for posting this. And an early Happy Birthday, America!

[BlackEagle]

+1 what jedwil said.


The liberals are constantly trying to write God out of our history. But God was very much in evidence as the founding fathers prepared the documents to set up this new nation.
David Barton, with Wall Builders had done a great job showing the role Biblical standard had in the establishment of the US.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/

Firefighter, thanks for posting that, and a warm welcome to the forum. You've found a great place here. This part of the forum is unique to shooting forums, and is a feature that keeps me coming back. It helps to set the tone for the forum as a whole.

[RunningOnMT]

Here is the truth. Take it or leave it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ynbnRJHNGc

[76Highboy]

[Goose Springsteen]

Originally Posted by BlackEagle

+1 what jedwil said.


The liberals are constantly trying to write God out of our history. But God was very much in evidence as the founding fathers prepared the documents to set up this new nation.
David Barton, with Wall Builders had done a great job showing the role Biblical standard had in the establishment of the US.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/

Firefighter, thanks for posting that, and a warm welcome to the forum. You've found a great place here. This part of the forum is unique to shooting forums, and is a feature that keeps me coming back. It helps to set the tone for the forum as a whole.

I'm sorry but I think this is demonstrably false the fact is that the United States was founded by men who came from a diversity of religious schools and many of the most prominent ones were not Christians - Jefferson in particular being a notable Deist - someone who had a belief in a none intervening/non personal God.

One could argue the US was and is a Christian nation by virtue of the proportion of its population that call it their faith but foundationally speaking the United States is secular something which is spelled out clearly in, amongst other places, section 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

[jack404]

I too am a Deist sir , and if i may . Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was as well ( you should read his veiws of the tripoli agreements he called the US suckers and was correct )and yes at the time the land and its ruler the tripoli caliph where two very differing people , and jefferson did not wish a war with Damascus and bagdad, just to stop the muslims takeing US citizens as slaves and its property as booty

or do you forget that paying to buy people back was costing you 1/6 th of the gross domestic product at the time and did for almost 12 years before they acted

now remember in jeffersons writing too that this would rise again as the enemy as he called islam in his writings , could never be trusted

I'm a well versed student of both Jefferson and Islam

and i'm sorry that even a Australian like me know this is fact

you just dont want it to be so, so say its not ,

this is the side effect of the mental illness known as liberal socialism

1 cure is to show how other in the past with the same views have gone ,
another is reality but many refuse to see it

sadly these cures only work in the early days unless there is a major mental wake up

like realising its not really islamaphobia when they have jumped you a few times trying to stab you have shot up your home and attacked your friends just fior being your friends and a weaker target than you

Jefferson wrote " the light of Faith is mans best guide through the nigh of history"

he was a Christian Deist so it would be the Christian Faith he wrote

Franklin whilst a agnostic wrote too that "the Faith of the people have been the great building blocks within the nation so far"

picking little bits from the words of great men to change how they p[perceived things is spin ,

now without the spin so far this is a gun forum but you'bve posted nothing about guns espoused your personal views as facts and put spin on historical fact and denigrate peoples national anthem just because it dont suit your leftist viewpoint

what the F,n heck do you want here? besides to impose your leftist agenda where it aint wanted?

i suppose your a UAF mutt too ?

[Goose Springsteen]

Originally Posted by jack404

I too am a Deist sir , and if i may . Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was as well ( you should read his veiws of the tripoli agreements he called the US suckers and was correct )and yes at the time the land and its ruler the tripoli caliph where two very differing people , and jefferson did not wish a war with Damascus and bagdad, just to stop the muslims takeing US citizens as slaves and its property as booty

or do you forget that paying to buy people back was costing you 1/6 th of the gross domestic product at the time and did for almost 12 years before they acted

now remember in jeffersons writing too that this would rise again as the enemy as he called islam in his writings , could never be trusted

I'm a well versed student of both Jefferson and Islam

and i'm sorry that even a Australian like me know this is fact

you just dont want it to be so, so say its not ,

this is the side effect of the mental illness known as liberal socialism

1 cure is to show how other in the past with the same views have gone ,
another is reality but many refuse to see it

sadly these cures only work in the early days unless there is a major mental wake up

like realising its not really islamaphobia when they have jumped you a few times trying to stab you have shot up your home and attacked your friends just fior being your friends and a weaker target than you

Jefferson wrote " the light of Faith is mans best guide through the nigh of history"

he was a Christian Deist so it would be the Christian Faith he wrote

Franklin whilst a agnostic wrote too that "the Faith of the people have been the great building blocks within the nation so far"

picking little bits from the words of great men to change how they p[perceived things is spin ,

now without the spin so far this is a gun forum but you'bve posted nothing about guns espoused your personal views as facts and put spin on historical fact and denigrate peoples national anthem just because it dont suit your leftist viewpoint

what the F,n heck do you want here? besides to impose your leftist agenda where it aint wanted?

i suppose your a UAF mutt too ?

