Reloading Manual Question

[jpg5324]

I have a Lyman 49th ed., I have read it cover to cover (several times).
My question is..for example, page 354 (38 special), 158gr Jacket HP..under that 1.480"OAL (is this the MINUMUM length for this Cartridge with that bullet???...across from that, BC: .206 and SD: .177 (what are these Dimensions???).

Thanks

[76Highboy]

O.A.L.= Overall Length which is the length of the bullet after it is to completion. Hornady and other companies refer to it as C.O.L, which means Correct Overall Length.

B.C.= Ballistic Coefficient. I will direct you to Wikipedia and sources of that nature for the explanation. For reloading purposes I never pay attention to it.

Hope that helps.

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by jpg5324

I have a Lyman 49th ed., I have read it cover to cover (several times).
My question is..for example, page 354 (38 special), 158gr Jacket HP..under that 1.480"OAL (is this the MINUMUM length for this Cartridge with that bullet???...across from that, BC: .206 and SD: .177 (what are these Dimensions???).

Thanks

NO, it is neither a Minimum or a Maximum, it is simply the OAL (Overall Length)/COL( Cartridge Overall Length) that was used when they did their testing. It has little to do with the handloader and how he tailors a round to Fit-Feed-Fire in his or her firearm. In fact some manuals do not even list an OAL/COL in their data it is that unimportant to your specific firearm.

Find the best OAL/COl that works in YOUR firearm and Start low and work up.

[oldgunfan]

SD is (sectional density) A bullet's weight in pounds divided by the square of it's diameter in inches. or it's weight per cross-sectional area. I my be wrong but I think that is the balance of the bullet. I'm sure L.D. or J.L.A can set us strait.

[76Highboy]

Originally Posted by steve4102

NO, it is neither a Minimum or a Maximum, it is simply the OAL (Overall Length)/COL( Cartridge Overall Length) that was used when they did their testing. It has little to do with the handloader and how he tailors a round to Fit-Feed-Fire in his or her firearm. In fact some manuals do not even list an OAL/COL in their data it is that unimportant to your specific firearm.

Find the best OAL/COl that works in YOUR firearm and Start low and work up.

You are right about that which is why I seat the bullet as close to the C.O.L. as I can but as long as I am in the cannelure that is fine.

[oldgunfan]

Originally Posted by 76Highboy

You are right about that which is why I seat the bullet as close to the C.O.L. as I can but as long as I am in the cannelure that is fine.

Just to add to that if it's an semi-auto you should put it at the forward part of the cannelure, if it's a revolver put it at the rear most part of the cannelure.

[312shooter]

Originally Posted by jpg5324

My question is..for example, page 354 (38 special), 158gr Jacket HP..under that 1.480"OAL (is this the MINUMUM length for this Cartridge with that bullet???

Correct, each bullet weight data column provides an OAL which should be read as "do not seat bullet shorter than"

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by 312shooter

Correct, each bullet weight data column provides an OAL which should be read as "do not seat bullet shorter than"

I respectfully disagree.

OAL is ALWAYS bullet & gun specific, regardless of what the manual says. The bullet has to fit your gun. If you are loading shorter than published OAL, then you need to reduce your charge wt to compensate for the shorter length. If using starting data, shorter OAL doesn't matter as much. If working to the top end, everything matters.

[LDBennett]

jpg5324:

If you have never reloaded before and want to do it successfully from the start then use the reloading manual as a recipe. That is, follow it exactly: Same bullet, same powder, same primer, same dimensions for Cartridge Overall Length (COL).

In the beginning there is too much to learn. Deviating from the "recipes" might get you in trouble. As time goes by and you start reading everything reloading and produce some good reloads, you'll increase your knowledge to the point where you can change up some the recipe without hurting yourself or the gun.

When we reload cartridge the pressures vary from less than 15,000 psi to over 60,000 psi. If that pressure gets out of the cartridge other than out the muzzle of the gun, it can and may do some serious damage to you and the gun. BE SAFE. Follow the reloading manuals exactly in the beginning and use the starting loads and not more than midway between the starting load and max load of powder as you progress in reloading. Success in reloading is more important than bragging rights for a hot reload.

