How to I get a full auto?

[g2gunny]

Is it possible to get a full auto preban gun. I have heard you need a class III license, but how do I get that?

Also how much does one cost?

[Shooter45]

This info should get you started.

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=73885

[CampingJosh]

The link Shooter provided is all the info you need.

To own a full auto gun, US citizens just need money, time, and a clean background.

[Maine04657]

Originally Posted by g2gunny

Is it possible to get a full auto preban gun. I have heard you need a class III license, but how do I get that?

Also how much does one cost?

Easy. Find a class 2 or 3 SOT in your area go see him pick one out pay and get your paperwork done send that and a 200 dollar check to the ATF and wait wait wait a little more then in 5 or 6 months your stamp comes in and you own a mg.

Personal recommendations from me. If you have kids family or spouse you want to be able to use the NFA item without you being there or you want to make leaving it to them easy get a NFA trust. This also removes the requirement for fingerprint cards pictures and Local LE sign off.

Now with a MG you can only buy a PRE 1986 ( no such thing as pre ban mg ) so this means availability is low and cost is high. You can get a new mac for 4 grand aprox then you move up to say a m16 for about 15 grand and up and up.

For fun factor I recommend unless your doing it for collector reasons get a m16, mac or H&K as these allow you to go with different calibers a m16 you can out any upper you want on it form 22lr to wildcats all pistol calibers and such. Mac you can use 45 9mm and 22lr with a H&K you can switch the trigger pack between guns so you can have a 5.56, .308 and a 9mm. The H&K are not cheap a auto sear alone will run you over 10 gran

I have been a NFA ( national Firearms Act ) collector for a long time and have gone through the process may times.

[medalguy]

Don't forget, you need ammo too. Lots of ammo. And something to wipe the big big grin off your face.

[Alpo]

Originally Posted by CampingJosh

The link Shooter provided is all the info you need.

To own a full auto gun, US citizens just need money, time, and a clean background.

And live in one of the 37 states that allows them. Mustn't forget that.

[Brass Tacks]

There is another alternative. From the OP's name it is possible he has already availed.

There are several well known American organizations that offer, after signing on the line, shelter, meals, travel, free health care, clothing, automatic weapons, and all the ammo you can shoot, free of charge. In fact they will pay a salary to boot.

[CampingJosh]

Originally Posted by Alpo

And live in one of the 37 states that allows them. Mustn't forget that.

Oh course! How did I forget?

My home state doesn't allow SBS, but AOW is just fine. So a pistol-grip 12 gauge with 12 inch barrels is just fine unless it ever had a stock put on it.

Still, three years later, trying to find a 12 or 20 gauge SXS that has never had a stock.
I've pretty well decided that I'm going to have better luck working through the state legislature than I am getting one of the importers to help me.

[Maine04657]

Originally Posted by medalguy

Don't forget, you need ammo too. Lots of ammo. And something to wipe the big big grin off your face.

I buy 5.56 by the case 1000 rounds can go pretty fast. I use the 22 upper on my m16 allot and that is much cheaper. 1000 rounds of 5.56 about 400 bucks 100 rounds of 22lr 40 bucks.


Here is a vid of me dumping 50 rounds of 22lr in the back yard. Time it then see how long it woudl take to fire off 1000 rounds. The rifle does have a suppressor on it so it runs faster. Cyclic rate goes up when you use a suppressor due to back pressure.
http://youtu.be/26aYzJzlZNE

[nmckenzie]

Originally Posted by Maine04657

NFA trust. This also removes the requirement for fingerprint cards pictures and Local LE sign off.

Used to work for a Class 3, but that was an awful long time ago, so please forgive my ignorance. What's an NFA Trust?

[howlnmad]

Originally Posted by Maine04657

I buy 5.56 by the case 100 rounds can go pretty fast. I use the 22 upper on my m16 allot and that is much cheaper. 1000 rounds of 5.56 about 400 bucks 100 rounds of 22lr 40 bucks.


Here is a vid of me dumping 50 rounds of 22lr in the back yard. Time it then see how long it woudl take to fire off 1000 rounds. The rifle does have a suppressor on it so it runs faster. Cyclic rate goes up when you use a suppressor due to back pressure.
http://youtu.be/26aYzJzlZNE

Well your you-tube vid ran for all of 6 seconds. You can burn up a lot of 22 ammo at that rate.

[Alpo]

Originally Posted by nmckenzie

Used to work for a Class 3, but that was an awful long time ago, so please forgive my ignorance. What's an NFA Trust?

As I understand it, a trust was a way to get around the CLEO sign-off, because there are (hard as this might be to believe) SOME COPS out there that don't believe that law-abiding citizens should own machineguns.