I really didn't expect this level of hostility coming from that post Jack, I'm only offering evidence to the contrary. It is a poor thing if a diversity of views is going to be abhorred. I've only been on this forum for a few hours so I think it's a little unfair to hold the fact I've only posted here so far against me.

As I said on another thread I originally ended up on this forum when I was seeing what people thought the relative strengths and weaknesses of the Avro Lancaster were as compared to its contemporaries.

As to being a UAF mutt I'm afraid I'll have to plead ignorance to what exactly the UAF is - would you be so kind as to enlighten me?

As for your hang up with Islam - I agree I really dislike Islam as I see it as probably the most dangerous of all the mainstream faiths out there in the world at the moment. However where we would most likely disagree is that I hold the opinion that any religious viewpoint however apparently benignis inherently dangerous because it is justified on faith which is not a good way to discover what is true because it is by definition to acceptance of something without sufficient evidence.

As for Jefferson himself we can play the quote game all day but I think the fundemental thing we can agree on is that he was not in any sense of the word a conventional Christian - the Jefferson Bible is a clear example of that where all the supernatural parts of the New Testament were removed and he left the parts which he regarded as good moral philosophy. This is something reflected in an 1814 letter to John Adams:

"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

As for your ad hominem attacks on my mental health I can only say that I'd prefer it if with discussed and debated ideas and didn't fling insults.

[jack404]

1 its not the "diversity of view" its you told lies , you picked pieces from larger ones that suit your point even if the entire page from which you plucked warned about the duplicity of his enemies and those who subvert the truth .

again you quote jefferson and in total disregard to his point , his point is MEN have taken something wonderful and cut here and added there and written how men should worship and how much they should pay for the privaledge but very light on why we should worship .. now we have doctrine and rhote i think "short in justice but long in process" was his term , and i agree

you do it for other reasons ..

no matter what you attempt to say you can use Jefferson against the Christian Faith

as for personal attack you come in here tell us we are all not understanding it right and try to sell us lies and distortions and try to justify false facts as divercity of veiw

folks like you got me paying a carbon tax so the sea dont rise and eat a bunch of hime next week..

[Goose Springsteen]

Originally Posted by jack404

1 its not the "diversity of view" its you told lies , you picked pieces from larger ones that suit your point even if the entire page from which you plucked warned about the duplicity of his enemies and those who subvert the truth .

again you quote jefferson and in total disregard to his point , his point is MEN have taken something wonderful and cut here and added there and written how men should worship and how much they should pay for the privaledge but very light on why we should worship .. now we have doctrine and rhote i think "short in justice but long in process" was his term , and i agree

you do it for other reasons ..

no matter what you attempt to say you can use Jefferson against the Christian Faith

as for personal attack you come in here tell us we are all not understanding it right and try to sell us lies and distortions and try to justify false facts as divercity of veiw

folks like you got me paying a carbon tax so the sea dont rise and eat a bunch of hime next week..

Please what lies did I tell? I can honestly tell you that what ever else you may level at me I was not being intentionally dishonest. I am more than open to being proven wrong but I'd rather not have my character pilloried with you claiming that I am being disingenuous.

The point that Jefferson is making is that he feels that the nature of the Gospels is unreliable and instead of taking it all as true on faith he feels that discretion should be shown based on reasoned common sense as to what is moral and what is not and furthermore in regards to his rejection of miracles/the supernatural - what is plausible and what isn't.

I came in here to show that in terms of foundations the US is very much secular (expressed in the Treaty of Tripoli explicitly) in foundation in as much as the government shall make no state religion and shall not give undue favour to one belief over the other. In short that there will be a "wall of separation" between the affairs of the church and the affairs of the state.

As to the matter of climate change I think a cursory look at the world will show you that the climate is changing, however the extent to which it is anthropomorphic is to my understanding still up for question we know historically speaking that the worlds climate has changed numerous times and many of the violently. I think regardless of the distribution of causation it is good form to start investing money in dealing with the consequences of more extreme weather and the effects of rising sea levels that will happen as the worlds bodies of frozen water deplete due to an increase in temperature.

[jack404]

good grief

[ampaterry]

Originally Posted by jack404

good grief

and good riddance

[Old Grump]

Back to topic, a friend of mine was one of the speakers at that Tea Party gathering and she said she still gets goosebumps remembering that rendition.

Maybe some of the founders weren't real religious but they were more Christian than Muslims or atheists. They were smart enough to write in freedom of religion into the constitution and its the weak kneed mealy mouth liberals who have taken Jefferson's words in a letter as gospel and that the state should be free of religion. The brain dead dopes are wrong and every single justice who ever ruled in their favor was wrong. My God doesn't anybody read the constitution anymore. Gotta stop, I'm about to break my damn keyboard.

