Used wrong primers - The Firearms Forum

Spanky · 12-20-2009, 11:53 AM

Ok, here's the story. I loaded some 44 magnum cartridges with 10.3gr of W231 and Nosler 240gr hp bullets. The problem is I used large rifle primers (CCI 200)by mistake.

I loaded 50 catridges and don't want to pull them but, I want to be safe.

So what do you think, other than I need to pay more attention to what I am doing.

Spanky

gdmoody · 12-20-2009, 12:06 PM

Neither one of my manuals gives a load for Win 231 in the 44 Mag. If your manual gives the 10.3 grains as a low to mid-range load then it should be safe to shoot. On the other hand if the 10.3 grains of W231 is in the high/hot range then pull the bullets and start again.

Alpo · 12-20-2009, 12:53 PM

I couldn't find a 231 load for a 240 jacketed. I did find one for a 180 jacketed, though. Checking the other powders, that they gave loads for both 180 and 240 (IMR4227, 2400, SR4756), the 240 bullet loads seem to be around 75 to 80% of the 180 bullet loads. Based on that, with a max listed load of 13.0 of 231, a max load for the 240 should be in the 9.7 grains range.

Where did you get your load?

RandyP · 12-20-2009, 02:50 PM

The Hodgdon website shows this for Win 231=HP-38 for a 240gn JHP:

Cartridge: 44 Remington Magnum
Load Type: Pistol
Starting Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maximum Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

240 GR. NOS JHP Winchester 231 .429" 1.600" 8.0 1021 23,800 CUP 11.0 1272 37,800 CUP
240 GR. NOS JHP Hodgdon HP-38 .429" 1.600" 8.0 1021 23,800 CUP 11.0 1272 37,800 CUP

For your reading pleasure....their website provides a very good free reloading resource:

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

woolleyworm · 12-20-2009, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spanky

Ok, here's the story. I loaded some 44 magnum cartridges with 10.3gr of W231 and Nosler 240gr hp bullets. The problem is I used large rifle primers (CCI 200)by mistake.

I loaded 50 catridges and don't want to pull them but, I want to be safe.

So what do you think, other than I need to pay more attention to what I am doing.

Spanky

To say anything other than "pull'em and correct'em" I think would be shooting from the hip and praying for a gun that is still intact after the first round. In all reality, it may be ok, but ask yourself this.... I have a near max load and an untested combination of components; Is it worth the undetermined risk to shoot it? Me personally, I would pull and start over, only 50 rounds, not a huge $$ loss or time.

I have an idea on testing it; but while much safer in theory, still deem it too risky for an unknown potential. Only 50 rounds, pull it, be safe and we've all had a good reminder to double check our components.

johnlives4christ · 12-20-2009, 07:29 PM

i dont reload so i wouldnt know the dangers of that. but i would think it would make a difference as to what type of firearm you were planning to shoot them in. if it was a marlin 1894 i would expect it to take more pressure safely than a sw29

deadin · 12-20-2009, 07:47 PM

Anybody know which is hotter, A regular large rifle primer or a Magnum large pistol primer?
I would guess that the rifle primers are made of a stronger metal because of the higher pressures in rifles. This also might cause ignition problems as the striker/hammer strike is generally weaker in pistols than in rifles.

My personal opinion would be to pull them down and start over. The time spent would be a lot cheaper than a blown or damaged gun.

Spanky · 12-20-2009, 08:13 PM

Thanks guys.

I was hopeing for a solid "You'll be fine". Since that is not the case I'll break out the bullet puller.

pinecone70 · 12-20-2009, 08:15 PM

Safety first!!

RandyP · 12-20-2009, 08:19 PM

Hi Spanky,

IMHO you have chosen.....wisely.

Whether or not total strangers on the 'net "thought" you'd be just fine would have NO impact on the ER nurses after a kaboom.

