Need Info on Iver Johnson Hammerless Revolver

[silver-fox]

Hi,
I`d like to find info on an Iver Johnson Safety Hammerless revolver I have..Would like to know manufacture date & model (if able to use modern ammo) were alot made at that time ?..Description:
.32 cal..Nickle finish (excellent condition), black grips with owl heads, also excellent condition..Top break, double post..I don`t know what to look for in telling diff. between leaf & coil spring..On top of barrel: Iver Johnson Arms & Cycle Works, Fitchburg Mass. U.S.A..The detail of mark makes it very easy to read, but I noticed something I thought may be odd..End of first line, after Works, there is a stamp mark of a box with an x inside..The odd part, is at the begining of first line, instead of the "I", the stamp of the square over lapped the "I", (both being same heights) making it just look like the imprint of a square (there is no x thru this one) then ver Johnson..serial # on trigger guard: 43494, under left grip is L 43494..On butt of gun: (3 lines) PAT`D APR.6.86.FEB15.87.MAY.10.87.MAR.13.88.AUG.25.96. PAT`S PENDING..

Thanks for taking the time to read & post reply (if able)

[Xracer]

Hi Silver Fox.....welcome to TFF.

I can't answer your question....but we've got a REAL expert on IJ's here on the board, Bill Goforth, who's written a book on 'em.

http://www.gunshowbooks.com/home.html

Bill can tell you not only the model and date it was built....but probably what the guy that built it had for breakfast that morning!

Keep checking back.....he'll wander in sooner or later.

[b.goforth]

silver-fox,
actually your description made it very easy to identify your revolver. it is a small frame second model safety automatic hammerless manufactured in 1904. all second models (1896-1908) were manufactured for black powder cartridge pressures and should not be used with modern ammo.

the answer to were there many of them manufactured is yes, the first model (1894-1896) and second model (1896-1908) are collectible while the third model (1909-1941 manufactured for smokeless powder) are shootable if in good condition. there were two frame sizes in both the hammer and hammerless versions and they were offered in 4 calibers (22 to 38), with the 22 caliber being the least produced. between 1894 and 1942 there were approx. 14 million manufactured of all frame sizes, calibers and hammer/hammerless versions. of that total approx 650,000 were small frame second model hammerless 32 caliber versions. the years 1903 and 1904 were the high production years for the small frame hammerless 32s with 100,000 manufactured each year.

for your information during the 1890s (1890-1899) iver johnson's arms & cycle works factory had the capablitiy of manufactuing 2000 firearms a day.
it consister of 7 three story brick building and covering 5 acres. 5 of these buildings are still standing today.
bill

[silver-fox]

Thanks for the great info, Bill..Now knowing that it is the 2nd model, made for black powder ammo, could explain the problem I had while shooting it..This revolver is in excellent condition, so I took it out to see how it would shoot..However, I used modern .32 ammo..It shot o.k, but when I broke it open to empty the shells, nothing happened..I belived that either using "generic" ammo has caused this, or the cylinder was wore out, because what happened was that the shells seemed to have expanded & would`nt eject..After a short time, when the brass had cooled down, they came out..Thankfully no damage..As I said, thinking it may be the cylinder, I ordered one online, looked as though it was cleaned in acid , no nickel color left..If it was`nt for your help, I would have tried shooting again, still using modern ammo..
Does anyone know if they still make the black powder ammo, or anyone who sells it ?..This piece is too nice just to sit in the safe without being able to take it out once in awhile..
Thanks again Bill & Xracer for the welcome..

[Youngster]

Just ran across this old thread searching for info on my grandfather's Iver Johnson Safety Automatic Hammerless. I'd like to identify it, put it in shooting condition, shoot it, and then put it away for the next generation. Here's what I know:

Small frame (.32) hammerless
S/N B 3 98 43

Top break, 5 shot
Safety lever on trigger
Separate hammer shroud
Owl looking at trigger

Top of barrel
IVER JOHNSON’S ARMS & CYCLE WORKS. FITCHBURO MASS. U.S.A.
PAT’D APR. 6,89. FEB. 15,87. MAY 10,87. DEC. 26,93. PAT’S PENDING

I'm interested in learning year of manufacture and whether there are people who can sell me appropriate ammo.

