First ccw weapon

[boozeman]

Hello,

I am currently seeking a small firearm for ccw. As Il ive in Italy there are slim chances for the permit but I'd like some help in case I'm lucky. Hopefully the threats my family has been receiving might help the thing along. First problem is the caliber. 9mm parabellum is forbidden for civilian use so it's either 9x21, .40 S&W, .357 , .38 spl etc. we are also only allowed fmj or lead bullets (wadcutters should be ok, but no semi-wadcutters) to avoid actually hurting the person we're shooting at, but that's just how it is here. Ideally I'd like a small revolver or pistol, for pocket carry in a specialised holster. It is best the gun remains always fully concealed to avoid panicky people calling the cops if they see it.

I was thinking of a J frame revolver from smith & wesson, to be fed FMJ ammo of some kind. I'd start off with regular power .38's to get lower recoil for ease of use, then maybe work up to +p after I have some experience with the gun.

For home defence I'm going to get a shotgun soon in 12 gauge. I was looking at a Benelli Nova with a short 47cm barrel and possibly a magazine extender + flashlight. This should be easier to get as home posession is allowed.

Thank you for your help,
Boozeman

[gun runner]

Wow those are some strict laws ya got over there. Smith and wesson makes alot of small revolvers. also taurus. I never dealt with Taurus but I never had a problem with any revolver I ever shot. Going with a revolver is probaly the best choice in my opinion. Its like a revolver will never fail but a good quality pistol cleaned oiled and fed good quality ammunition. My first pistol was a Smith and Wesson model 5906 9mm semi auto and it jammed on the 3 shot when I brought it home. So I never bought another pistol again and i wont ever. I will stick with a revolver but its up to you. Good Luck

[Recon 173]

For many years I carried a .357 magnum revolver loaded with .38 special ammo. The key to any good handgun is lots of practice and good shot placement. I learned and was trained to shoot 2 bullets to the chest and 1 bullet to the head. One thing I also learned that a 4 inch barrel is much more accurate and more easily controls recoil than a short 2 inch barrel. Another thing to consider is that the 2 inch barrel handguns in the S&W J frames only have 5 rounds in them. A Model 13 or a Model 65 revolver can also come in a 3 inch barrel and holds 6 rounds. These two models are really good guns and have been used by undercover police over here for years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%26W_Model_13

As for a shotgun, I learned to appreciate a good TACTICAL pump shot gun in 12 gauge. A tactical shotgun has a sidesaddle on it, a sling, rifled sights and an extended storage tube for ammo. There are all sorts of videos about tactical shotguns out there and on YouTube for you to watch and learn. I own a Remington 870 that I keep around the house ready for those "midnight social events." Another thing that you might want to consider is a 20 gauge tactical shotgun as an alternative to a bigger bore 12 gauge. Both will work for you. If there is a chance that another family member might need to use the shotgun, go with the 20 gauge. If you're sure that nobody else will use the shotgun then go with a good 12 gauge. For close range, across the room, think about using 00 buckshot. For longer distances consider using a slug round. A red dot sight on your shotgun is another thing to consider for high speed, accurate shooting.

[gun runner]

If your going to use a shotgun for home/self defense then go with a 12 or 10 gauge, regardless if its a tactical or regular shotgun. Buckshot is the best way to go with self defense

[CCHolderinMaine]

Originally Posted by boozeman

Hello,

I am currently seeking a small firearm for ccw. As Il ive in Italy there are slim chances for the permit but I'd like some help in case I'm lucky. Hopefully the threats my family has been receiving might help the thing along. First problem is the caliber. 9mm parabellum is forbidden for civilian use so it's either 9x21, .40 S&W, .357 , .38 spl etc. we are also only allowed fmj or lead bullets (wadcutters should be ok, but no semi-wadcutters) to avoid actually hurting the person we're shooting at, but that's just how it is here. Ideally I'd like a small revolver or pistol, for pocket carry in a specialised holster. It is best the gun remains always fully concealed to avoid panicky people calling the cops if they see it.

