The Bible regarding life at conception

[45Auto]

RunningOnMT: I'm here to learn from the point of view of other people, not hear my views repeated back to me. So, if you don't agree with something I wrote, I'm fine with that. Nothing personal.

[RunningOnMT]

I saw nothing in my comments that appeared to be repeating your views back to you, only a rebuttal to the opinions you expressed.

Let me try one last time with a very simple. yet I believe, profound argument.

Abortion kills the fetus...correct?

Then there had to be a life there to kill.

If one keeps going back earlier and earlier in a pregnancy, there has to be life there otherwise it wouldn't develope and grow, be born, grow up, age, and die. These are all stages of the life cycle. To destroy it at any one of these stages is murder.

So do a regression back and ask yourself "When was there no life?" Before conception.

[CampingJosh]

Originally Posted by RunningOnMT

I saw nothing in my comments that appeared to be repeating your views back to you, only a rebuttal to the opinions you expressed.

Let me try one last time with a very simple. yet I believe, profound argument.

Abortion kills the fetus...correct?

Then there had to be a life there to kill.

If one keeps going back earlier and earlier in a pregnancy, there has to be life there otherwise it wouldn't develope and grow, be born, grow up, age, and die. These are all stages of the life cycle. To destroy it at any one of these stages is murder.

So do a regression back and ask yourself "When was there no life?" Before conception.

ROMT;

I think you're having trouble actually seeing the position of the pro-choice movement. They're not saying that killing a person early enough doesn't count as murder. They're saying that the fetus isn't a person, so killing it can't be murder.
The argument isn't whether killing a baby is murder. The argument is whether a fetus is a human.

I think their position is horrifically incorrect, but let's not go pretending that they're trying to pass off something they believe to be murder as OK.

Devil's Advocate (NOTE: This is not necessarily representative of my personal beliefs)

Yes, they believe that an abortion does kill a fetus. And they believe that a fetus may--eventually--turn into a human being. But they don't believe that killing the potential for a person is the same thing as killing a person.
Why can't we go back before conception? A fetus is a potential person, but so are an egg and sperm that come together during a sexual act. Isn't a condom, which stops that potential person from becoming a person, very similar to an abortion, at least in this aspect? What is the significant difference?

We intentionally kill all kinds of things all the time. Animals, bacteria, cancers, etc. Why shouldn't a fetus be on the list? Having a child is far more inconvenient than having, say, a leech or an infection of some kind.

[Bobcat58]

I'm new here and I may be butting in where I'm not wanted, BUT after reading that last remark I just had to help the one that asked if destroying the egg or the sperm that's in the condom, wouldn't be the same thing as an abortion. Let me put it very simple so anyone could understand. You have your sugar, flavoring, flour, and eggs in your kitchen. By themselves they are just what they are nothing different. But, when you put them together put them in the oven it's a cake. It doesn't matter if it's still semi liquid it's still a cake, it may not look like a cake, and it may not feel like a cake, but it's STILL a cake. Mom never told me to walk easy in the kitchen so I wouldn't make the sugar fall, or the flour fall, once it was all mixed together it was a cake and she always told me that if I did, I'd make her cake fall. Sperm by it's self is just a cell and an egg if not used destroys it's self, but once the sperm mixes with the egg it's already started the process so it's a human, a person, a living being. If the abortion clinics weren't afraid these girls and women would change their mind if they had to see what the their child looked like, letting them see all of it's little parts like it's little fingers, toes, eyes and mouth, even if it don't look exactly like you and me yet, they would decide it was a little person too and not have the abortion causing the clinic to lose a lot of their money. They even know it's a living person too but they're hooked on that almighty dollar.