I have NO idea in fact whether or not a rifle primer equals a magnum pistol one or vice versa, but you will never go far wrong erring on the side of caution. A good reminder to us all to double then triple check as we reload. Every reloader is their sole QA inspector too.

warnerwh · 12-20-2009, 09:15 PM

I keep on the table what I am using while I am reloading. Both the powder and the primers are obvious.

woolleyworm · 12-20-2009, 09:32 PM

LRP are taller and more potent than LPP's. and yes, a harder cup. There's no way to tell how they'd react unless under controlled circumstances in order to be safe. I think Randy stated it well, "Every reloader is their sole QA inspector too."

scrat · 12-21-2009, 02:17 AM

Not too sure about the Primer. load though maybe ok.
240 grain JHP (Jacketed Hollow Point) or JSP
Bullseye 8.9 gr. 1,215 FPS
Unique 10.3 gr. 1,250
2400 18.7 gr. 1,440
2400 21.9 gr. 1,642 in rifle (max)
IMR4227 22.0 gr. 1,301
IMR4227 24.0 gr. 1,458 max
Universal 8.0 gr. 1,018
Universal 10.2 gr. 1,246 max
HP38/W231 8.0 gr. 1,021
HP38/W231 11.0 gr. 1,272 max
HS6 12.0 gr. 1,211
HS6 15.1 gr. 1,417 max
No. 2 10.0 gr. 1,250
No. 5 14.4 gr. 1,383
No. 9 20.8 gr. 1,318
A 5744 24.0 gr. 1,413
231 11.2 gr. 1,280 296/H110 23.0 gr. 1,413
296/H110 24.0 gr. 1,430 Max
296/H110 24.2 gr. 1,590 (a bit over max)
Lil'Gun 22.5 gr. 1,465
Lil'Gun 24.5 gr. 1,582 max
Titegroup 9.0 gr. 1,219
Titegroup 10.0 gr. 1,292 max

scrat · 12-21-2009, 02:20 AM

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

240 GR. NOS JHP Winchester 231 .429" 1.600" 8.0 1021 23,800 CUP 11.0 1272 37,800 CUP

Load is ok from the Hogdon site.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

johnlives4christ · 12-21-2009, 02:57 AM

i would take into consideration what type of gun they were going to be used in. i would probably shoot them in a rifle. an h&r handi rifle would take them for sure. think of it as an excuse to buy a new rifle if you dont already have one.

Alpo · 12-21-2009, 08:10 AM

If you elect to shoot them (and I think you shouldn't) do not even think about shooting them in a rifle with a tubular magazine. The primers are too tall. They will extend higher than the rim of the case. That's asking for magazine explosion.

mncarpenter · 12-21-2009, 09:04 AM

If the rifle primers have harder cups, you could have some pretty erratic ignition and perhaps a slower burn on your powder, raising your pressures excessively.That could hurt...

scrat · 12-21-2009, 10:39 AM

Yep i agree with the guys. pull the bullets if you have a revolver. pull the bullets. load up the shells pop the primers. Then start over.

Suicide*Ride · 12-21-2009, 01:34 PM

Since the primers are pretty much a write-off, I'd at least use this experience as a learning tool. If you have any extra large primers (pistol or rifle), now would be a good time to compare them (flame, cup hardness, etc.). Don't waste your time if all you have is a rifle.

IMHO, the safest way to "pull" the primers is to shoot them, & then deprime the brass normally. The anvil in the primer cup will [most likely] be damaged by the decapping pin &, again IMHO, should NOT BE REUSED! Even if you're good & can pop the primer(s) w/o them going bang, it/they should be discarded.

Hopefully, my reloading Brethren will agree.

Good luck w/ the pulls!

Oh...... almost forgot!! Every time you have to pull the ram handle on an improperly loaded round during disassembling, you will say the words "I will check & verify my loading components".

If you're lucky, you'll only have to say it 50 times.

(100 times if you don't have a kinetic puller!

)

SR

RandyP · 12-21-2009, 02:25 PM

I can only speak for my limited experience, but I have had occasion to deprime live brass on the turret without a problem. Safety glasses wouldn't hurt of course.

JLA · 12-22-2009, 06:32 PM

I can only find 231 listed for the .44 mag under reduced loads. Seems to me a 10 and a half grain charge of 231 in a .44 mag case would produce a rather stout and ballistically erratic load. there are far better choices for full power .44 mags (2400, h110/w296, lil' gun are my favs). I would pull the bullets, reduce the charge 15% and re seat them and shoot them to be safe

Popgunner · 12-23-2009, 03:13 PM

For sure break them down & start over. You do have the chance to do an experiment once you have the bullets & powder out of the cases & that's to pop the primers(or try to) in your revolver if you have one. Let us know how many out of 50 go off with the lower energy of a revolver hammer strike.

