Trying to identify year, make and model.

[conmore]

Hi there

A close friend of mine aquired this pistol and while we were talking about it he commented he had no idea what year it may have been manufactured, make and model of the pistol.

He's not very computer literate so I said I would try and find out for him. The pistol is in Australia if that's any help and I took a few shots with my iPhone so they're not the best quality but gives an idea.

It has "CA" hand engraved on the left side of the grip (probably the owners initials) and 4 notches cut into it as well.

Cheers

[jack404]

looks roughly like a warners pocket pistol early version about 1855 before going to the new design

your pics need to be a lot better mate

welcome to the forum good to see more Aussies here

[Jim K]

It is pretty defiinitely a Kerr, or a copy of one. Kerrs were made by the London Armory Co. and should have English proof marks. Since that one does not seem to have them, I think it is probably a copy, probably Spanish and converted to cartridge.

Here is a link that shows a nearly identical gun with an ejector added:

http://www.icollector.com/Spanish-Co...lver_i11083379

Jim

[conmore]

Originally Posted by Jim K

It is pretty defiinitely a Kerr, or a copy of one. Kerrs were made by the London Armory Co. and should have English proof marks. Since that one does not seem to have them, I think it is probably a copy, probably Spanish and converted to cartridge.

Here is a link that shows a nearly identical gun with an ejector added:

http://www.icollector.com/Spanish-Co...lver_i11083379

Jim

Hi there
Thanks for that. It definitely looks the same from my poor images off my phone.
I rang my friend to ask if there were any further identifying marks he could see easily and the number #2236 is stamped on the underside of the barrel.
Does that help narrow anything down?
I'll be seeing him again in the next few days and I'll take much better photos with my camera as suggested by jack404

Cheers

[jack404]

its the proof marks and others that will ID it , serials without a makers mark or other ID mean little ..

[Jim K]

Jack is correct, but I might add that numbers, if low, often are batch numbers or assembly numbers rather than serial numbers. At that time, guns made with totally interchangeable parts were not common. An assembler took the frame and fitted the parts, using a file and a lot of experience. Then the parts were numbered and the gun sent for finishing (bluing, plating, or whatever). After the finishing was done, the gun was reassembled, using the numbers to make sure the fitted parts were put back in the right gun.

This was often done in batches of 100 or so guns, so 2-3 digit numbers are also called "batch numbers."

Jim

[RJay]

Been reading about Mad Dan, Black Jack, Gainer , Black Caesar and such, can't help but wonder if perhaps it wasn't a Bush Rangers gun.

[Jim K]

If those five notches mean five victims, I don't guess the owner was anyone to mess with. I won't even guess at the value, but a proven association with anyone noted or notorious should increase the value significantly.

Jim

[conmore]

Hi there

The Bush Ranger concept is certainly an interesting line to try and research seeing the revolver is in Australia. Also I believe there are 7 smaller notches on the other side of the hand grip, taking the tally to 12!!

As I said previously, I am now very keen to take much better photos than the ones I listed in my OP, but I spoke to my mate and he couldn't find any further identifying stamps or markings with the naked eye. I'll use a magnifying glass.

I'll have a much better look in a few days when I take the shots. But the information so far is intriguing to say the least!

Cheers

[Jim K]

The obvious step is to try to identify any outlaw (or lawman) with the initials "C.A.". From what little I know about Australian history, I don't think a law officer would have 1) had a Spanish(?) copy of an English revolver, 2) would have carried his own personal weapon 3) would have carved up a government issue weapon that way and 4) have killed that many men, assuming that is what the notches mean.

So I am inclined toward the "bushranger" idea; that gun would probably date to the 1870's; the period when many percussion revolvers were being converted to cartridges. Of course, it could have belonged to anyone in a rough era, even to a someone who was not a recognized "bushranger", but just a plain old unromantic criminal.

Jim

[conmore]

Hi there

Added better photos and some more description:

In my OP I mentioned the number #671 which I've found appears on othr parts: side plate, trigger guard, trigger, hammer and on the edge of the cylinder.

#2236 is stamped on the bottom of the barrell

#1586 is stamped adjacent to the mechanism that flips outwards allowing access to the cylinder.

Also there is a stampimg or proof mark that looks like a crown with an inverted U directly underneath it.

Getter a closer idea of the make and model of this revolver would fantastic. Trying to track down who "CA" was with 12 notches to his name is proving to be very difficult.

Cheers










I also want to mention that (won't add to identification process) that the hammer will not "cock" and there is a screw missing that acts as a pivot for the trigger.

[Buffalochip]

Is the hammer under pressure when you pull it back and it just doesn't catch? Wood and philips head screws need to be replaced with period hardware.

[conmore]

Originally Posted by Buffalochip

Is the hammer under pressure when you pull it back and it just doesn't catch? Wood and philips head screws need to be replaced with period hardware.

Hi there

Yes, the hammer has tension when you pull it back and it doesn't catch. I noticed the dodgy phillips screw when I first saw the revolver. But the wood in the handgrips (if thats what you're referring to) I would have thought was original?

Cheers

[RJay]

Originally Posted by conmore

Hi there

Yes, the hammer has tension when you pull it back and it doesn't catch. I noticed the dodgy phillips screw when I first saw the revolver. But the wood in the handgrips (if thats what you're referring to) I would have thought was original?

Cheers

He was referring to the screws ( wood screws, a type used in furniture making ) not the grips

[conmore]

Originally Posted by RJay

He was referring to the screws ( wood screws, a type used in furniture making ) not the grips

Hi there

Of course!!!

Anyone else care to offer any further information on the revolver itself?

Cheers

[conmore]

Hi there
I realise that this post has probably run its race but if anyone else could give me a glimmer of more information it would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

[jack404]

do you have a better pic of this mark ?

crown over O is Austrian (late hapsburg period) if thats what it is

Crown over something

or is it a bee?? or ant ?

[deadin]

Here's another version......
http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20esp...rango%20gb.htm

[conmore]

Originally Posted by jack404

do you have a better pic of this mark ?

crown over O is Austrian (late hapsburg period) if thats what it is

Crown over something

or is it a bee?? or ant ?

Hi there

Not sure how I can get a better shot of this particular stamping, but I'm determined to try? Possibly a photo of the magnified image from a magnifying glass?

Cheers

[jack404]

a bee would give the idea of frnch made a ant Belguim made

but it may be a personal stamping too or a incomplete one

i think that was engraved a long time ago but worn away

very interesting gun what ever it is

thanks for posting eh . had a lot of fun looking it up

[conmore]

Hi there

As a last ditch effort I'll take a better picture of the stamping..

Cheers