H&R .32 Hammerless - trying to repair - Need Help

[Dutchboy]

I just purchased an H&R .32 break action, hammerless revolver, and I think it needs some repair. I managed to get most of it apart, but I need some help about where to go from here. Any advice would be appreciated.

The gun: The revolver has a 3" barrel. It's nickle with a blued trigger and guard. The top of the barrel has Harrington and Richardson Arms on one line and Worchester Mass USA on a second line. The text is centered for both lines, but the address line is shorter than the H&R line. The serial number under the top strap is 208618, and there's an "H" stamped there, too. The serial number is also on the bottom of the frame grip, both on the bottom and under the grip. The last three digits are on the cylinder and ejector.

Problem #1: The firing pin never retracts. When the revolver is at rest, the hammer pushes the firing pin out of the frame and into the primer. When the trigger is pulled back, the hammer retracts, but the firing pin stays forward. The firing pin floats at this point. If you push it back, it will stay back. But there's nothing that retracts it to get it out of the way when the cylinder tries to rotate. That does not seem right, and I can't figure out how to remove the firing pin. I've removed the cross pin in that area, but the firing pin still won't come out.

Problem #2: While I was taking things apart, trying to figure out why the firing pin acted strangely, I noticed that a piece seemed to be missing from the back of the trigger guard. In all of the pictures that I've found on the internet, there's a piece of metal at the back of the trigger guard that looks like it pivots. I think it's the sear, but this gun fires double action, without that piece. So, I'm confused. Why would someone remove that piece, and then put the gun back together again? Maybe the hammerless versions don't need that piece?

I've included some pics that show the firing pin area, and the pieces around the hammer and trigger. Thanks for the help. I would like to see if I can get this old gun working again.

[Jim K]

"I think it needs some repair."

Boy is that an understatement. Might I suggest that you stop wasting time and/or money and call that one a total loss. It has been "fixed" so many times that IMHO it is beyond repair, and if it were restored to firing conditon it would still be worthless and quite possibly dangerous to fire.

Sorry, but that is the way it is.

Jim

[jack404]

gotta agree the metal shown in the pic at the rear of the FP is ruined , it would be a big job to get it out and replaced right and you could buy a great rifle and scope for the same expense

a new frame would be way easier and cheaper , even here with the paperwork and all

Sorry eh

[fuzebox40]

Hello Dutchboy, what a fine specimen it is! Don't feel bad, I have one that's worse off than that. Well I have to agree with Jim and Jack but I'll try to answer your question. I think you have a New Model Small Frame Hammerless. You can find some parts out there, try Numrich. I'm not sure on this but I believe there is a plug forward of the firing pin retained by a through pin that holds it in. Once the through pin is removed I'm not sure how you would get it out other than to drive it out from behind with a puch seated squarly on the firing pin itself. If I'm wrong, somebody please chime in.
You need to clean up the dings in the metal first to give it a fighting chance of popping loose. In any case you simply need a new firing pin spring if you can get to it, as I'm sure you may have guessed.

I'm afraid I haven't had a hamerless with a sear on it and I'm not sure why it needs it in this case but you are correct in that it is the sear that fits in that location.
Good luck getting it functional. I always prefer to have a functional weapon even if it's retired from service.

[jack404]

on that model it should be a plunge cup that holds the FP and spring yeah

i'll make that in your pic with my worries

is this a crack ? use your pics to see better my copy is out

[jack404]

to fix this you'd have to bore out the hinge replace it repin it replace the top lock set point ( mill off and weld complete replacement ) and get your alignment correct , and go from there as alignment affects a lot of this and causes stresses when its not aligned .. you could weld reface the entire platten face then machine to grade again and redrill and mill as required , or buy a new frame ..

but because the top lock is weak its allowed movement and each shot has hammered the platten and hinge and forced it down even more

its been abused , badly , sorry

restore it to hang on the wall only is my suggestion ( or scrap )

[Jim K]

That area around and below the back of the firing pin appears to be a weld. I suspect the frame broke out there and someone welded up that area to keep the firing pin from falling out. Welding on cast iron is not always successful, and yet another reason to avoid firing the gun, should it be otherwise repairable.

