Antique spur trigger pistol? - The Firearms Forum

stljason1 · 09-09-2012, 05:05 PM

I am trying to figure out any information on this gun. I photographed the markings as best I could, it says Cal 635 and on the bottom of the barrell it says "spain". Other than that the photos show the only other markings I can see. It had a hand written note with it that says "Spur trigger pistol" And "England Crown" and the note also says "1850 year?" Im not sure if any of this is accurate.

I know very little about guns but the main difference I see with this from photos I have seen online, is that the peice on top where you pull back to cock it is not on this gun.

Any info would be appreciated!

Jim K · 09-09-2012, 06:13 PM

It is Spanish; the "England Crown" marking is probably intended to deceive the buyer about its origin. It is chambered for the 6.35mm Browning, aka the .25 ACP. After the .32 ACP (7.65mm Browning) and the .25 ACP became popular with the introduction of auto pistols in those calibers, European revolver makers took advantage of the fact that the cartridges had rims and chambered inexpensive revolvers for them. That gun is a hammerless (concealed hammer) model.

Obviously, the 1850 date is incorrect; the .25 ACP was not developed until c. 1905.

Value of those little guns is not high from any country, and Spanish quality was considered far from the best. They usually sell for under $100, more as novelties than as using pistols. Parts and service are not available.

Jim

deadin · 09-09-2012, 06:15 PM

Not a spur trigger, but a folding trigger chambered in .25 Auto. This cartridge was not introduced until 1905 (by John Browning), so that pretty well dates your pistol to no earlier than that. These little hammerless, folding triggers pocket pistols were quite popular in Europe from the early 20th Century up until the '20's and'30's. Various versions were made in Spain, Belgium and Germany. There were even a few examples made in the U.S.
They are not worth a whole lot, but can be collectible if in decent shape.
I have seen the logo on yours somewhere, but can't bring it to mind right now. If I find it I will post back.....

RJay · 09-09-2012, 07:36 PM

The place on top where you pull it back to cock it is referred to as the " hammer ". It seems to be hammerless ( to avoid snagging on your pocket upon withdrawal, these were considered pocket guns ) so i would guess it is trigger action only. It would be classified as an antique by most antique shops, however technically not by the BATFE, to be classed as a antique it would have to have been manufactures on or prior to 1898.

stljason1 · 09-10-2012, 09:00 PM

Thanks for all the information!

FlashBang · 09-11-2012, 01:11 PM

Your revolver looks to have been possibly one of several models made by the firm "Urreta y Compania", of Ermua, in the 1920's. It is a copy of a Belgium Velo-Dog, but made in the 6.35 caliber. The Belgium Velo-Dog was very popular and was copied by a lot of manufacturers so to pin it down conclusively may be tough. These types of revolvers were popular with prostitutes who carried them in their garter belts for protection. Value is not much, it would be between $50-100. The firearm is a C&R ( Curio and Relic ) as it is over 50 years old. This means you can sell it directly, and ship it directly, to either an 01 FFL or an 03 FFL licensee. Hope this information helps you out.

FlashBang · 09-11-2012, 03:37 PM

OK, I am going to correct myself here... I just couldn't let it go and kept digging. The marking of FA in a logo with a star over a crescent is the mark of Francisco Arizmendi, in Eibar, Spain. The revolver is one of the models known as "Little Puppy" and was a copy of the Velo-Dog. The stamping of the PV surmounted by the image of a dog (greyhound) is the proof mark of Arizmendi, copied from the proof mark of Liege, for having passed testing with sharp powder. The star with a P inside, is the proof mark of the factory for the revolver.

The value does not change, but at least now you know what it really is.
I have verified with photos of another and will put them on here for you.

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Jim K · 09-11-2012, 04:52 PM

Please forgive a pet peeve. It is not correct to call any folding trigger European revolver a "Velodog". The Velo Dog (various spellings) was a cartridge, not a gun, and it is no more correct to call all revolvers of that type "velodogs" than it would be to call all swing cylinder revolvers ".38 Specials" regardless of the actual caliber.