RustyFN · 12-23-2009, 06:41 PM

I would pull them down and reuse the components. You can pop the primers out with the sizing die ( slow and easy ) and reuse them in range ammo no problem.

JLA · 12-23-2009, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popgunner

For sure break them down & start over. You do have the chance to do an experiment once you have the bullets & powder out of the cases & that's to pop the primers(or try to) in your revolver if you have one. Let us know how many out of 50 go off with the lower energy of a revolver hammer strike.

They will go pop. I have used rifle primers in a pinch before... They are high and pose a problem in anything semi-automatic. but should be ok for revolvers. I dont recommend using them in pistol cartridges deliberately, but if your out of primers and need a quick box to test a gun or whatever they work...

rugerman · 02-23-2010, 03:49 PM

Since rifle primmers are taller than pistol primmers they may keep your revolver cylinder from turning since they may rub on the recoil sheld and when you fire them the recoil may cause one of the cartridges in the cylinder to go off when they set back due to recoil. If I fired them I would do it singlely, not with a full cylinder.

12-20-2009, 11:53 AM	#1
Spanky Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: The land of Sunshine, the best Citrus and the Most Beautiful Women in the World. Posts: 25	Used wrong primers Ok, here's the story. I loaded some 44 magnum cartridges with 10.3gr of W231 and Nosler 240gr hp bullets. The problem is I used large rifle primers (CCI 200)by mistake. I loaded 50 catridges and don't want to pull them but, I want to be safe. So what do you think, other than I need to pay more attention to what I am doing. Spanky __________________ "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then" - Bob Seger Well I'm not a Gynegologist, but I'll take a look. -->

12-20-2009, 12:06 PM	#2
gdmoody Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Northeast Georgia Contributor Posts: 6,325	Re: Used wrong primers Neither one of my manuals gives a load for Win 231 in the 44 Mag. If your manual gives the 10.3 grains as a low to mid-range load then it should be safe to shoot. On the other hand if the 10.3 grains of W231 is in the high/hot range then pull the bullets and start again. __________________ NRA Endowment Member GeorgiaCarry.Org Member Retired US Army Postal Worker Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an ass whoopin'.....author unknown (but obviously brilliant)

12-20-2009, 12:53 PM	#3
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,659	Re: Used wrong primers I couldn't find a 231 load for a 240 jacketed. I did find one for a 180 jacketed, though. Checking the other powders, that they gave loads for both 180 and 240 (IMR4227, 2400, SR4756), the 240 bullet loads seem to be around 75 to 80% of the 180 bullet loads. Based on that, with a max listed load of 13.0 of 231, a max load for the 240 should be in the 9.7 grains range. Where did you get your load? __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies. Last edited by Alpo; 12-20-2009 at 12:56 PM..

12-20-2009, 02:50 PM	#4
RandyP V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 430	Re: Used wrong primers The Hodgdon website shows this for Win 231=HP-38 for a 240gn JHP: Cartridge: 44 Remington Magnum Load Type: Pistol Starting Loads -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maximum Loads -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 240 GR. NOS JHP Winchester 231 .429" 1.600" 8.0 1021 23,800 CUP 11.0 1272 37,800 CUP 240 GR. NOS JHP Hodgdon HP-38 .429" 1.600" 8.0 1021 23,800 CUP 11.0 1272 37,800 CUP For your reading pleasure....their website provides a very good free reloading resource: http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp __________________ Lee Anniversary and Lee Classic 4-Hole Turret, presently reloading .380, 7.62 Nagant (32-20), 9mm and 45ACP Last edited by RandyP; 12-20-2009 at 02:53 PM..