SD and BC are used to mathematically determine the performance of the bullet. SD measures indicates the slimness for a given mass of the bullet. BC measure indicates its aerodynamics or ability to move through the air. Neither serves you any purpose at this point.

LDBennett

[carver]

The ballistic coefficient (BC) of a body is a measure of its ability to overcome air resistance in flight. It can be very important to what you are trying to achieve, especially in long range shooting! Doesn't mean anything to the beginner.

[ozo]

Just remember, to be safe, the deeper you seat
the projectile [in a given recipe] the more you
increase the internal pressure.
OAL [COL] can be very critical in the way a round feeds
in a semi-auto, yet not hardly any issue in a revolver.
The info in the manual is a 'test' round that has a very
specific recipe, including what the round was fired in,
and deemed 'safe' for modern arms in good shape.
Seating, crimping, primer, powder, OAL, style and length
of barrel, etc. were all directly related to the results.

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by LDBennett

jpg5324:

If you have never reloaded before and want to do it successfully from the start then use the reloading manual as a recipe. That is, follow it exactly: Same bullet, same powder, same primer, same dimensions for Cartridge Overall Length (COL).



LDBennett

As most handloaders know this is impossible, it is impossible to follow load data exactly as there are to many variables, lot to lot variations in both powder and primers, different Test barrels/firearms used, temperature, altitude and even the manuals themselves.

For example here is the OAL for the 158gr XTP in 38 special.
Hodgdon=1.455

Lyman 48=1.480

Hornady#7=1.450

Ramshot=1.434

Accurate=1.455

Powder charges will also vary making a "Recipe" impossible.
Hornady #7, 158gr XTP, Power Pistol=4.4gr-6.0gr at 1.450 inches.

Lyman 48, 158gr XTP, Power Pistol=4.3gr-4.8gr at 1.480 inches.

Note: the Hornady manual lists a "Shorter" OAL but a much high max powder charge than the longer Lyman data. Both cannot be a "Recipe" for your gun. One or both of them have to be wrong.

The worst thing a beginning handloader can do is treat load data as gospel or a "recipe". Doing so assumes that published data will be safe in your firearms. Every manual will explain that load data is only a Guideline and must be treated as such. If it were a "recipe" then data would not vary from manual to manual and firearm to firearm.

[carver]

Originally Posted by steve4102

As most handloaders know this is impossible, it is impossible to follow load data exactly as there are to many variables, lot to lot variations in both powder and primers, different Test barrels/firearms used, temperature, altitude and even the manuals themselves.

For example here is the OAL for the 158gr XTP in 38 special.
Hodgdon=1.455

Lyman 48=1.480

Hornady#7=1.450

Ramshot=1.434

Accurate=1.455

Powder charges will also vary making a "Recipe" impossible.
Hornady #7, 158gr XTP, Power Pistol=4.4gr-6.0gr at 1.450 inches.

Lyman 48, 158gr XTP, Power Pistol=4.3gr-4.8gr at 1.480 inches.

Note: the Hornady manual lists a "Shorter" OAL but a much high max powder charge than the longer Lyman data. Both cannot be a "Recipe" for your gun. One or both of them have to be wrong.

Both of them are correct! Reloading manuals varry in that the load they publish is never minimum, or maximum. They have no idea what you will be shooting the load in, and they have no idea how accurate your measurements will be for powder, OAL, or the condition of your brass. They will not publish anything that will get you in trouble! They don't want to be sued! What they do publish is a "recipe" that will be safe in anything except a broke, or damaged gun! I would not hesitate to shoot the Hornady #7, 158gr XTP, Power Pistol load at 6.0grs, in a modern, well functioning, gun.

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by carver

Both of them are correct! Reloading manuals varry in that the load they publish is never minimum, or maximum. They have no idea what you will be shooting the load in, and they have no idea how accurate your measurements will be for powder, OAL, or the condition of your brass. They will not publish anything that will get you in trouble! They don't want to be sued! What they do publish is a "recipe" that will be safe in anything except a broke, or damaged gun! I would not hesitate to shoot the Hornady #7, 158gr XTP, Power Pistol load at 6.0grs, in a modern, well functioning, gun.