Thanks.

[b.goforth]

youngster,
this revolver should have the barrel release lever on the left side of the barrel top strap (single top post barrel latch). it is a first model manufactured in 1896 DO NOT FIRE THIS REVOLVER WITH MODERN AMMO.

it would best to leave it as is and retire it to a place of honor for having served so long and well.

if you must repalce parts numrich arms (e-gunparts.com) does have some but not all. some new springs are available through numrich other parts they have are used from revolvers they have broken down for the parts.
bill

[Youngster]

Bill:

Many thanks for the ID (pic attached). The revolver was a part of my grandfather’s gear on his 1898 solo bicycle trip from St. Joseph, MO to La Junta, CO, mostly along RR right of way. I plan to have it cleaned and inspected by a gunsmith. I doubt if I will fire it, even if I can get someone to load low pressure rounds, because I can’t get my arthritic finger knuckle through the tiny space between trigger and guard.

Thanks again.

Bob
(Youngster)

[b.goforth]

bob,
the picture confirms it is a first model manufactured in 1896.
bill

[froggly1]

I hope someone can help me here. My dad bought a Iver Johnson's pistol.across the barrel it says Iver Johnson's Arms & Cycle works Fitchburg Mass. USA. It was in pieces when he got it and has put it all back together except for one spring. He is needing a picture of one broke down so he can see how to put it back together. It is a 6 shot revolver , 32 caliber. it says Jun 16.96.aug25.?? (and we can't see the last to numbers) and i guess the s/n is Q9290. Thanks for any help i can get!!!

[b.goforth]

froggly,
the two patent dates and the "Q" letter code indicate this revolver is a large frame second model 38 caliber 'safety automatic hammer revolver'. the second model was manufactured between 1896 and 1908. serial number Q9290 was manufactured in 1906, with about 100,000 manufactured that year. all second model safety automatic revolvers (including this one) were manufactured for black powder cartridge pressures and are NOT safe with modern smokeless ammo.

send me an e-mail at bgofoth@peoplepc.com and i will send a cutaway drawing from a 1902 catalog that should show how the parts go together
bill

[froggly1]

Hey bill,
I was wondering if i sent you a picture of this pistol if you could tell me what it is worth?

[froggly1]

hey my email is amyrob24@yahoo.com thanks for the picture.

[Xracer]

Froggly....the Standard Catalog of Firearms values your I.J. Safety Automatic at:

Exc. - $250
V.G. - $170
Good - $120
Fair - $95

[NewIverowner]

I would like some help on pinpointing the year on my Iver Johnson revolver. I found the serial on the hand grip frame and underneath the top section that overhangs the cylinder, both say 95928. I was told it was a .32 short, has a five shot cylinder and the owl grips with the owl facing down the barrel. It reads on top of the barrel Iver Johnson's Arms & Cycle Works, Fitchburc, Mass USA. On the side of the barrell it reads:
PAT'D APR,6,86,FEB. Looks like 15,87 MAY 10,87 than two stars
MAR.13,88,AUG.25,96,PAT'S Pending and two more stars.
This has the little lever in the center of the triger and double post release on the top.

[b.goforth]

the 5 patent dates marked on the left side of the barrel was only used for a short time 1900 to 1902 on the second model (1896-1908) safety automatic revolver. the lack of a letter code prefix is interesting in that all other small frame 32 S&W caliber hammerless model i have seen or encountered will have the letter code prefix "B" to thier serial number and the large frame 38 S&W caliber have a "D". this revolver with the serial number 95000 range would most likely have been manufactured in 1902.

this is a second model and all second models were manufactured for black powder cartridge pressures only and are not considered safe with modern smokeless ammo.

the lever in the trigger is actually a safety. the trigger can not be pulled unless the trigger firnger depresses this safety. this type of trigger safety is in use today by glock and several others. iver johnson's first patent to include this trigger safety is dated 1886. it was included in all iver johnson production top break hammerless revolvers manufactured between 1887 and 1909. it predates the introduction of the safety automatic revolver by about 7 years. there were two other iver johnson manufactured top break revolvers that used it the 'lovell automatic hammerless revolver' of 1887 and "lovell swift hammerless revolver" of 1890.
bill

[NewIverowner]

Thank you, looking at the pistol again, I don't see a letter anywhere on the overhang of the barrel but there is a mark that is about a half inch from the serial number on the handle. I couldn't tell if it was just a flaw but now that you mention that, it could be a "D"; it looks more like a "D". After cleaning it, it definitley resembles either a "D" or a "U", it is kind of hard to tell. Saying that it is a D, this would be a .38. What type of .38 ammo would it take?

