Jew,Christian, Mormon, a childs question

[jack404]

this week i'm told i'm not christian because i dont want my grand kids being taught gays are normal

baptist ministry managment centre Australia

in writing i'll scan it for you again, but

its been front page news here for a while

gays are ok straights are haters

as for the past shows it never not happened

it happened often eh

nothings changed but the excuses ..

[jack404]

Pastor Mike Hercock from the Surry Hills Baptist Church says it is simply fear-mongering. Gays have rights like anyone and one of those rights is to be accepted as normal , those preaching that it is not normal should be removed from society somehow he explained , either by life sentences or capital punishment

see i should be killed

thats this week want next weeks ?? the protest is already planned

baptist minitsies Australia and Gay pride Australia are coming to the illawarra to protest against a school who refused to hire a gay ( 3 times convicted pederist)

wanna come join em call me names and say i an d those like me should be killed??

removed from society ??

just call the muslims they'll do that for ya's and be good mates with you all later

[jack404]

let get that good ole time religion happening

those who are alive at the end of battle are rightous men those who died during battle must be the evil ones and God has trimphed again!!



Praise Grog

[jack404]

Originally Posted by Archie

That's right Jack.

I was there in 1752 with my fire brand and my .45 pistol. I'm still rich from that bounty, by the way.

Could you please take a deep breath and consider 'this week'?

not recent enough ? now its a not ever happened just not recent enough eh??

thanks for the serious answer did you think to respond to the question ??

or should i leave that for your ministry team to reply too via lawyers and advisors ??

[jack404]

what ? no smart arse answers ?? facts sort kill the fun dont they , so when will you be taking one up where the sun dont shine to show you aint a hater like me ??

can we take pic's??

just today 103 baptist (here in Australia) churches state they are gay friendly i note baptists have the same stance in the USA

does that mean the hetro's aint welcome no more ??

i know it explains why the old deacons are all with their butts firmly against the wall all the time

but with 201 baptist churches and over half stating they are gay friendly does that mean faggot rule the baptists??

not real comfortable now eh?? how comfy when i ask you to not hold islamic services and i'm told islam has more in common with Christ than any Christian alive today

by the bapist ministry team !! hahahahahahahaha

salaaam you puratines

i can see the next years baptist news , how to stretch yourself before that big date

how to pray to allah and how to avoid AIDS whilst on bible camp

and yet the mormons aint Christians and apparently nor am i

so be it

an hour later i'm adding this

not fun is it ?

i'm a diest i've a min of 100 pages of horrid stuff on every religion ,

i've been shooting folks religions apart for years and its a weak thing to do cause its so easy , every religion without fail is guilty of a litany of crimes .. but religion is from man , FAITH , is from God

every religion has issues every church

but in all have been good believing souls who have gone against the doctrine and each time we all get a bit more freer\

look at history , the revolutionists within each branch of Christianity they work to bring us all closer to God

i know my words upset , but think

why waste a whole faith and take away all the goodness they do ?

even God in one of His judgement said show me just one person and i'll save the place , ( they could not in that case)

i can show you dozens ..

in all faiths and brands

why ?

Faith is more important than Doctrine , always has been , always will be

because Faith is of God

Doctrine is of man

i believe the power of god is greater than Doctrine and therefore saying they cant be Christian... ?

sorry i see that as not smart ..

but if you wish to wisecrack and dance at your superiority , go ahead

we'll find out how it all washes up sooner or later

in the mean time ask your folks there how come they run ad's to support a mission in outback australia , but here we aint found the place yet

gotta get that old time religion

phil collins got it so right

[Caneman]

Too bad we can't have a free discussion on this issue, even if some get hurt feelings, as it would be better to have someone be saved for eternity at the expense of being hurt in the short term...

But I think if you read scripture carefully, and look at Christian church history, there are a few issues that always seem to come up and distinguish Christianity from all other beliefs:

1) Jesus Christ is uncreated and eternal God. He has always existed in eternity past, present, and eternity future. Nobody or nothing made Jesus Christ, He is uncreated, and was not made from any substance. Not sure how anyone could justify that they are a Christian if they do not worship Jesus Christ as God who is both uncreated and eternal.