[carver]

Originally Posted by Bobcat58

I'm new here and I may be butting in where I'm not wanted, BUT after reading that last remark I just had to help the one that asked if destroying the egg or the sperm that's in the condom, wouldn't be the same thing as an abortion. Let me put it very simple so anyone could understand. You have your sugar, flavoring, flour, and eggs in your kitchen. By themselves they are just what they are nothing different. But, when you put them together put them in the oven it's a cake. It doesn't matter if it's still semi liquid it's still a cake, it may not look like a cake, and it may not feel like a cake, but it's STILL a cake. Mom never told me to walk easy in the kitchen so I wouldn't make the sugar fall, or the flour fall, once it was all mixed together it was a cake and she always told me that if I did, I'd make her cake fall. Sperm by it's self is just a cell and an egg if not used destroys it's self, but once the sperm mixes with the egg it's already started the process so it's a human, a person, a living being. If the abortion clinics weren't afraid these girls and women would change their mind if they had to see what the their child looked like, letting them see all of it's little parts like it's little fingers, toes, eyes and mouth, even if it don't look exactly like you and me yet, they would decide it was a little person too and not have the abortion causing the clinic to lose a lot of their money. They even know it's a living person too but they're hooked on that almighty dollar.

Welcome to the forum, and you've made a good first post!

[jack404]

i've asked that question myself , i've come to the idea its after the egg is fetilised and its taken and the first split occurs that its a person , not before , before then it truly is "potential" but thats all , a pile of lead coal brass and sulpher is potentially a bullet but i'd not call it that yet

[sub-moa]

I have always felt in my heart that abortion is wrong and is murder. I was a very young teenager when I first heard of it. No one had to convince me or talk me into the idea. I would say most, if not all, women who have had an abortion eventually come to realize this and wrestle emotionally with what they have done. I have known women and men, who have urged their partners, to terminate pregnancies, cry at the thought of having killed their first child that they thought they weren’t ready for. Even those who won’t admit it fight with their own conscious to allow them to cope.
Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

[45Auto]

Abortion is tragic.

While I appreciate his ideas, I don't agree with RunningOnMT. At least in the early stage, I don't think ending a potential human being is murder, but it's not right either.

At least in the first trimester, I think it's up to the woman to make her private decision and then she can live with the baby or live with the guilt. It's a free country.

I think that in the last trimester the Govt. can step in and say 'no' to abortion. By that time the process has proceeded to close end it.

For those who love life there is another issue:
One thing we know from history, if abortion is not legal it will happen anyway. Lots of young women's lives and potential human lives will be lost which might have been saved with rational medical regulations. Much better than a quack in a back room.

[ampaterry]

Originally Posted by 45Auto

Abortion is tragic.

.
.
.

For those who love life there is another issue:
One thing we know from history, if abortion is not legal it will happen anyway. Lots of young women's lives and potential human lives will be lost which might have been saved with rational medical regulations. Much better than a quack in a back room.

This particular argument just doesn't work with me.
Carried to it's logical conclusion, one can say:
We know recreational drugs are being used anyway, so we should legalize them so they can be taxed and their purity controlled.

Fact is, many people do not use recreational drugs largely because they are illegal.
Back alley abortions are very difficult to track, true, but I doubt very much if anyone thinks that every woman getting a legal abortion today would resort to a back alley one if they were not legal.

I love life - I have a huge respect for the sanctity of life - and making abortions illegal saves many more lives than it costs.

[jack404]

Sadly human nature is such that people will kill for different things , be it to cover a lie , to steal , to cover up theft , or even just to be important , but they'll kill things so they dont become inconvenient to the killer , and this is what abortion is , make it legal and folks will do it , make it ill legal and they have this extra layer of responcability , life in precious ,but currently life is disposable

make it not so and things will change as people them realise its wrong .. but only a few will not care and goahead , but folks murder every day when its illegal ..

[ampaterry]

There was a lady that was a family member. She and her husband planned a nice vacation, which they both looked forward to.
She accidentally became pregnant.
She had an abortion STRICTLY so their vacation would not be spoiled.
She is dead now, as is her husband.
They left no heirs.
But she had her vacation . . .

[jack404]

thats short sighted ... and a darwin award right there , writing yourself out of the gene pool

[45Auto]

How many of those who favor making abortion illegal are also in favor of the death penalty?

Given how many people are convicted of capitol crimes they did not do, it is clear that many people are put to death by the State for no fault of their own. Thus, if you 'love life' the death penalty should also be wrong. What do you think?

[gvw3]

I have 6 kids. 3 grand kids and lots of nieces and nephews. I think abortion is wrong. I know other folks don't feel as I do. I also know God has a plan for all of us. People that have or allow an abortion have to live with this for the rest of their life. Maybe that was God's plan....