[b.goforth]

if it is a 38 the correct cartridge is 38 S&W. one quick check to determine the frame size and caliber is the barrel length. standard barrel length for the small frame 32 caliber is 3 inches and for the large frame 38 caliber it is
3 1/4 inches. barrel is measured from muzzle to front of cylinder.
bill

[NewIverowner]

It is diffenitley a 38 s&w. From muzzle to front of cylinder is 3.25". Thanks for your help.

[52Relic]

Hello Bill, may I respectfully ask you to comment on this IJ?

I know it's a .38 (fired it many years ago)...S/N 29386 on bottom of trigger guard (location #5 on your drawing @ arms collector); markings "xpatjune16,96aug25,96x" on bottom of butt. It has what look to be pearl or pearl-type grips, don't know if they were offered by IJ or if my grandfather put them on.

Thanks very much for your time and knowledge.
52

[b.goforth]

52,
these two patent dates were only use together in 1905 and 1906. this would make it a second model and should be retired and not fired any more.
i would need to know the serial number and letter code found on the left side of the grip frame under the grip panel to give you any more info. once the grips are off you will be able to see the hammer spring, single flat leaf, second model or coil spring is a third model, only the third models are safe with smokeless powder loads.

mother of pearl grips were a factory option. if the grips have the serial number of the revolver on the back side they are factory if not they are after market
bill

[ACCER]

I have an IJ with: IVER JOHNSON’S ARMS & CYCLE WORKS. FITCHBURO MASS. U.S.A.
PAT’D APR. 6,89. FEB. 15,87. MAY 10,87. DEC. 26,93. PAT’S PENDING.

Looks like the one Youngster posted a photo of but with a shorter barrel. SN is D 65139. It is in outstanding condition and I was wondering what it was worth, what kind of modern ammo it would use (if any) and if there is a "best way" to protect it for display.

Thanks for any help.

[b.goforth]

accer,
the revolver youngster posted a picture of is a first model with the single top post barrel latch. my records indicates the the four patent dates and the "D" letter code was not used until 1896 on the large frame 38 S&W caliber second model safety automatic hammerless revolver with a double top post barrel latch.

first (1894-1896) or second model (1896-1908) it does not matter as both were manufactured for black powder cartridge pressures and should not be fired at all.

i would suggest checking the auctions sites for current values as most pricing guides under value these revolvers.
bill

[williemaq@mac.com]

I have an IJ.

Location 1: Iver & Johnson's Arms & Cycle Works
Fitchburg Mass, U.S.A.

Location 5: 21628

Location 7: Pat. June 16, 96 Aug 25, 96
Pat's Pending

Most of my questions have been answered here. I am look for parts to make this gun whole again. Look for the trigger safety and pin. I hope that is what they are called.

Can anyone help with this?

Thank you,

Willie

[b.goforth]

williemaq,
without the serial number found under the grips on the left side of the frame (location #6) the only thing i can tell you about this iver johnson revolver is these two patent date were used together in 1905 and 1906. this would incidate a second model safety automatic revolver. all second model were manufactured for black powder cartridge pressures and are not safe with modern smokeless ammo.
bill

[Embassy Marine]

I have an 5 shot Iver Johnson .38 hammerless revolver that has been in my family for years. The serial number, which was stamped on the butt of the frame, is D 1473. Any clues as to when it may have been manufactured?

Th condition is probably rated as good as some of the plating is a little brittle and it looks like it may have had quite a few rounds run through it. The cylinder timing seems to be good but I have never fired it and probably won't because of the type of ammo needed for it.

Thanks.

Stu