2) God, who is Jesus Christ, died on the cross as a sacrifice for all of our sins, it is a free gift of grace to receive this forgiveness, so that we are now acceptable to God and given His righteousness (also a gift). Not sure how anyone can justify that they are a Christian if they believe that Jesus' death on the cross can't forgive some sins, and/or that you have to do certains acts to earn righteousness in God's sight.

There are other issues to consider regarding Chrisitianity, but from my experience the two above always the central core issues.

I thought perhaps that the thread constrainsts had changed in this forum, and we would be able to discuss issues objectively, and with facts, but I am afraid that this still not the case so I am done here.

[Double D]

Originally Posted by Caneman

Too bad we can't have a free discussion on this issue, even if some get hurt feelings, as it would be better to have someone be saved for eternity at the expense of being hurt in the short term...

But I think if you read scripture carefully, and look at Christian church history, there are a few issues that always seem to come up and distinguish Christianity from all other beliefs:

1) Jesus Christ is uncreated and eternal God. He has always existed in eternity past, present, and eternity future. Nobody or nothing made Jesus Christ, He is uncreated, and was not made from any substance. Not sure how anyone could justify that they are a Christian if they do not worship Jesus Christ as God who is both uncreated and eternal.

2) God, who is Jesus Christ, died on the cross as a sacrifice for all of our sins, it is a free gift of grace to receive this forgiveness, so that we are now acceptable to God and given His righteousness (also a gift). Not sure how anyone can justify that they are a Christian if they believe that Jesus' death on the cross can't forgive some sins, and/or that you have to do certains acts to earn righteousness in God's sight.

There are other issues to consider regarding Chrisitianity, but from my experience the two above always the central core issues.

I thought perhaps that the thread constrainsts had changed in this forum, and we would be able to discuss issues objectively, and with facts, but I am afraid that this still not the case so I am done here.

I would think you would be thrilled that you can come here and express your faith openly the way you do. I would challenge you to go to ANY other forum and attempt to have these discussions and see just how long they will last before the plug gets pulled. There MUST be moderation on every issue whether we like it or not. There are some things that I could say about some religions that wouldnt go over very good anywhere, but I dont do it. But, this place is probably a minority when it comes to allowing religious discussion and actually having that discussion without it going south continuously. There is hardly another subject that can get as heated and Terry does well to maintain this forum. So, enjoy what it is. Like I said, I challenge you to find one better. All you will find is people screaming and bashing and heated discussion, not praying for each other and respect. But, if thats not good enough for you, I understand. We all want for people to know the truth. All you can do is post the truth and pray that it is received.

[jack404]

things dont get discussed objectively because the discussion objective is to ridicule and make some feel better about their own miserable POS views by being a bully and denying any good from anyone not of the same exclusive brand logo they are

[RunningOnMT]

And you will be the arbiter of whose views are pos? You have your beliefs and if someone believes differently their views are pos. OK, Now I get it.

As soon as someone says they believe there is only one way someone may be saved, you label that as hate. But I would suggest to you that your comments on this thread have been more hateful than those of anyone who believes differently.

Those of us believing that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ's works alone, are espousing the tenets of Christianity as expressed in Holy scripture. If you have a problem with that, then you have a problem with the Bible, AND you're denying the very words of Jesus Christ Himself.

If you believe differently, that's fine, we could have a discussion. But you wont discuss. You just go off on a tirade against every denomination of the Christian church, "brand" as you call it, that you've ever encountered or heard of. Just go back and reread my original comment on this thread, then reread your response to it, then tell me who was intolerant.

Christians don't condemn anyone. Those who don't accept Christ are condemned already. It's not like we are "better" people by the worlds standards. It's like the entire world was drowning in the ocean and Christ reaches down to rescue all who will take his hand. If we see some refusing to take it and we warn them that they are drowning, you call us hateful.

What has happened on this forum, is that some will make statements regarding certain beliefs with which others may not agree. But as soon as some Christian professes the Gospel (the good news that Christ has come to save us), we are labeled rude, hateful, insulting, and intolerant, then censored.

I am perfectly capable of discussing my faith in a civil manner, with anyone of any faith. That's what reasonable people have done for ages. But I'm not permitted to do so because just to express my beliefs is considered insulting and hateful. And yet others can slip in their little comments about the merits of certain religions unchallenged. How fair is that?