[tcox4freedom]

Originally Posted by 45Auto

How many of those who favor making abortion illegal are also in favor of the death penalty?

Given how many people are convicted of capitol crimes they did not do, it is clear that many people are put to death by the State for no fault of their own. Thus, if you 'love life' the death penalty should also be wrong. What do you think?

Protecting an innocent child while it's still in the womb and carrying out justice for a criminal act are two ENTIRELY different things!

(Apples & Oranges)

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[ampaterry]

I gotta vote with Tim on this one.

With our modern system of justice, I doubt very much if anyone is put to death that is not guilty of some heinous crime of violence.
But let's play statistics, and say that only 99.9% of those given the death penalty deserve it. I don't believe this, but just for the sake of argument let's say it IS a bit under 100%.
So .1% of the people killed should not have been.

0% of the babies killed are guilty of any crime.
So 100% of them killed should not have been.

NO to abortion and YES to capital punishment seems a pretty clear and moral choice to me.

[jack404]

hear hear !

[RunningOnMT]

Amen.

[45Auto]

In fact, the false conviction rate is much higher than 1%.

It's interesting that so many folks who don't trust the Govt to do anything right, seem to think that the Govt. get's convictions right 99% of the time?

[CampingJosh]

Originally Posted by 45Auto

In fact, the false conviction rate is much higher than 1%.

It's interesting that so many folks who don't trust the Govt to do anything right, seem to think that the Govt. get's convictions right 99% of the time?

I trust the jury branch of our government more than any other. And it's not even close.

[tcox4freedom]

Originally Posted by 45Auto

In fact, the false conviction rate is much higher than 1%.

It's interesting that so many folks who don't trust the Govt to do anything right, seem to think that the Govt. get's convictions right 99% of the time?

I'm sure you have the stats to back that up.

Can you post a link so the rest of us can become enlightened to the truth about the false conviction rate that leads to innocent people being put to death?

All we need is the stats that say such & such percent of people who were executed were wrongly convicted and were innocent.

-

[ampaterry]

Originally Posted by 45Auto

In fact, the false conviction rate is much higher than 1%.

It's interesting that so many folks who don't trust the Govt to do anything right, seem to think that the Govt. get's convictions right 99% of the time?

I don't trust the government to do anything 99% correct.

But we are talking about people being convicted of a crime as decided by 12 of their peers not by the government. The anti-capital punishment folks have thrown up so many roadblocks to convictions that I do not believe ANY innocent person has received the death penalty for many, many years.

23 were executed so far in 2012 here in the USA.
43 in 2011.
I would wager none of them was innocent.

[45Auto]

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/articl...ns-3699960.php

http://www.illinois.gov/pressrelease...d=3&recnum=359

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Cont...onerations.php

http://www.innocenceproject.org/?gcl...FQZtKgodVGvmhQ

As you examine the above, notice that only a few people can be exhonerated through DNA testing, this option is not available in every case. And yet the same systemic problems exist throughout the system. Problems which almost ensure wrongful convictions will take place along with convictions of those who are actualy guilty.

[ampaterry]

Originally Posted by 45Auto

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/articl...ns-3699960.php

http://www.illinois.gov/pressrelease...d=3&recnum=359

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Cont...onerations.php

http://www.innocenceproject.org/?gcl...FQZtKgodVGvmhQ

As you examine the above, notice that only a few people can be exhonerated through DNA testing, this option is not available in every case. And yet the same systemic problems exist throughout the system. Problems which almost ensure wrongful convictions will take place along with convictions of those who are actualy guilty.

I read all the links.
Number of innocent people executed:
zero.

Due to lack of any evidence to the contrary, I stand by my claim that no one has in recent times been executed wrongfully.

Have some people who were later released made it to death row?
Yes.
And there they languish - often for YEARS - as the wheels of justice continue to grind on their cases, and appeal after appeal is filed.

[45Auto]

Terry, I think you missed this one:

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Cont...d_in_Texas.php


Good men & women of this board: To let our Govt. kill a few innocent Americans to get at the guilty cannot be reconsiled with love of life and liberty.