12-20-2009, 07:29 PM	#6
johnlives4christ Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,828	Re: Used wrong primers i dont reload so i wouldnt know the dangers of that. but i would think it would make a difference as to what type of firearm you were planning to shoot them in. if it was a marlin 1894 i would expect it to take more pressure safely than a sw29

12-20-2009, 07:47 PM	#7
deadin Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 858	Re: Used wrong primers Anybody know which is hotter, A regular large rifle primer or a Magnum large pistol primer? I would guess that the rifle primers are made of a stronger metal because of the higher pressures in rifles. This also might cause ignition problems as the striker/hammer strike is generally weaker in pistols than in rifles. My personal opinion would be to pull them down and start over. The time spent would be a lot cheaper than a blown or damaged gun.

12-20-2009, 08:13 PM	#8
Spanky Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: The land of Sunshine, the best Citrus and the Most Beautiful Women in the World. Posts: 25	Re: Used wrong primers Thanks guys. I was hopeing for a solid "You'll be fine". Since that is not the case I'll break out the bullet puller. __________________ "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then" - Bob Seger Well I'm not a Gynegologist, but I'll take a look.

12-20-2009, 08:15 PM	#9
pinecone70 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Minnesota Gal! Posts: 4,730	Re: Used wrong primers Safety first!! __________________ _____________________________________________ "Miss Scarlet, in the library...with a revolver...."

12-20-2009, 08:19 PM	#10
RandyP V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 430	Re: Used wrong primers Hi Spanky, IMHO you have chosen.....wisely. Whether or not total strangers on the 'net "thought" you'd be just fine would have NO impact on the ER nurses after a kaboom. I have NO idea in fact whether or not a rifle primer equals a magnum pistol one or vice versa, but you will never go far wrong erring on the side of caution. A good reminder to us all to double then triple check as we reload. Every reloader is their sole QA inspector too. __________________ Lee Anniversary and Lee Classic 4-Hole Turret, presently reloading .380, 7.62 Nagant (32-20), 9mm and 45ACP

12-20-2009, 09:15 PM	#11
warnerwh Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 7	Re: Used wrong primers I keep on the table what I am using while I am reloading. Both the powder and the primers are obvious.

12-20-2009, 09:32 PM	#12
woolleyworm TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: SW Fort Worth Contributor Posts: 4,883	Re: Used wrong primers LRP are taller and more potent than LPP's. and yes, a harder cup. There's no way to tell how they'd react unless under controlled circumstances in order to be safe. I think Randy stated it well, "Every reloader is their sole QA inspector too." __________________ . What are you gonna do, talk the alien to death? -- (on Sigourney Weaver's worry about Guns in Aliens) "Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands." "I carry a small gun to compensate for my huge Blue press." .

12-21-2009, 02:17 AM	#13
scrat V.I.P. Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 86	Re: Used wrong primers Not too sure about the Primer. load though maybe ok. 240 grain JHP (Jacketed Hollow Point) or JSP Bullseye 8.9 gr. 1,215 FPS Unique 10.3 gr. 1,250 2400 18.7 gr. 1,440 2400 21.9 gr. 1,642 in rifle (max) IMR4227 22.0 gr. 1,301 IMR4227 24.0 gr. 1,458 max Universal 8.0 gr. 1,018 Universal 10.2 gr. 1,246 max HP38/W231 8.0 gr. 1,021 HP38/W231 11.0 gr. 1,272 max HS6 12.0 gr. 1,211 HS6 15.1 gr. 1,417 max No. 2 10.0 gr. 1,250 No. 5 14.4 gr. 1,383 No. 9 20.8 gr. 1,318 A 5744 24.0 gr. 1,413 231 11.2 gr. 1,280 296/H110 23.0 gr. 1,413 296/H110 24.0 gr. 1,430 Max 296/H110 24.2 gr. 1,590 (a bit over max) Lil'Gun 22.5 gr. 1,465 Lil'Gun 24.5 gr. 1,582 max Titegroup 9.0 gr. 1,219 Titegroup 10.0 gr. 1,292 max

12-21-2009, 02:20 AM	#14
scrat V.I.P. Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 86	Re: Used wrong primers Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure 240 GR. NOS JHP Winchester 231 .429" 1.600" 8.0 1021 23,800 CUP 11.0 1272 37,800 CUP Load is ok from the Hogdon site. http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

12-21-2009, 02:57 AM	#15
johnlives4christ Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,828	Re: Used wrong primers i would take into consideration what type of gun they were going to be used in. i would probably shoot them in a rifle. an h&r handi rifle would take them for sure. think of it as an excuse to buy a new rifle if you dont already have one.