[jack404]

ROMT so far i've posted some of the replies i've had in the mod's area

POS views include

"only my brand of Christianity is valid "

"that all non brand x should be wiped out"

that brand x says brand y is not Christian and i'll report you to the DHS is you say they are again ( why DHS ?? they have a division of religous protection? or this a threat to screw up my visa)

then there where the emails

some to me , some to a church i posted a pic of that i attend maybe 3 times a year

took the minister there all night to figure it was me that he was told about

seems i am a secret mormon , who hates baptists and everything baptist

i'm still waiting for copies of the ones sent to the head of the baptist union here so i'll know what they where about soon

POS ?

yeah i call these acts POS

as for not condeming folks i seen enough condemnation here to last a lifetime

frankly i've had a gutfull of the cowards here

call names and bully then run and cry for protection like redwing and some other low gutless mutts we've had here

big and brave behind a keyboard but when he realises i am coming has run and told cops all over i threatened him , no i stated i'll get a apology ..

but now i threatened to harm him according to the BS i have

no proof but thats ok as he's a good old boy and of the right faith i guess

and i'm just a scumbag non christian cause i tryed to stop folks jumping on folks who do way more than any other group i ever seen out this way

by their deeds shall ye know them

i now know a few here are lowlife complaining liars

[RunningOnMT]

Wait, I'm confused. You're saying you received those comments as pm's on TFF??? I'd like to see the exact word for word messages. If that's true, they came from trolls, we know they exist. I can't imagine any regular contributor to TFF sending you this crap.

[ampaterry]

Nothing at all wrong with stating what YOUR church believes, ROMT.
The problem enters when you decide that you have studied all there is to know about church XX, and then list the things wrong with them, and proclaim that they are lost. Or proclaim that they are not Christian.

[ampaterry]

ROMT, you would not BELIEVE the PM's that mod's get here.
I have been SOUNDLY cursed multiple times.

[jack404]

ROMT i've a msg abusing a mod here posted on my minus account wall that i'm locked out of , i cant remove it i can change it as minus got scared i'd delete all i had posted and so locked me out so not to loss the traffic my posts have made

jack404.minus.com you can look , i'm locked out of my own data


some folks think if they can find a post by you, they can go there and drag up stuff no-one knows about there and its all good

i've spent all morning answering phone calls from posts made by folks calling me out

its quite a crap storm here today ..

if i'm still a member later on today its due to the decent folks here ...

so if this crap is Christian works i want out .. and nothing to do with anyone who claims to be a Christian

i get less attacks from the islamists here

yes i am mighty ticked , but hey what do i expect , defending those low life pretenders ..

i'm bad .. but yet not one of ya's will stand up and be a man and own up to the crap

so i'm in front that way way in front

[ampaterry]

Let me tell you a story, ROMT, that might help you understand why bashing of other Christian groups is not allowed.

I worked for years with a guy, car pooled with him in fact, who was Catholic. The Church of Christ folks at work were merciless on him, constantly attacking him because he was Catholic, and Catholic's were not Christians, they worship Mary instead of Jesus, etc. etc.

One night on the way home, he asked me why they picked on Catholics so much. I told him it is due to some of the Catholic doctrine, and he asked what doctrine. I singled out Ex Cathedra, just for an example, and he did not recognize the term. I told him that it meant when the Pope speaks Ex Cathedra, he speaks with the voice of God, and is incapable of speaking an error.
He sat there for a minute with his eyes wide, then said "Who the HELL believes that?"

This man was as much a Christian as any person I have ever met.
He was a Catholic because his parents were Catholic, and he had been career military. He said that no matter where in the world he was, he could go in a Catholic church on Sunday and knew what to expect, so would feel right at home.

I have never found a church anywhere that I felt everyone in it was lost.
None.
I have never found a church anywhere that I felt everyone in it was saved.
None.

So we do not bash churches; they are indeed imperfect, and they are filled with imperfect people, and they ALL have doctrine that is incorrect.
That is the human condition.
If anyone feels the need to straighten out those false doctrines, they need to do so in person with the church involved, not in a discussion group where they attack members of that church, proclaiming them to not be REAL Christians.