Jim

[Dutchboy]

Thank you for the feedback, gentlemen. I'll try and go through your comments here:

- My goal for this revolver is to gain some enjoyment from it. I like old guns. I like to figure out how they were built, how they were supposed to work, and why they were built. With a gun like this one, I often wonder, "If this gun could talk, what stories would it tell me?" I even like to load up some .32 S&W cases with black powder and shoot them once in a while. I have a few "nice" old guns, but those guns seem to just sit in the dark in the safe. I don't work with them much because I don't want to damage them. They don't get shot very much. They are pretty, but kind of sad. However, these old, beat up warhorses get tossed in the range bag and they follow me around. I've got the ugliest Smith and Wesson in .32 S&W with a horrible pitted barrel, but it will put almost every round inside a playing card at 10 yards with black powder. Lots of fun! It's these old beaters that actually still have a life. I don't care much if they get a little more rust, or just one more scratch. Heck, if they break, I get the chance to tear them apart and try and fix them. That's fun, too. Which brings me back to this H&R that you gentlemen are helping me with.

- Regarding Jack's comments: 1. There's no crack there. It must just be an artifact of my poor photography. 2. The thin area at the bottom of that slot looks like a machining flaw. When that slot was cut, it looks like the guy let the tooling slip, and it made one, extra, sharply angled cut that should not be there. 3. I don't think the damage from the back cylinder pin was caused by things shifting during firing, at least not with the gun in it's current condition. The frame, latch, and cylinder lock-up is pretty tight. It can't move enough to make those marks. I think that damage came from the repeated opening and closing of the action. The cylinder pin is clean and un-marked. I think its metal is just a lot harder than the metal in the frame. The numbers all match; so no one swapped out the cylinder or extractor. I think the harder part wore out the softer part.

- For Jack and Jim's comment about the back by the firing pin. You're right. It looks bad back there. But, I don't think it's a weld or a repair. Jim said that these frames were cast iron. I didn't know that. It looks to me like those are all casting marks. It's got the look of never being machined flat in that area. It looks like a outside edge of a cast iron frying pan.

Regarding the firing pin: So to remove it, you think I have to push out that plug toward the cylinder. That makes sense. On some pictures I've seen two holes in that plug, like for a spanner wrench. There's no sign of those holes on this gun. But I was concerned that the thing might be threaded somehow. My big question is, "Are you sure there's supposed to be a spring in there?" Was it originally designed to have a floating firing pin instead? It will be a pain to get that plug out of there, and if there's no broken spring in there to replace, I would rather leave it alone. Numrich's schematic shows all kinds of variations on firing pins and plugs, and I can't figure it out.

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/...spx?catid=7951

Regarding the missing sear: I would love to know if the sear was originally supposed to be there, or not. Pictures of other, similar guns show the sear installed. But why would someone take the gun apart, pull out the sear, and then put it all back together? My second question is, "What would the sear do, if it were in there?" Numrich calls it a "Rebounder (Sear)". What does that mean? Is the missing sear the reason that the hammer pushes out the firing pin when the gun is at rest? If the sear were there, would it hold the hammer away from the back of the firing pin?

Thanks for your wisdom and advice.

[fuzebox40]

Originally Posted by Dutchboy

Regarding the firing pin: So to remove it, you think I have to push out that plug toward the cylinder. That makes sense. On some pictures I've seen two holes in that plug, like for a spanner wrench. There's no sign of those holes on this gun. But I was concerned that the thing might be threaded somehow. My big question is, "Are you sure there's supposed to be a spring in there?" Was it originally designed to have a floating firing pin instead? It will be a pain to get that plug out of there, and if there's no broken spring in there to replace, I would rather leave it alone. Numrich's schematic shows all kinds of variations on firing pins and plugs, and I can't figure it out.

