Drilling (Need some information) - The Firearms Forum

dlshooting · 09-17-2012, 08:45 AM

I have recently encountered a Drilling and the individual that owns it was looking for more information on it. Anything would be helpful i.e. maker and particular model? Here is the information I have found on the gun itself:

On BBL rib: E Kirchhoff Dieringhausen RHLD (bblis 27")
Underside of BBL: 16Ga, 16Ga, 7.8mm Nitro 15gr
Serial number 119?

I tried to take some good pictures. Any idea on maker and an average price point? It appears in very good overall condition.

Thank you

Mike

dlshooting · 09-17-2012, 08:46 AM

More pics

dlshooting · 09-17-2012, 08:48 AM

A few more pics

dlshooting · 09-17-2012, 08:50 AM

Last pic. Thanks again for any information.

Alpo · 09-17-2012, 09:28 AM

Post #3, picture #1. Better, sharper, larger pictures of those stamps would help. The shape of the crowns over the letters, which letters there are, numbers inside circles, they all mean something.

Try sprinkling some baby powder on there and then wipe it with your finger. That should clear the surface but all the stamps should stay filled with baby powder, giving nice white markings to examine.

dlshooting · 09-17-2012, 09:43 AM

Closer pics

hrf · 09-17-2012, 11:03 AM

Drillings are a specialized field, and you might get the most definitive answer on the German Gun Collectors forum:

http://www.germanguns.com/upload/forum.php

Alpo · 09-17-2012, 11:17 AM

Both the crown over what looks like a IV, but what I think is a W, and the eagle next to it, look like East German proofs. That would make it post-war.

Alpo · 09-17-2012, 11:33 AM

The second picture in #6. Proofed for smokeless (Nitro), using 15 grams of powder and a Steel Jacketed Bullet (Stahl Mantel Geschoss)

The bird over the Crown-over-U looks like the final black powder proof.

The more I look, the confuseder I get.

The height of the cross on the crowns looks East German, 1950 to 1992, Suhl proofhouse.

Everything else appears to be 1891 to 1939.

Look at #10 on this page. Crown over W - choked barrel.
http://www.shotguns.se/html/germany_1890-1945.html

Then the 6th one in the second table here. Also crown over W. Also choked barrel. The height of the cross.
http://www.shotguns.se/html/east_germany.html

I'm pretty sure it's German.

hrf · 09-17-2012, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpo

Both the crown over what looks like a IV, but what I think is a W, and the eagle next to it, look like East German proofs. That would make it post-war.

Alpo, Dieringhausen is in the North Rhine area east of Cologne and would not have been in East Germany.

(Note abbreviation RHLD for Rhineland after Dieringhausen on the rib)

Jim K · 09-17-2012, 06:55 PM

Today Dieringhausen is in Nordrhein Westfãlen, but I assume that when the gun was made it was in the Rheinland (Rhld.) In any case, as hrf says, it was never in East Germany, and the crown/W is the pre-WWII proofmark for a choked shotgun barrel.

The Crown/U was the definitive proof for arms proved in the finished state. All the marks on the shotgun barrels are correct for 16 gauge. The rifle barrel is marked 7.8 and 57, indicating chambering for 8x57JR or JRS, probably the former, but there is no way to be sure, so it would be best to assume that it is a JR and uses a .318" bullet rather than the JRS bullet at .323".

I doubt the gun was actually made in the Rhineland, it was probably made and proved in the Suhl area and the name on the rib is that of the retailer, not the manufacturer.

It appears to be a very good, though not the best quality gun; value would likely run about $4000, but others might be able to provide a better figure.

Jim

dlshooting · 09-18-2012, 07:40 AM

hrf, Jim and Alpo, thank you very much for such detailed information. is there any way to determine the original German manufacturer or is that nearly impossible? Thanks again for any help.

hrf · 09-18-2012, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlshooting

hrf, Jim and Alpo, thank you very much for such detailed information. is there any way to determine the original German manufacturer or is that nearly impossible? Thanks again for any help.

Manufacturer may be plural, as many of these were "guild" guns, where different craftsmen participated in the manufacture.

A google search finds other E. Kirchhoff guns, but no details about him.

Try the forum I posted http://www.germanguns.com/ They should be able to help.