[Double D]

Looking for the perfect church? You will never find it. Once YOU walk in, it is no longer perfect.....

[RunningOnMT]

I'm getting that old deja vu feeling again Terry. We've been down this road a few times my friend. Here's why I keep getting involved in this discussion. I understand your position as a moderator and have no problem with not even getting into this subject again except for the fact that both you and Jack feel compelled to speak in such glowing terms about a few "sects" (not my first choice of words) that it almost sounds like an endorsement. This statement you make:

"I have never found a church anywhere that I felt everyone in it was lost.
None.
I have never found a church anywhere that I felt everyone in it was saved.
None."

is what I have a problem with. I can accept the second part of it about never finding a church where everyone was saved, with no problem. But I find it incomprehensible that a Christian pastor would say they've never found a church where everyone was lost.

Without naming names, you and I both know that a few religions so indoctrinate their members in their ideology that there is zero chance of there being a single member that is unaware of what their church teaches, and I can say without fear of being overly judgmental that if anyone accepts those doctrines, they are indeed lost. I can provide a list of what those damning doctrines are but I am already deeper into this discussion than I ever intended to be. Some pretty hateful and insulting things have already been said on this thread which prove the wisdom of your forum policies. So I'll make you a deal. Since I can't stand to let certain comments by without challenge, I'll just stay off this particular forum before you have to ban me. Of course you know this is nothing personal and I'll keep in touch with your privately for any doctrinal discussions.

[jack404]

I've had and still do have death orders from islam
i have a statement from 3 baptist ministers that i should be locked up for life, or euthanized for my beleif on gays ( they also want to rewrite the bible to take out all the sin so everything is AOK )
and i've had the catholics on my case after someone told a heap of em i hate catholics ( not true at all but causeed a stir )

these are main stream religions

i can show video or written statements in the media to prove the above

this sect you talk about

never once heard any of them talking about killing or attacking anyone

they aint promoting sin as normal

and they aint demanding people like me who oppose that be locked up or killed

funny that ...

you talk of main stream religions as soon as anyone talks about their religion ( knowing all religions are man made ) as the only right one , they are lost

the bigotry against all others set in and away we go
ready for a holy war to kill all them sects and pretenders

arh that old time religion , nothing like it eh ..

[ampaterry]

We will just have to agree to disagree, ROMT.
MANY people go to church XX because they were raised in it, their friends and family go there, and in their hearts they do NOT accept all of that churches doctrine.
I have never found a church (of any size, at least) where this was not the case.
I am, of course, omitting tiny groups of idiots like the Westboro Baptist 'church', where I find it incomprehensible that someone takes part in a group like this without fully believing it.

[45nut]

Originally Posted by RunningOnMT

But I don't think comparing the published beliefs of a particular religion or cult to what scripture says is judging. I don't say the things I do to put someone else down. I do it hoping I've planted a seed of doubt that will cause others to take a look at the teachings of their religion from a biblical perspective. We are not called to go with the flow and not rock the boat, but to speak the truth in all things.

Was not Jesus called the rock of offense? Every Mormon I've ever known are good moral family oriented people. Which is why I think people are drawn to their church. Paul says that to add to or subtract from the Bible is a no no. I know about the canonization and all it entailed and some find fault in the process. I accept what the early church designated as the Bible.

So, extra Biblical writings that are held up as Holy and Divinely inspired are a sign to me that a church's theology may be veering off course and I take appropriate precautions.

If I had 3 prophecy's, I would judge the second and third by the first. If you did that with the bible, book of mormon and the pearl of great price, it would be very interesting. see here

[jack404]

Then there is the Muslim faith as well that if anyone has read parts of the Koran fall pretty much in line with the Torah (Gabriel the archangel gave the Holy Koran to Muhammed according to the Koran) and to respect both Judaism and Christianity.

actually thats taqqiya thats practised even upon the ummah ( the muslim people ) by the clerics

so please explain how moo ham odd have "revelations" , bells would ring and he would shake and his wife would cover him and when he awoke from these revelations he would quote the bible and his followers would write it down

Sir , my understanding of the islamic faith and world is rather good

read the thing


The Muslim Qur'an was made up supposedly from "memory" from those who supposedly committed the words of Muhammad to memory, and from a few scraps found under a bed. This was originally begun about 15-20 years after Muhammad died at his wife Ayish's home in Medina, and he was lowered into a hole in the ground, where he remains. The compilation was not finished until at least 150 years after Muhammad's death. This "hearsay" argument seriously brings the credibility of the Qur'an into question. But, that's only the beginning. All the errors, including simple mathematical and historical errors you will see in the Qur'an below renders it impossible to be a divine revelation.