So you set up a trust, and the Trust owns the machinegun. With a Trust there is no CLEO signature, there are no pictures or fingerprints.

And there seems to be some added advantages.

If you own a machinegun, and want to let your buddy Frank go shoot it, you gotta go with him. If you just hand it to him, saying, "Here. Go play. Bring it back when you're done", you've made an illegal transfer of an NFA item. But if Frank is listed on the Trust documents, it's just as much his as it is yours, and he can go play with it whether you are there are not.

When you croak, the guns get held up while the court plays with your will, before it/they can be transferred to your beneficiary. If your kid is part of the trust, the gun(s) can go straight to him. I'm not sure if new paperwork has to be made, taking your name off the Trust, since you are now dead, but the kid has the gun(s) without going through probate. And since it did not go through probate, there is no official court record, somewhere, saying that young Tommy Jones now owns three machineguns. Yes, they know that at the ATF, but they don't know it at the local courthouse, where any bored clerk thumbing through the files could find it.

As I say, that's the way I UNDERSTAND it to work (I could be completely wrong). None of my stuff was done with a Trust. Both sheriffs I've had dealings with have not had any problems with signing off.

[CampingJosh]

Alpo is right. My NFA stuff is owned by a trust, of which my wife and I are both trustees. If we wanted to add someone else to the trust, we can do that very quickly and easily.

There aren't fingerprints, because a trust doesn't have fingers. It's a legal entity of its own, like a corporation. But you don't really have to do anything to keep a trust in effect perpetually, whereas with a corporation has to file taxes annually.

[Maine04657]

Originally Posted by Alpo

So you set up a trust, and the Trust owns the machinegun. With a Trust there is no CLEO signature, there are no pictures or fingerprints.


If you own a machinegun, and want to let your buddy Frank go shoot it, you gotta go with him. If you just hand it to him, saying, "Here. Go play. Bring it back when you're done", you've made an illegal transfer of an NFA item. But if Frank is listed on the Trust documents, it's just as much his as it is yours, and he can go play with it whether you are there are not.

When you croak, the guns get held up while the court plays with your will, before it/they can be transferred to your beneficiary. If your kid is part of the trust, the gun(s) can go straight to him. I'm not sure if new paperwork has to be made, taking your name off the Trust, since you are now dead, but the kid has the gun(s) without going through probate. And since it did not go through probate, there is no official court record, somewhere, saying that young Tommy Jones now owns three machineguns. Yes, they know that at the ATF, but they don't know it at the local courthouse, where any bored clerk thumbing through the files could find it.

As I say, that's the way I UNDERSTAND it to work (I could be completely wrong). None of my stuff was done with a Trust. Both sheriffs I've had dealings with have not had any problems with signing off.

Not quite right.

The trust does own the items ( if bought under the trusts name ) and it does negate the Cleo sign off the fingerprint cards and photo. This is ONE reason for a trust. NFA items can be passed to IMMEDIATE family ONLY without re-stamping so if you have step children grandchildren and such the trust makes it easy to leave it tot them.

Only the CO-TRUSTEES can have the items and it is nto just machine guns but any NFA item in the trust SBS SBR AOW suppressor or MG. The beneficiaries listed ARE NOT owners and can not have the items with one of the trustees being there.

If the children or whoever the beneficiary is as long as there are no more trustees left has to file form 4's for ALL the items they are keeping from the trust but does NOT have to buy a new stamp.

The local court has no standing when it comes to a NFA or other trust unless it is contested but as most truest are done long before death the chance of contesting one are nill. There is NO legal requirement to tell ANY local LE or court that a person has NFA items in a trust UNLESS it is a local law and there are only a few states that require registering NFA.

My grandson is 4 and he is a CO-trustee on my/ our trust as well as many other family members.


If you want or think you need a trust then any good SOT will be able to help you. You can do a Quicken trust for under 100 bucks or go all out for a lawyer to draw one up for 500 to well over a grand. Make sure the lawyer knows what NFA is and make sure he has done them before. Most all big lawyers will say you should do a trust with them and not a Quicken one or other low budget ones because theirs are able to stand up. If the trust is no
then the ATF will DENY it! If they accept it then it is FINE...

[Maine04657]

Originally Posted by CampingJosh

But you don't really have to do anything to keep a trust in effect perpetually

A NFA trust does not go on in perpetuity. ONLY the co OWNERS IE trustees at the time the trust is FORMED are owners you can NOT ADD TRUSTEES you can add beneficiaries though. When the ORIGINAL trustees die the trust is done. You can not pass the trust on to your kids or anyone else the trust is only in effect as long as there is one ORIGINAL trustee left.