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/...spx?catid=7951

Regarding the missing sear: I would love to know if the sear was originally supposed to be there, or not. Pictures of other, similar guns show the sear installed. But why would someone take the gun apart, pull out the sear, and then put it all back together? My second question is, "What would the sear do, if it were in there?" Numrich calls it a "Rebounder (Sear)". What does that mean? Is the missing sear the reason that the hammer pushes out the firing pin when the gun is at rest? If the sear were there, would it hold the hammer away from the back of the firing pin?

Thanks for your wisdom and advice.

Yes it has a firing pin spring. BTW, if it didn't, the firing pin could fall in the way of the next cartridge jamming rotation. The reason you see pics of revolvers with 2 holes it that location is because in those cases it is not a plug, it's a threaded nut. And you mentioned that had already removed a keeper pin for the plug, which the nuts don't have.

I have the same line of thinking as you reguarding the "rebounder", to hold the hammer in place and off of the pin while at rest and acting as a safety feature as well. As far as why someone would remomve it then reassemble the gun, it's done all the time, to rob parts (as a parts gun) to repair another.

[fuzebox40]

Also like I said, it might help to clean up the nicks with a little sanding tool around the perimeter of the plug in order to allow it come free, but if that is neccisary don't sand down the whole surface as that will create headspace.

Personaly I think most of the rough metal we're seeing is simply the work left behind by barbarians.

[Dutchboy]

Originally Posted by fuzebox40

Also like I said, it might help to clean up the nicks with a little sanding tool around the perimeter of the plug in order to allow it come free, but if that is neccisary don't sand down the whole surface as that will create headspace.

Personaly I think most of the rough metal we're seeing is simply the work left behind by barbarians.

HaHaHaHa. I'll do my best to avoid being a barbarian and to leave it better than I found it.

I just ordered a firing pin spring and a Rebounder (sear) from Numrich. We'll see what happens.

Thanks for the help.

[Jim K]

With the cross pin removed, tapping the rear of the firing pin should drive the pin and the firing pin retainer forward and out of the frame. But that frame is so battered that the retainer might not be able to move and the result would be to batter the firing pin and make things worse.

Jim

[Dutchboy]

Success!

First, I took the tip of a very sharp needle file and repeatedly traced the perimeter of the firing pin retainer until I was sure that there was no peened-over metal that was locking the plug into the frame socket. Then, I let it soak in penetrating oil while I enjoyed an adult beverage. Thus fortified for the task at hand, I used a punch and a hammer to push out the firing pin, and the firing pin retainer with it, just like you gentlemen said. But it took about 25 strikes of increasing force until it broke free. I was very concerned that I was going to screw it up.

There was a firing pin spring inside, just like you said. But, the spring had jumped over the lip of the firing pin retainer, and was fully pushed inside of the plug. It was trapped in that space, and it could not exert any force on the firing pin. I don't think the old spring can be reused. It's too narrow to be held by the lip of the firing pin retainer. It just slips past and buries itself back in the plug again. I'll put on the new spring when it arrives from Numrich.



While I was cleaning up the parts, I noticed a curiosity. The serial number for this gun ends in 618. That number is all over the revolver (Two places on the frame, the top strap, the cylinder, the extractor.) But, the trigger guard has 617 stamped on it. It's mismatched by one digit from the rest of the gun. Do you suppose that there was a little quality control problem back in Worcester, MA, in the H and R factory? Looks like the original gun builder mixed up the trigger guards between the two guns he was building at the time, and 618 got the trigger guard for 617.

[fuzebox40]

The other fellers might be able to give educated input on your serial number.
Definitely hold out for the new spring though. Keep in mind that sometimes new springs are sent out longer than needed as they are often useable for several makes and models, to be trimmed by the user to fit his personal application. Too long and you'll have not enough travel, too short and... like she said.

Keep us updated.

[Jim K]

Yes, the factory might have goofed, or one of the legion of "fixers" who has worked on that gun might have put on a replacement guard that, by coincidence, has the last three digits one off from the last three of the serial.