Al Bukhari, a Muslim scholar of the 9th-10th century, and the most authoritative of the Muslim tradition compilers, writes that whenever Muhammad fell into one of his unpredictable trances his revelations were written on whatever was handy at the time. The leg or thigh bones of dead animals were used, as well as palm leaves, parchments, papers, skins, mats, stones, and bark. And when there was nothing at hand the attempt was made by his disciples to memorize it as closely as possible.

Zaid b. Thabit said: “The Prophet died and the Qur’an had not been assembled into a single place.” (p. 118, Ahmad b. `Ali b. Muhammad al `Asqalani, ibn Hajar, "Fath al Bari", 13 vols, Cairo, 1939/1348, volume 9, page 9)

Zuhri reports, 'We have heard that many Qur'an passages were revealed but that those who had memorized them fell in the Yemama fighting. Those passages had not been written down, and following the deaths of those who knew them, were no longer known; nor had Abu Bakr, nor `Umar nor `Uthman as yet collected the texts of the Qur'an.

“During the battle of Yamama, 450 reciters of the Quran were killed.” (The True Guidance, An Introduction To Quranic Studies, part 4 [Light of Life - P.O. BOX 13, A-9503 Villach, Austria], p. 47- citing Ibn Kathir’s Al-Bidaya wa al-Nibaya, chapter on Battle of Yamama).

Muhammad's child wife said this after Muhammad died:
"The verse of the stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the messenger of Allah expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."


References: Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal. vol. 6. page 269; Sunan Ibn Majah, page 626; Ibn Qutbah, Tawil Mukhtalafi 'l-Hadith (Cairo: Maktaba al-Kulliyat al-Azhariyya. 1966) page 310; As-Suyuti, ad-Durru 'l-Manthur, vol. 2. page 13


but YES they have a holiday for it

that holiday was started by a caliph to distract the people from the news he had stashed money away elsewhere ( with jews!!!!! ) and the city state was broke and all bets where riding on a raid on another city state

they did ok and so it became a tradition

412 years after moo ham odd died.. funny that

[jack404]

Oh and krhords

According to the Qur'an: "Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah. Those who follow him are merciful to one another, but ruthless to unbelievers" Surah 48:29. "Kill the Mushrikun (unbelievers) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush..." Surah 9:5. Also see Surah 9:29: PICKTHAL: "Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture (Christians & Jews) as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.". Please note that there is not a single verse in the entire Christian Bible that contains this "open-ended", universal command to kill/or be ruthless to unbelievers.

Surah 47:4 says:

Therefore, WHEN YOU MEET THE UNBELIEVERS, SMITE AT THEIR NECKS; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

Many Quran translators have tried to soften the meaning in their translation by adding the words “in war” in brackets after the word “Unbelievers” but they are NOT there in the original Arabic text. smiting thier necks would explain the neck slicing they do to jewish settlers ..

whats this about ??

http://new.elfagr.org/dailyPortal_Pr...167367&secid=1

yes its in arabic

its a arhmadhi muslim news site ( they too are being huinted in egypt at the moment )

here it is translated , the pic is a flyer of contact points for a great game that pays and gets rewards , KILL A COPTIC CHRISTIAN

where to claim your reward and how ..

well ?

[jack404]

translation sucks eh , i'll do it myself ..

[ampaterry]

The Torah has more info than the Old Testament?

Don't think so.

I just pulled my Torah and checked -
It only contains the five books of Moses - Genesis through Deuteronomy.

Generally, it would make sense to learn about what it is that you profess you do not believe in.

[jack404]

and i think in the mean time you need to reread romans , heck reread it all if you think Christs wants wimps ...