Jim

FlashBang · 09-11-2012, 06:33 PM

http://nramuseum.com/the-museum/the-...-revolver.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velo-dog

Did the revolver come first and then the round designed to fire in it, or was the round made first and a revolver then designed to fire it with? One of the mysteries of life we may never know.

My guess is that the revolver design was made first and then the cartridge for it. Since the revolver model was called the Velo-Dog, the cartridge became known as the Velo-Dog cartridge. Now it seems to be used primarily as a reference to a style of revolver.

But whichever way it came about is all good with me. I was just helping out with the information to help the OP.

RJay · 09-11-2012, 07:43 PM

Charles Francois Galand : Velo-Dog. Every Belgium revolver these days,regardless of what they are, seems to be labeled either a Bulldog ( even with a 6 inch barrel !). a Muff gun ( even the large revolvers ) or a Velo Dog ( even if chambered in a large caliber, if it has a folding trigger, then it is a Velo Dog! ( which the Velo Dog doesn't have ). what ever

Jim K · 09-12-2012, 12:07 PM

The cartridge, or at least the idea for it, came first. The idea was to provide a powerful round, sufficient to kill a dog, in a small revolver that could be easily carried by walkers or bicyclists. (The origin of the name is well known.) That type of revolver had long been in production, so it was simply adapted to use the new round. But it was not a matter of just drilling different size holes in the cylinder; the long cartridge necessitated a cylinder almost as long as that of a .38 Special revolver. That gives a true Velo-Dog revolver a distinctive appearance, as the picture indicates.

The round is the same overall length as a .22 Magnum Rimfire, though it is slightly larger in case diameter and is center-fire.

Here is a picture of a true Velo-Dog revolver. Compare the length of the cylinder with that of the gun pictured by the OP.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...9QEwAw&dur=999

Jim

09-09-2012, 05:05 PM	#1
stljason1 Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 2	Antique spur trigger pistol? I am trying to figure out any information on this gun. I photographed the markings as best I could, it says Cal 635 and on the bottom of the barrell it says "spain". Other than that the photos show the only other markings I can see. It had a hand written note with it that says "Spur trigger pistol" And "England Crown" and the note also says "1850 year?" Im not sure if any of this is accurate. I know very little about guns but the main difference I see with this from photos I have seen online, is that the peice on top where you pull back to cock it is not on this gun. Any info would be appreciated! Attached Images -->

09-09-2012, 06:13 PM	#2
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Antique spur trigger pistol? It is Spanish; the "England Crown" marking is probably intended to deceive the buyer about its origin. It is chambered for the 6.35mm Browning, aka the .25 ACP. After the .32 ACP (7.65mm Browning) and the .25 ACP became popular with the introduction of auto pistols in those calibers, European revolver makers took advantage of the fact that the cartridges had rims and chambered inexpensive revolvers for them. That gun is a hammerless (concealed hammer) model. Obviously, the 1850 date is incorrect; the .25 ACP was not developed until c. 1905. Value of those little guns is not high from any country, and Spanish quality was considered far from the best. They usually sell for under $100, more as novelties than as using pistols. Parts and service are not available. Jim

09-09-2012, 06:15 PM	#3
deadin Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 867	Re: Antique spur trigger pistol? Not a spur trigger, but a folding trigger chambered in .25 Auto. This cartridge was not introduced until 1905 (by John Browning), so that pretty well dates your pistol to no earlier than that. These little hammerless, folding triggers pocket pistols were quite popular in Europe from the early 20th Century up until the '20's and'30's. Various versions were made in Spain, Belgium and Germany. There were even a few examples made in the U.S. They are not worth a whole lot, but can be collectible if in decent shape. I have seen the logo on yours somewhere, but can't bring it to mind right now. If I find it I will post back.....

09-09-2012, 07:36 PM	#4
RJay Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,504	Re: Antique spur trigger pistol? The place on top where you pull it back to cock it is referred to as the " hammer ". It seems to be hammerless ( to avoid snagging on your pocket upon withdrawal, these were considered pocket guns ) so i would guess it is trigger action only. It would be classified as an antique by most antique shops, however technically not by the BATFE, to be classed as a antique it would have to have been manufactures on or prior to 1898. __________________ RonJames

09-10-2012, 09:00 PM	#5
stljason1 Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 2	Re: Antique spur trigger pistol? Thanks for all the information!