[Iron Eagle]

Contrary to what anyone in DC or anywhere else thinks, this is a Christian nation. Those good for nothings in DC need to pull their collective heads from their posteriors, and quit giving glory to satan for what they are doing. The Holy Bible was the only textbook in the beginning of this country. The reason most of the garbage is going on here is because God is no longer on the throne of this country. If He was, none of this crap would be going on! IN GOD WE TRUST! Not in anyone or anything else.

[jphipps]

Honestly Jack, you do the same thing as Goose. Using specific quotes to support your cause...or your argument. It is true that many of our founding father's were Deists. It's also true that many were Christian. Either way, freedom of religion is a brilliant right.

I believe that Goose's initial argument was agains the statement that "The liberals are constantly trying to write God out of our history." That is an absurd notion. It's like saying that all liberals throughout history are atheist and all conservatives throughout history are rightious Christians.

Whether our Constitution is Christian based or philosophically morally based, doesn't matter to me. Probalbly a mixture of both.....do Christians have a monopoly on morals and common sense?

One thing I do believe is that our Founding Father's (our's not your's) knew where to draw the line when it comes to Faith based law and Common Sense law. Quote all you want, flame all you want.......but you seem to be unbending and accusatory in your debate, which isn't a sign of great intelligence. Anyone can study, but interpretation and application is subjective......consideration and tolerance of dissenting beliefs opionion must be considered....or you don't know it all.

[jphipps]

I expect that post might get me kicked off here but it seemed contrary to what I thought this board was about. We can learn from our differences gentlemen. We would all be better people.

[ampaterry]

You are correct.

[RunningOnMT]

I posted a link, but apparently no one chose to watch the video. It's sad to have to accept that what you have so long believed was true is in fact a lie. The vast majority of the founding fathers were NOT Christians. Jefferson liked the moral teachings of Jesus but rejected his deity, the virgin birth, His resurrection, and all of his miracles. That is not a Christian by any stretch. Others founders held similar beliefs. There were however many colonists who were Christian and in the sense that those europeons who established the colonies were Christian, you could say that we had Christian beginnings, but the United States of America was in no way established as a Christian nation, nor were the vast majority of the founders Christian. Barton has lost any scholarly credibility he may have had by intentional manipulating the facts. All he has done was blown sunshine up Christians butts in order to sell books.

[jack404]

i'd like to discuss morals and non Christians with you but the person who officiates these events is away today with herpes flare up , his stand in has AIDS and probably wont be back and we've yet to get a replacement as its a GLBT priority position and we've got ton get 6 lawyers to inspect it before we publish it in case we offend some freak

without the judeao Christian ethics and morals we are screwed ...

you want to leave morals to humanists ? after the top guy died from his friends putting bottle where bottles aint supposed to go ???

sheeeesh

[ampaterry]

I did not watch it for two reasons, ROMT.

1. I have zero faith in anything on Youtube.
2. I have had these discussions ad nausuim in other forums, have seen every shred of evidence for the viewpoint, and have found better evidence to the contrary of that position.

[jack404]

ROMT i did watch it

but what should i believe , jeffersons own words and instructions , ( he was a prolific writer ) or some cut and paste effort on his life by someone who had Lord only knows what agenda ??

i know you think i went short on a couple folks here today , so take a look at the opening of the others like this guy the past couple days

they'll open with these questions then when folks are answering they'll swing switch and make everyone look stupid .. they look like one thing and be another

played that game 3-4 time the past couple days

if all they wish to do is play this game whereby they can trick someone on a play on words so they feel smarter ok but all of em needing to feel smarter at once ? we aint a obozo support groups ..

[Double D]

I can smell a liberal from miles away. I know you continue to debate these idiots Jack and thats your prerogative, but I can smell their nonsense from a long way off and wont waste my breath. Kudos to Terry for a job well done. Without swift action, we could end up just like any other website out there. Thanks.

[ampaterry]

For the founding fathers debate, try these quotes, all thoroughly documented:

http://christianity.about.com/od/ind...ingfathers.htm

[RunningOnMT]

If you'd have watched the video link you'd have seen that many of the quotes used by people like Barton were what have been cut from longer documents. Just as in understnding the Bible, hearing the verses before and after, or the entire chapter is essential to clear understanding. Not looking at evidence of something you don't want to believe is intellectual dishonesty

I know what you all want to believe. I'd like to believe the same thing, but I prefer the hard truth to a pleasant lie. Research looking at the great bulk of evidence reveals that the most prominent among the founding fathers did not have a saving faith in Jesus Christ. Look up Jefferson's Bible. He took a King James Bible and edited out any scripture pertaining to Christ's diety, the virgin birth, His miracles, or His resurrection. Merely acknowledging that Jesus Christ "once" lived does not qualify one as a Christian. The Bible says even the demons do that. In fact they do more because they know He is God. Adams, Franklin, and Jefferson didn't. Look at some of the letters between those three for an eye opener.