12-21-2009, 08:10 AM	#16
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,659	Re: Used wrong primers If you elect to shoot them (and I think you shouldn't) do not even think about shooting them in a rifle with a tubular magazine. The primers are too tall. They will extend higher than the rim of the case. That's asking for magazine explosion. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

12-21-2009, 09:04 AM	#17
mncarpenter V.I.P. Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Minnesota Contributor Posts: 479	Re: Used wrong primers If the rifle primers have harder cups, you could have some pretty erratic ignition and perhaps a slower burn on your powder, raising your pressures excessively.That could hurt... __________________ *"No arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is as formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women."- Ronald Reagan* *"Remember to have your democrats neutered or spayed" -Ann Coulter*

12-21-2009, 10:39 AM	#18
scrat V.I.P. Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 86	Re: Used wrong primers Yep i agree with the guys. pull the bullets if you have a revolver. pull the bullets. load up the shells pop the primers. Then start over.

12-21-2009, 01:34 PM	#19
Suicide*Ride Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Golden, Colorado Posts: 1,340	Re: Used wrong primers Since the primers are pretty much a write-off, I'd at least use this experience as a learning tool. If you have any extra large primers (pistol or rifle), now would be a good time to compare them (flame, cup hardness, etc.). Don't waste your time if all you have is a rifle. IMHO, the safest way to "pull" the primers is to shoot them, & then deprime the brass normally. The anvil in the primer cup will [most likely] be damaged by the decapping pin &, again IMHO, should NOT BE REUSED! Even if you're good & can pop the primer(s) w/o them going *bang, it/they should be discarded. Hopefully, my reloading Brethren will agree. Good luck w/ the pulls! Oh...... almost forgot!! Every time you have to pull the ram handle on an improperly loaded round during disassembling, you will say the words "I will check & verify my loading components". If you're lucky, you'll only have to say it 50 times. (100 times if you don't have a kinetic puller! ) SR __________________ "The price of FREEDOM can be seen here"* ******(the sign outside every VA hospital)****** In an emergency, people don't rise to the occasion, but are reduced to their level of training. When something is trying to eat you, it is hard to get off a good shot! "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Twain

12-21-2009, 02:25 PM	#20
RandyP V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 430	Re: Used wrong primers I can only speak for my limited experience, but I have had occasion to deprime live brass on the turret without a problem. Safety glasses wouldn't hurt of course. __________________ Lee Anniversary and Lee Classic 4-Hole Turret, presently reloading .380, 7.62 Nagant (32-20), 9mm and 45ACP

12-22-2009, 06:32 PM	#21
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,315	Re: Used wrong primers I can only find 231 listed for the .44 mag under reduced loads. Seems to me a 10 and a half grain charge of 231 in a .44 mag case would produce a rather stout and ballistically erratic load. there are far better choices for full power .44 mags (2400, h110/w296, lil' gun are my favs). I would pull the bullets, reduce the charge 15% and re seat them and shoot them to be safe __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

12-23-2009, 03:13 PM	#22
Popgunner Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Contributor Posts: 1,764	Re: Used wrong primers For sure break them down & start over. You do have the chance to do an experiment once you have the bullets & powder out of the cases & that's to pop the primers(or try to) in your revolver if you have one. Let us know how many out of 50 go off with the lower energy of a revolver hammer strike.

12-23-2009, 06:41 PM	#23
RustyFN Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: West Virginia Posts: 592	Re: Used wrong primers I would pull them down and reuse the components. You can pop the primers out with the sizing die ( slow and easy ) and reuse them in range ammo no problem.

02-23-2010, 03:49 PM	#25
rugerman Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 30	Re: Used wrong primers Since rifle primmers are taller than pistol primmers they may keep your revolver cylinder from turning since they may rub on the recoil sheld and when you fire them the recoil may cause one of the cartridges in the cylinder to go off when they set back due to recoil. If I fired them I would do it singlely, not with a full cylinder.