Also when the NFA items are left to a beneficiary they are transferred on a form 4 no new stamp required ( IE no charge ) however if they make a trust then they have to pay the tax for a new stamp on each item that was in the trust.

[medalguy]

Yep, lots of ammo. 1000 rounds won't last very long.

[CampingJosh]

Originally Posted by Maine04657

A NFA trust does not go on in perpetuity.

Correct. But you took my quote out of context.

I know that a trust isn't going to still be good in 800 years. I was contrasting a trust, which requires a one-time setup, with a corporation. A corporation has to file taxes every year. If you don't file taxes for some time, the corporation no longer exists, which leaves the person with an unregistered NFA item!

ONLY the co OWNERS IE trustees at the time the trust is FORMED are owners you can NOT ADD TRUSTEES you can add beneficiaries though. When the ORIGINAL trustees die the trust is done. You can not pass the trust on to your kids or anyone else the trust is only in effect as long as there is one ORIGINAL trustee left.

Huh? I've never heard that before.

It's my understanding that NFA trusts are just like other trusts. If the trust is set up so that the grantor has the authority to change trustees (which is normal for a revocable trust), why can't the trustee change? Amend the trust, and it's done.

Do you have an ATF ruling to back your claim? I'm confused, because that's the exact opposite of how trusts normally work.

[Maine04657]

Originally Posted by CampingJosh

Huh? I've never heard that before.

It's my understanding that NFA trusts are just like other trusts. If the trust is set up so that the grantor has the authority to change trustees (which is normal for a revocable trust), why can't the trustee change? Amend the trust, and it's done.

Do you have an ATF ruling to back your claim? I'm confused, because that's the exact opposite of how trusts normally work.

That is why they are called NFA trusts and not trusts. NFA items are not NORMAL either in regulation or logic. Feel free to call the ATF and ask them or any lawyer who deals with them.

[Maine04657]

Originally Posted by medalguy

Yep, lots of ammo. 1000 rounds won't last very long.

I don't like it when people have more ammo then me... LOL

[soundguy]

easy to fix!

[CampingJosh]

Originally Posted by Maine04657

That is why they are called NFA trusts and not trusts. NFA items are not NORMAL either in regulation or logic. Feel free to call the ATF and ask them or any lawyer who deals with them.

An NFA trust is just a trust that holds NFA items. The trust is the owner. But it's still just a trust. It can own a silencer, a machine gun, 500 acres of farmland, and a cruise ship. Still just a trust.

The trust is created, and all the terms of the trust defined, before the trust owns any NFA items. The stuff the trust owns can't change the terms of the trust.

Indiana law specifies that the settlor has the authority to amend or revoke a trust unless that trust expressly provides that the trust is irrevocable. The naming of trustee(s) is part of the trust, and therefore the trustee(s) can be amended. (IC 30-4-3-1.5)

So please, if you have an ATF ruling that states differently, share it. Otherwise I'm going to have to believe the law of my state.

[Maine04657]

Originally Posted by CampingJosh

An NFA trust is just a trust that holds NFA items. The trust is the owner. But it's still just a trust. It can own a silencer, a machine gun, 500 acres of farmland, and a cruise ship. Still just a trust.

The trust is created, and all the terms of the trust defined, before the trust owns any NFA items. The stuff the trust owns can't change the terms of the trust.

Indiana law specifies that the settlor has the authority to amend or revoke a trust unless that trust expressly provides that the trust is irrevocable. The naming of trustee(s) is part of the trust, and therefore the trustee(s) can be amended. (IC 30-4-3-1.5)

So please, if you have an ATF ruling that states differently, share it. Otherwise I'm going to have to believe the law of my state.

Again your trying to use logic. The links you give do not mention a NFA trust. ALL and I mean EVERY legal NFA item must be registered and sale approved by the ATF. If we where to apply your logic then person gets a NFA trust buys 10 NFA items. That person dies we just add a new name to the NFA trust before death then he/ she gets the items as the trust in your mind is still valid. So this would mean there would be way of knowing who had the items. Does this sound like something the ATF is going to allow? Following your thinking one could keep a NFA trust going forever by just changing the name at the top. Never doing a transfer of any type? Or what if they SELL the NFA trust. You can sell a irrevocable or revocable trust to another person. If this was allowed with a NFA trust the ATF would loose track of every NFA item and every dealer would place every item in a trust as doing so would negate the sale all further tax stamps on already existing NFA items especially big ticket MG's. You feel free to try any of this let me know how far you get.