Jim

[Dutchboy]

Numrich parts arrived today, and I made some progress:

Firing pin issue: I installed the new spring, and after a few firing cycles it developed the same problem as the original spring. It slipped inside that firing pin plug and stopped retracting the firing spring. Not knowing what else to do, I left one spring inside the plug, and slipped the other spring over the firing pin. I just used both of them. Strangely enough, that has worked. When the hammer drops, the firing pin flies out. When the hammer pulls back, the firing pin retracts and lets the cylinder rotate.

Missing Sear: I convinced myself that the new part from Numrich does not fit this model gun. The sear is just too long. When I installed it, it blocked the trigger from coming more than half way back. I uploaded some pics. The Numrich part number is 268950. http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/...spx?catid=7951

Please correct me if I'm missing something, but I can't see where this sear fits this gun. Any ideas?

Thanks!

[Jim K]

A look at the Gun Parts catalog seems to indicate that the sear is right, but the trigger in that gun is not correct. I suspect that a "fixer" put in a trigger from another model, then had to take out the sear because it kept the trigger from working.

Jim

[45Auto]

In working on H&R revolvers, I have noticed many little variations in parts.

That little part is not a real sear of any kind. It is intended to rebound the hammer away from the firing pin so that the pin will retract back into the frame when the trigger is released. Some gunsmiths have left them out because the trigger return spring might not be strong enough to work the rebound. Given that the replacement rebound lever from Numirc is too long, it will be necessary to file it to fit. Study the surfaces and work with care. First fit it to the trigger so that the trigger can work back and forth with the rebound in place. Then fit it to the hammer.

[45Auto]

About that odd number on the trigger guard. Have you checked under the top strap and inside the barrel hinge to see if there are any other numbers? Although it's rare, I have seen a few revolvers with two sets of numbers. Otherwise, I would suppose it's a factory error.

[Dutchboy]

After reading your posts, I went back and studied the parts for a while, and I think I can see how it's supposed to work, but I'm not 100% sure. Does it go like this?

With the trigger pulled back, and the hammer fallen fully forward, that little pocket at the back of the trigger pushes the rebounder up. The rebounder pivots, and the little notch on the other end is pulled back and away from the hammer.

As the trigger is released, the trigger return spring pushes up on the front pocket, and rotates the trigger forward. That trigger rotation pushes the end of the rebounder down, which causes the notch on the other end of the rebounder to grab the opposing notch on the hammer and pull it a little bit back from the firing pin.

How did I do? Is that how it is supposed to work?

Regarding the numbers. The revolver has matching numbers on the frame, under the top strap, and on the extractor. I don't see any numbers around the hinge, but I didn't take anything apart there, either. Everything there is working okay; so I left it alone.

[45Auto]

Dutchboy: You got it right, that is exactly how the rebound lever works.

[Jim K]

That part was called the sear by several companies because it serves the same purpose as a sear in a half-cock notch by keeping the hammer back to retract the firing pin for loading.

Jim

[Dutchboy]

Well, I filed on that new rebounder for hours, but I didn't accomplish anything. There was no way to make it fit the trigger. By the time it was short enough to allow the trigger to retract, it couldn't be made to have the proper shape to catch correctly on the back of the trigger and lift up. I couldn't find a way to get there from here.

After giving up on that end of the rebounder, I looked at the sear end. I soon realized that it was made too short to engage with its mating notch on the hammer. You can't fit what don't reach! It was time to clean up and put everything back together.

The rebounder adventure was a failure. But on the plus side, I took that revolver apart and back together a hundred times to check on my filing progress. So, I can now take apart an H&R .32 new model hammerless with my eyes closed, and I'm very familiar with every piece of the action. That's worth something.

I think I'm done with this revolver for now. I've got the firing pin problem fixed; so the gun will function again. It just needs to have an empty chamber kept under the firing pin, which is how this revolver should be handled anyway. That rebounder would not have added much.

Thank you, everyone, for your help and advice with this little project. If I ever shoot this thing, I'll post a range report. But, I've got to tell you that his gun has one of the worst DA trigger pulls that you can imagine. It will be no joy to shoot.

[Jim K]

I still think the rebound lever didn't fit because the trigger is not the right one.

I guess your learning curve has been of value, so your time and money have not been wasted. But I'll stick by what I said in Post #2.

Jim