I was thinking of a J frame revolver from smith & wesson, to be fed FMJ ammo of some kind. I'd start off with regular power .38's to get lower recoil for ease of use, then maybe work up to +p after I have some experience with the gun.

For home defence I'm going to get a shotgun soon in 12 gauge. I was looking at a Benelli Nova with a short 47cm barrel and possibly a magazine extender + flashlight. This should be easier to get as home posession is allowed.

Thank you for your help,
Boozeman

.40 and .357 are allowed but a 9mm isn't?

So, ummm, a .22 must be REALLY out of the question.......

[Airdale]

boozeman,

Welcome to the forum.

On the pistol side (semi auto) take a look at the Bersa offerings. Just bought the wife a Bersa Storm .380 concealed carry and I couldn't be more pleased, especially considering we only paid $310 for it. Fit and finish are flawless. Take a peek. http://www.bersa.com/bersa-firearms/...led-carry.html

Seeing as you are stuck with FMJ ammo you might want a larger caliber. They offer their Bersa Thunder UC Pro series in 9mm, .40 and .45. The 9mm is out, the .40 will give you 10+1 capacity, the .45 7+1.
You can get all the specs here. http://www.bersa.com/bersa-firearms/...ro-series.html.

I don't consider any of these a "pocket pistol" but they are will all virtually disappear using an IWB (inside the waistband) holster. The Storm was undetectable using a belly band.

Lots of other choices out there some smaller (lose capacity and accuracy)
some more well known but few with the quality at the price the Bersa is offered for.

Don't mean to sound like a Bersa sales rep. but I am really impressed with them.
Wish I had found them sooner.

Hope this helps.

[carver]

Originally Posted by boozeman

Hello,

I am currently seeking a small firearm for ccw. As Il ive in Italy there are slim chances for the permit but I'd like some help in case I'm lucky. Hopefully the threats my family has been receiving might help the thing along. First problem is the caliber. 9mm parabellum is forbidden for civilian use so it's either 9x21, .40 S&W, .357 , .38 spl etc. we are also only allowed fmj or lead bullets (wadcutters should be ok, but no semi-wadcutters) to avoid actually hurting the person we're shooting at, but that's just how it is here. Ideally I'd like a small revolver or pistol, for pocket carry in a specialised holster. It is best the gun remains always fully concealed to avoid panicky people calling the cops if they see it.

I was thinking of a J frame revolver from smith & wesson, to be fed FMJ ammo of some kind. I'd start off with regular power .38's to get lower recoil for ease of use, then maybe work up to +p after I have some experience with the gun.

For home defence I'm going to get a shotgun soon in 12 gauge. I was looking at a Benelli Nova with a short 47cm barrel and possibly a magazine extender + flashlight. This should be easier to get as home posession is allowed.

Thank you for your help,
Boozeman

Is .44 caliber in Lead Round Nose (LRN) acceptable? If so, take a look at the Charter Arms Bull Dog in .44 special!

[WHSmithIV]

I think that given the rules you have to follow you would probably be best off with a .380 semi auto or one using 9x18mm such as the Polish P64 Radom. There should be plenty of these pistols available around Europe and the ammo will certainly be available.

In the .380 range you have a lot to choose from that fits the requirement for being easily and completely concealable including the Ruger LCP, various Walther PPK models (only buy a good used one from before they were licensed to S&W) and copies, the Bersa as mentioned above. Baretta also has a range of pistols that are very concealable like the Tomcat in .32 auto (which would keep you well inside the requirements) and they have the PX4 in a variety of calibers. Then you have some decent models from Glock and Sig Sauer as well.

For a good read on what are thought to be really good concealed carry pistols you might like to read this article: http://www.chuckhawks.com/concealed_pistols.htm

Good luck in getting the permit. They aren't easy to get in any European country.