[CampingJosh]

Originally Posted by Maine04657

Again your trying to use logic. The links you give do not mention a NFA trust. ALL and I mean EVERY legal NFA item must be registered and sale approved by the ATF. If we where to apply your logic then person gets a NFA trust buys 10 NFA items. That person dies we just add a new name to the NFA trust before death then he/ she gets the items as the trust in your mind is still valid. So this would mean there would be way of knowing who had the items. Does this sound like something the ATF is going to allow? Following your thinking one could keep a NFA trust going forever by just changing the name at the top. Never doing a transfer of any type? Or what if they SELL the NFA trust. You can sell a irrevocable or revocable trust to another person. If this was allowed with a NFA trust the ATF would loose track of every NFA item and every dealer would place every item in a trust as doing so would negate the sale all further tax stamps on already existing NFA items especially big ticket MG's. You feel free to try any of this let me know how far you get.

There is no such thing as an "NFA trust"! It's just a trust that holds happens NFA items! It's not a magical, different type of legal instrument. You don't need a separate trust to hold NFA items if you're already the trustee for your own trust.

The part of a trust that can't be changed is the grantor/settlor, the person who funds it initially. When that person dies, the trust become irrevocable (if not already) and the stuff in the trust does whatever the trust says, often moving on to the named beneficiary (in the case of NFA items, on a tax-free Form 4).
But the person who is responsible for holding the property of the trust, the trustee, can be changed.

And a trust can be sold, sort of. The beneficiary has a legal stake in the trust that can be sold. But the beneficiary isn't the one who possess the items.
A trustee's position can't be sold by the trustee. It could, I guess, be sold by grantor/settlor, but only an idiot would buy it. The grantor could change the trustee again ten minutes later and keep all the money; the buyer would have no recourse.

I'm asking again, what evidence do you have that trusts holding NFA items act differently than all other legal trusts?

(Note to all Readers: I am not an attorney in any state, and I'm definitely not your attorney. Don't take anything I say as legal or other professional advice.)

[Maine04657]

Originally Posted by CampingJosh

There is no such thing as an "NFA trust"! It's just a trust that holds happens NFA items! It's not a magical, different type of legal instrument. You don't need a separate trust to hold NFA items if you're already the trustee for your own trust.

The part of a trust that can't be changed is the grantor/settlor, the person who funds it initially. When that person dies, the trust become irrevocable (if not already) and the stuff in the trust does whatever the trust says, often moving on to the named beneficiary (in the case of NFA items, on a tax-free Form 4).
But the person who is responsible for holding the property of the trust, the trustee, can be changed.

And a trust can be sold, sort of. The beneficiary has a legal stake in the trust that can be sold. But the beneficiary isn't the one who possess the items.
A trustee's position can't be sold by the trustee. It could, I guess, be sold by grantor/settlor, but only an idiot would buy it. The grantor could change the trustee again ten minutes later and keep all the money; the buyer would have no recourse.

I'm asking again, what evidence do you have that trusts holding NFA items act differently than all other legal trusts?

(Note to all Readers: I am not an attorney in any state, and I'm definitely not your attorney. Don't take anything I say as legal or other professional advice.)

I am not sure I can elaborate further. Also you may want to know there are REVOCABLE and IRREVOCABLE trusts. The former ( what most NFA trust are ) is basically nothing more then a will. If you find a lawyer who tells you he can make a NFA go forever by changing the name or a way to sell the trust with all it's contents please let me know there is a fortune to be made doing so.

[CampingJosh]

Originally Posted by Maine04657

Also you may want to know there are REVOCABLE and IRREVOCABLE trusts. The former ( what most NFA trust are ) is basically nothing more then a will. If you find a lawyer who tells you he can make a NFA go forever by changing the name or a way to sell the trust with all it's contents please let me know there is a fortune to be made doing so.

Trusts are NOT wills. Different legal instrument for different purposes. Yes, they are both often used for estate planning, but that doesn't make them "basically" the same thing.

And I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I am not saying that you can pass ownership of a trust from person to person perpetually. I didn't say anything like that. I said that if you create a trust and then never do anything else with it for the rest of your life, there is still a trust. This is in contrast to a corporation. If you create a corporation and never do anything else with it for the rest of your life, the corporation goes out of existence. (In Indiana, a corporation has to file a report with the secretary of state every two years, and failure to do so can start the process dissolve the corporation.)
So, my point was that trusts are a do-it-once legal entity, while corporations require constant upkeep.

The part about "making a NFA go forever by changing the name" or selling a trust completely is not at all what I said. I don't know what I wrote that gave you that idea, but it's not something I intended to convey.

The trust owns the property, and the trustees possesses/holds title of the property. But changing the trustee doesn't transfer the NFA item, as the trust is still the owner.