Bible question

[user]

Originally Posted by ampaterry

...Then let us look at Christs sacrifice.
We are told that he suffered for our sins.
This raises the question; did he suffer for a sin which I managed to not commit?
Or did he suffer too little because I commited more sins than anticipated?...

Like most logic problems, the issue is illusory - he died "for" our sins, in the original language, could have (probably should have) been translated, "he died because we are sinful". I.e., it is our sinful character that caused us to torture and kill that guy. In other words, it's not about atonement or expiation. Shame, fear, and guilt are not a part of the liberation of Christ. Instead, the crucifixion is about love: no matter what we, eaters of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, did to that guy, his only response to us was a reflection of God's unconditional love, compassion, and mercy. He's up there dying on the cross in agony, and he's got compassion for us, because "we know not what we do"!!! As Paul said, the "chierographon", journal, book of misdeeds and demerits, or whatever, has been nailed to the cross and no longer exists. Daddy is simply not keeping track of "sin" - that's Santa's job ("He sees you when you're sleeping...", and, "He's making a list, checking it twice...").

Jesus himself states his understanding of the events of that day by incorporating Psalm 22 by the use of the first line, "My God, my God, oh, why have you forsaken me?". And if you look toward the last part of that psalm, you find that he knows the purpose of his intentional act of submission to the will of man: a generation yet unborn shall hear of Your saving grace.

It worked, didn't it?

[76Highboy]

Originally Posted by RunningOnMT

There's no debate on one point. The Bible says on the seventh day GOD rested. So clearly the highlighted comment can't be true.

Ya I know, that is a typo. I meant 8th, or after the 8th. Sorry.

[ampaterry]

An old question is "Can God creat a rock so big that even He cannot lift it?"

I believe the answer is no; it is not possible for God to be limited by his own creation.
And this extends to time and space.
He did not create a distance so far that he cannot span it.
And He did not create our perception of the passage of time and in so doing trap himself into that same linear progression.

God is omnipresent; and that is taken as being everywhere at once.
Considering time as the fourth dimension, it would be proper to say that He is everywhen at once as well.

[RunningOnMT]

Originally Posted by ampaterry

An old question is "Can God creat a rock so big that even He cannot lift it?"

I believe the answer is no; it is not possible for God to be limited by his own creation.
And this extends to time and space.
He did not create a distance so far that he cannot span it.
And He did not create our perception of the passage of time and in so doing trap himself into that same linear progression.

God is omnipresent; and that is taken as being everywhere at once.
Considering time as the fourth dimension, it would be proper to say that He is everywhen at once as well.

+1 The infinite is a tough concept for finite beings to comprehend. I thought of a way to demonstrate that graphically. This might help someone.

I think of it like a standard target, with a bullseye and concentric rings around it. Events are illustrated by radial lines extending out from the center point like rays of light. To order these events we start at some arbitray point, say 12 o'clock, then count the intervals between one ray and the next going around the circle clockwise. That's how we see events occuring chronologically.

Now each of these rays would extend out to the same single ring we call infinity. God sees all events as simultaneous events in eternity where we see them incrementally. If that makes sense.

[ampaterry]

Makes perfect sense, ROMT - and thank you for another illustration of this concept - which is, absolutely, difficult to comprehend by beings such as we are, trapped into this linear progression -

[KenV]

What a fascinating discussion. Can I join in?

I believe that man's spirit (often called "soul" but I believe erroneously so) was created long before the earth. I believe our spirits were much the same as the bodies we have in life, but without flesh and bones. I believe that in this state we had free will and made choices, and were male and female, and lived "in heaven" with our heavenly father. This condition was wonderful, but limited. We could not really progress and make significant choices because being in heaven, there were no bad choices to be made. How could we learn while staying safely in the nest?

So the earth was created where our spirits would sojourn in a mortal body of flesh and bones for a lifetime, all the while confronted by many good AND bad choices. It was an opportunity to learn by experience. But our Father knew us and knew we would ALL make some bad choices while on Earth. ALL of us, without exception.

And since God is perfectly just we could never return to him and thus we would certainly be lost forever. UNLESS there was a mediator provided. The mediator must be an individual who was both willing AND able to pay the demands of justice for us, thereby enabling God's mercy to have claim on us and redeem us from death and sin. Thus we were provided a saviour, whom we know as Jesus Christ.

I believe the heavens and earth were organized in six creative periods (called "days" in many translations, but I believe not literally 24 hour days) and that mankind was the crown jewel of the SIXTH creative period. And I further believe that this was not the first Earth so created, nor will it be the last.

Is the above wierd? Or oddly familiar?

[ampaterry]

Not weird to me, Ken - I have studied Mormonism for years.

You may (or may not) know that the idea of the spirit pre-existing the physical body is not unique to LDS; it is also in Jewish mysticism - Kabala.

I don't find the belief to be disturbing in any way, not contrary to any of my personal beliefs, but rather something that is outside the scope of the Bible writing.

[tcox4freedom]

Originally Posted by bountyh

+1 Correct.

Adam was created to make the bloodline that would eventually bring Christ.

Originally Posted by user

This thread ignores the alternate story in which Lilith preceded Eve.

But seriously, the true self (a gnostic concept to which I think Paul subscribes) which is beyond time/space is an aspect of the Divine Self, and the recognition of the fact of that relationship gives one the power to become a son of God. Jesus showed us how. "And to all who believeth in him" means to ascribe credibility to him, not merely to believe he existed. "For even the demons do that, and shudder." Since each of us, in that context, is neither created, nor made, and "of one being with The Father", it doesn't make sense to talk about humanity having been created on the sixth day. "Before Abraham was, I am." applies to each of us. It's the realization of the true self (that's where the gnosticism comes in) that's the key. After all, Jesus didn't say, "worship me", he said, "follow me."

I have actually heard both of these theories before. I'm not sure I believe them. But, I do think they may help to explain Neanderthal & ancient man. (While not necessarily taking away from the TRUTH we find in scripture.)

I've heard the possibility that God did create mankind before the fall of Satan & angels. Once those angels were cast out they came to earth & bred with early humans. This caused God destroy ancient man; and create another line of humans we know as modern man. (Adam was supposedly the first of these men & Eve was the first of these women.)

Like I said, I'm not 100% sold on this theory. But, it could help explain an older Earth, ancient man & dinosaurs. So, I think it could be worth further study.


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One thing I have come to believe is about the creation of "TIME".

I believe time was created in order help save men from EVIL. God lives in the spirit realm; outside of the restraints of time & space. I think man was also created to live in the presence of our Creator; outside of the realm of time & space. However, after satan was cast down the world became evil & corrupt.

God had to implement a plan to "purify" mankind & restore them unto HIMSELF. So, HE created a "TIME-line" in which to accomplish this. Thus, "in the beginning" (of "TIME") God started the "timeline" of Jesus coming to save the world.

REMEMBER: The primary purpose of Scripture is to tell us of "HOW" our loving Heavenly Father set out to restore man unto himself through Jesus Christ.

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[time2shoot]

Intrasting. But what about Lilith?
Does anyonr think she ever existed?

[tcox4freedom]

My belief is that Lilith was/is a demon figure in the guise of a woman. I think she was one of the fallen angels; a demon known as a "succubus".

Listen guys, I really don't mean to sound crazy. But, after years in "deliverance" ministry, I "KNOW" beyond any shadow of doubt evil is real, demons are real; and they can fool even the wisest of men!

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