[howlnmad]

I like your choice of a wheel gun. The s-w j frame is an excellent choice, my wife carries one. I carry a wheel gun as well. I just don't want to have to worry about a semi auto stovepiping or jamming up.

Oh and welcome to TFF.

[carver]

Personally, I believe that big bullets make big holes!

[howlnmad]

Originally Posted by carver

Personally, I believe that big bullets make big holes!

Gotta agree with you on that.

Funny how they have to use FMJ or wadcutters so they don't hurt someone. They ever seen the hole a wadcutter makes?

[WHSmithIV]

Funny how they have to use FMJ or wadcutters so they don't hurt someone. They ever seen the hole a wadcutter makes?

Seems to me that any bullet of any caliber travelling at a the speed a bullet travels is going to make a hole and it's going to hurt...... I think their concept is to try to keep the bullet in the intended target so that it doesn't keep on going and hit an innocent behind that target.... I'd suspect then that 357 magnum and 44 magnum are also not allowed.

[boozeman]

Originally Posted by WHSmithIV

Seems to me that any bullet of any caliber travelling at a the speed a bullet travels is going to make a hole and it's going to hurt...... I think their concept is to try to keep the bullet in the intended target so that it doesn't keep on going and hit an innocent behind that target.... I'd suspect then that 357 magnum and 44 magnum are also not allowed.

Nope, only the "military" calibers are not allowed. .357, .44 magnum, etc. etc. are all allowed. in fact the most common is 9 x 21 IMI. Their concept is the less weapons around the better, unfortunately for honest people. until 2006 we had a "proportional defense law" that required you to use the same force to repel an attack. it meant you were convicted for using excessive force if you used a gun to repel a home invader with a knife. Now we have a law that assumes proportional force if you repel an attack from your home or place of work, as long as the other person is a threat, i.e. not unarmed and does not surrender. This is still not very good as Judges tend to interpret the law restrictively and favor the criminal. 'Tis very bad here!

[lilmule]

Different states here have different laws concerning that,In Tennesse we are permitted use of deadly force only in defense of a what we determine to be a life threatening situation,naturally should it occur may be judged by 12 of ones peers.
Should the threat stop,or go away we cannot shoot them in the back,run after etc or even attempt to stop a crime unless life threatening as we are not police officers.
And one persons life threatening situation may be different than someone elses,thus why we need to think a bit as may be judged for ones actions.
Im disabled ,older,heart condition,130lbs,so to me a 300 lb man enraged beating on me is life threatening,but would not be able to explain why I shot the perp ten times and reloaded and did it again.There are possible reactions to our actions.
Honestly believe better to be judged by 12 than carried by six,but one must also be prepared to pay if not in accordance with the law.

[jeffadaklin]

WHSmith had a thought I had- they can't have 9mm but they can have 357s? Either really screwy rules or a mistaken option. For the OP I'd say a 380 auto or 38 special. Wadcutters in those calibers would be pretty tough.

[Caneman]

Originally Posted by carver

Personally, I believe that big bullets make big holes!

that what i'm talking about, right there!

[WTHines]

It almost seems like I am on my HIGH HORSE tonight about big bore handguns but, here goes once again. I carried 38 Colt Model 10 as a police officer in Virginia (way back in the late 60's ). The comments about bigger bullets make bigger holes is totally correct. Also you might add that bigger fools make bigger holes in things other than what they shoot toward. Specifically not hitting what they THINK they are aiming at. CCW is a matter of personal carry and comfort. Any "wheel" gun worth its salt will be difficult to conceal (I am 6'6" and 270 pounds) I dare you to hide one that has 3 or 4 inch barrel on me anywhere! That said, autos are most finicky but also easier to conceal. Accuracy is number one in importance. Unless you are shooting hand grenades, close is NOT good enough. Practice with whatever you feel comfortable with and purchase the best you can afford in any caliber. The 22 is most cost effective for practice. Personally, I carry here in Kentucky the 9mm Browning High Power most of the time in fall and winter and my CCW other seasons is Bersas Thunder 22 both equipted with CrimsonTrace grips. Practice, practice, practice. Accuracy and comfort are the bywords for CCW and personal protection. The second most important factor in your CCW is Practice, Practice, Practice. You cannot believe the tension you will be under if called upon to use the weapon. Good luck As a foot note, during CCW practical test, one person brought the exact weapon pictured above (44 mag). They could not hit the man size silhouette at 7 yards due to recoil. Another person placed the first 12 shots cleanly in the head at that distance with a 22 H&R revolver. Which weapon is best?