09-11-2012, 01:11 PM	#6
FlashBang V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 200	Re: Antique spur trigger pistol? Your revolver looks to have been possibly one of several models made by the firm "Urreta y Compania", of Ermua, in the 1920's. It is a copy of a Belgium Velo-Dog, but made in the 6.35 caliber. The Belgium Velo-Dog was very popular and was copied by a lot of manufacturers so to pin it down conclusively may be tough. These types of revolvers were popular with prostitutes who carried them in their garter belts for protection. Value is not much, it would be between $50-100. The firearm is a C&R ( Curio and Relic ) as it is over 50 years old. This means you can sell it directly, and ship it directly, to either an 01 FFL or an 03 FFL licensee. Hope this information helps you out.

09-11-2012, 03:37 PM	#7
FlashBang V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 200	Re: Antique spur trigger pistol? OK, I am going to correct myself here... I just couldn't let it go and kept digging. The marking of FA in a logo with a star over a crescent is the mark of Francisco Arizmendi, in Eibar, Spain. The revolver is one of the models known as "Little Puppy" and was a copy of the Velo-Dog. The stamping of the PV surmounted by the image of a dog (greyhound) is the proof mark of Arizmendi, copied from the proof mark of Liege, for having passed testing with sharp powder. The star with a P inside, is the proof mark of the factory for the revolver. The value does not change, but at least now you know what it really is. I have verified with photos of another and will put them on here for you.

09-11-2012, 04:52 PM	#8
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Antique spur trigger pistol? Please forgive a pet peeve. It is not correct to call any folding trigger European revolver a "Velodog". The Velo Dog (various spellings) was a cartridge, not a gun, and it is no more correct to call all revolvers of that type "velodogs" than it would be to call all swing cylinder revolvers ".38 Specials" regardless of the actual caliber. Jim

09-11-2012, 06:33 PM	#9
FlashBang V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 200	Re: Antique spur trigger pistol? http://nramuseum.com/the-museum/the-...-revolver.aspx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velo-dog Did the revolver come first and then the round designed to fire in it, or was the round made first and a revolver then designed to fire it with? One of the mysteries of life we may never know. My guess is that the revolver design was made first and then the cartridge for it. Since the revolver model was called the Velo-Dog, the cartridge became known as the Velo-Dog cartridge. Now it seems to be used primarily as a reference to a style of revolver. But whichever way it came about is all good with me. I was just helping out with the information to help the OP.

09-11-2012, 07:43 PM	#10
RJay Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,504	Re: Antique spur trigger pistol? Charles Francois Galand : Velo-Dog. Every Belgium revolver these days,regardless of what they are, seems to be labeled either a Bulldog ( even with a 6 inch barrel !). a Muff gun ( even the large revolvers ) or a Velo Dog ( even if chambered in a large caliber, if it has a folding trigger, then it is a Velo Dog! ( which the Velo Dog doesn't have ). what ever __________________ RonJames Last edited by RJay; 09-11-2012 at 07:50 PM..

09-12-2012, 12:07 PM	#11
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Antique spur trigger pistol? The cartridge, or at least the idea for it, came first. The idea was to provide a powerful round, sufficient to kill a dog, in a small revolver that could be easily carried by walkers or bicyclists. (The origin of the name is well known.) That type of revolver had long been in production, so it was simply adapted to use the new round. But it was not a matter of just drilling different size holes in the cylinder; the long cartridge necessitated a cylinder almost as long as that of a .38 Special revolver. That gives a true Velo-Dog revolver a distinctive appearance, as the picture indicates. The round is the same overall length as a .22 Magnum Rimfire, though it is slightly larger in case diameter and is center-fire. Here is a picture of a true Velo-Dog revolver. Compare the length of the cylinder with that of the gun pictured by the OP. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...9QEwAw&dur=999 Jim Last edited by Jim K; 09-12-2012 at 12:14 PM..