Max Donovan · 09-27-2012, 11:10 PM

Nice drilling. Be sure to lift the extractor before you replace the barrels in the action. The fronts of the extractor legs already have a little damage from someone who overlooked this. This is a "snap action" because the underlever snaps shut when you close the barrels. The earlier levers swung to the side and you had to pull them closed.

09-17-2012, 08:46 AM	#2
dlshooting Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 6	Re: Drilling (Need some information) More pics Attached Images

09-17-2012, 08:50 AM	#4
dlshooting Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 6	Re: Drilling (Need some information) Last pic. Thanks again for any information. Attached Images

09-17-2012, 09:28 AM	#5
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,648	Re: Drilling (Need some information) Post #3, picture #1. Better, sharper, larger pictures of those stamps would help. The shape of the crowns over the letters, which letters there are, numbers inside circles, they all mean something. Try sprinkling some baby powder on there and then wipe it with your finger. That should clear the surface but all the stamps should stay filled with baby powder, giving nice white markings to examine. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

09-17-2012, 11:03 AM	#7
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,276	Re: Drilling (Need some information) Drillings are a specialized field, and you might get the most definitive answer on the German Gun Collectors forum: http://www.germanguns.com/upload/forum.php

09-17-2012, 11:17 AM	#8
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,648	Re: Drilling (Need some information) Both the crown over what looks like a IV, but what I think is a W, and the eagle next to it, look like East German proofs. That would make it post-war. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

09-17-2012, 08:45 AM	#1
dlshooting Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 6	Drilling (Need some information) I have recently encountered a Drilling and the individual that owns it was looking for more information on it. Anything would be helpful i.e. maker and particular model? Here is the information I have found on the gun itself: On BBL rib: E Kirchhoff Dieringhausen RHLD (bblis 27") Underside of BBL: 16Ga, 16Ga, 7.8mm Nitro 15gr Serial number 119? I tried to take some good pictures. Any idea on maker and an average price point? It appears in very good overall condition. Thank you Mike Attached Images -->

09-17-2012, 08:48 AM	#3
dlshooting Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 6	Re: Drilling (Need some information) A few more pics Attached Images

09-17-2012, 09:43 AM	#6
dlshooting Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 6	Re: Drilling (Need some information) Closer pics Attached Images

09-17-2012, 11:33 AM	#9
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,648	Re: Drilling (Need some information) The second picture in #6. Proofed for smokeless (Nitro), using 15 grams of powder and a Steel Jacketed Bullet (Stahl Mantel Geschoss) The bird over the Crown-over-U looks like the final black powder proof. The more I look, the confuseder I get. The height of the cross on the crowns looks East German, 1950 to 1992, Suhl proofhouse. Everything else appears to be 1891 to 1939. Look at #10 on this page. Crown over W - choked barrel. http://www.shotguns.se/html/germany_1890-1945.html Then the 6th one in the second table here. Also crown over W. Also choked barrel. The height of the cross. http://www.shotguns.se/html/east_germany.html I'm pretty sure it's German. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

09-17-2012, 06:55 PM	#11
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Drilling (Need some information) Today Dieringhausen is in Nordrhein Westfãlen, but I assume that when the gun was made it was in the Rheinland (Rhld.) In any case, as hrf says, it was never in East Germany, and the crown/W is the pre-WWII proofmark for a choked shotgun barrel. The Crown/U was the definitive proof for arms proved in the finished state. All the marks on the shotgun barrels are correct for 16 gauge. The rifle barrel is marked 7.8 and 57, indicating chambering for 8x57JR or JRS, probably the former, but there is no way to be sure, so it would be best to assume that it is a JR and uses a .318" bullet rather than the JRS bullet at .323". I doubt the gun was actually made in the Rhineland, it was probably made and proved in the Suhl area and the name on the rib is that of the retailer, not the manufacturer. It appears to be a very good, though not the best quality gun; value would likely run about $4000, but others might be able to provide a better figure. Jim

09-18-2012, 07:40 AM	#12
dlshooting Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 6	Re: Drilling (Need some information) hrf, Jim and Alpo, thank you very much for such detailed information. is there any way to determine the original German manufacturer or is that nearly impossible? Thanks again for any help.

09-27-2012, 11:10 PM	#14
Max Donovan V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 77	Re: Drilling (Need some information) Nice drilling. Be sure to lift the extractor before you replace the barrels in the action. The fronts of the extractor legs already have a little damage from someone who overlooked this. This is a "snap action" because the underlever snaps shut when you close the barrels. The earlier levers swung to the side and you had to pull them closed.