[north tex]

Originally Posted by WTHines

....... Good luck As a foot note, during CCW practical test, one person brought the exact weapon pictured above (44 mag). They could not hit the man size silhouette at 7 yards due to recoil......

Well the only one I could find pictured above is a 44 Spl not a 44 Mag. I can shoot 44 Spls all day long and consistently keep them in center mass out beyond 25 yards (If I can find enough ammo.)
I understand what you mean about combat stress, have experienced "tunnel vision", and some other adrenalin caused symptoms but I still want something more reliable than rim fire 22. I use it for back up only.

[twobit]

If you are looking at the J frames (which are very good) also look at a Ruger LCR. I prefer the trigger pull of the LCR over that of the J frame. If you need a very small gun then the NAA mini-mag in 22 magnum fits well in a pocket. The caliber is small, but is better than nothing. I usually carry a mini-mag as a second gun, but there have been times that it was all I carried due to clothing or such.

[carver]

Originally Posted by WTHines

It almost seems like I am on my HIGH HORSE tonight about big bore handguns but, here goes once again. I carried 38 Colt Model 10 as a police officer in Virginia (way back in the late 60's ). The comments about bigger bullets make bigger holes is totally correct. Also you might add that bigger fools make bigger holes in things other than what they shoot toward. Specifically not hitting what they THINK they are aiming at. CCW is a matter of personal carry and comfort. Any "wheel" gun worth its salt will be difficult to conceal (I am 6'6" and 270 pounds) I dare you to hide one that has 3 or 4 inch barrel on me anywhere! That said, autos are most finicky but also easier to conceal. Accuracy is number one in importance. Unless you are shooting hand grenades, close is NOT good enough. Practice with whatever you feel comfortable with and purchase the best you can afford in any caliber. The 22 is most cost effective for practice. Personally, I carry here in Kentucky the 9mm Browning High Power most of the time in fall and winter and my CCW other seasons is Bersas Thunder 22 both equipted with CrimsonTrace grips. Practice, practice, practice. Accuracy and comfort are the bywords for CCW and personal protection. The second most important factor in your CCW is Practice, Practice, Practice. You cannot believe the tension you will be under if called upon to use the weapon. Good luck As a foot note, during CCW practical test, one person brought the exact weapon pictured above (44 mag). They could not hit the man size silhouette at 7 yards due to recoil. Another person placed the first 12 shots cleanly in the head at that distance with a 22 H&R revolver. Which weapon is best?

First off, welcome to the forum! I'm 5'11", and weigh in at 220. I carry a 1911A, and the .44 spcl in the picture. I have no problems at all! My BUG is usually a .38 snubbie, and I have no problems with carring both guns concealed. I don't know what kind of clothing you wear, but I bet that I can find a gun, and holster that will work just fine for you with either of the guns I carry. I do agree with you on the fact that if you can't hit what you are shooting at, either stop carring a gun, or find one that works for you.

[whirley]

For home defense , a shotgun is good. However at the short distances in the home, small shot, 6, 71/2 or 8 is just as effective as 00 buck, and probably won't penetrate into adjoining rooms. Lots more pellets, many more hits. Probably much less expensive also.