Ahh, but which one is the "Recipe" the OP should follow "to the letter"? Can't follow them both as they are completely different. Flip a coin?

[ozo]

Why ,why, why do we gotta go HERE.....again ???

[LDBennett]

steve4102:

While reloading manuals vary, the safest thing for a new reloader is to follow one, any one, exactly. Allowing a person, newly to reloading, the flexibility to vary only invites a mistake. We are not optimizing a load for a particular gun but getting his feet wet and doing it totally safely.

I did not suggest that he use the same gun or barrel or even case as the recipe calls out but only:

"Same bullet, same powder, same primer, same dimensions for Cartridge Overall Length (COL)"

Deviations from the recipes lies in the future of the new reloader and should not be suggest as a starting point as a new reloader has no idea what is sensitive and could cause a serious problem. I personally will not take the legal responsibility to recommend anything different. Now if you want to take on that responsibility be my guest and be sure to give the new reloader your name and address so his lawyer can contact you if there is a problem.

Reloading if done wrong can be dangerous. Reloading manual publishers list recipes known to be safe in most any gun or they might be held legally responsible for any blowup. BE SAFE!

LDBennett

[carver]

Originally Posted by steve4102

Ahh, but which one is the "Recipe" the OP should follow "to the letter"? Can't follow them both as they are completely different. Flip a coin?

Flip a coin would work, but, at my house I only have a few different powders on hand. If I want to reload, I check the manual for the recipe provided for the powders that I have on hand. If you asked me for a recipe for a .45ACP round, I would give you something from the AA reloading manual, because that's the powder I use for .45APC. If you have a specific bullet weight, say 230gr FMJ, then you would get:
AA No.2, 230gr SIE FMJ, 4.6grs min, @ 769fps, to 5.4grs, max, @ 881fps, max load = 20,800psi, 1.250 col, or you could get:
AA No.5, 230gr NOS FMJ, 7.8grs, @ 816fps, 8.7grs, @ 927fps, max load = 19,300psi, 1.250 col.

When I started reloading I wanted cheap, so I could shoot more. I didn't really care what powder gave the best results in the .44 Mag Ruger Black Hawk. I knew I couldn't shoot the gun as well as a master shooter, so accuracy wasn't the goal, it was shoot more for less money! I still use that principle today!

[LDBennett]

carver:

Are you new to reloading? The poster is. The poster needs to work in some confinement to assure no problems and reasonable results. I too would flip a coin as to which manual to use but also suggest starting loads and keep to the recipe listed there.

All the variability suggested by others here is perfectly good recommendations for a reloader with some experience but not for someone who is new to reloading. We should not be recommending anything that could even possibly get that new reloader into trouble (down playing the exact recipe gives him the freedom to make a serious mistake). The manual publishers risk law suits so you can be sure their recipes are safe, extra safe, when the starting loads are used.

It is wise to explain that some variability is allowed but not in the first reloads from the new reloader.

This is my opinion and others obviously have a different outlook on safety than me. The new reloaders can decide for themselves. I only offer what I think to be safe.

LDBennett

[312shooter]

Originally Posted by steve4102

I respectfully disagree.

OAL is ALWAYS bullet & gun specific, regardless of what the manual says. The bullet has to fit your gun. If you are loading shorter than published OAL, then you need to reduce your charge wt to compensate for the shorter length. If using starting data, shorter OAL doesn't matter as much. If working to the top end, everything matters.

You are disagreeing with lab tested inoformation published in the Lyman 49th reloading manual, I'm not offended. Although I'm interested why you would try to lead a new reloader in a direction away from the guidlines of safety and lab tested information.

Are you new to reloading? The poster is. The poster needs to work in some confinement to assure no problems and reasonable results.

+1

Why ,why, why do we gotta go HERE.....again ???

+2

[steve4102]

The tested information was not tested in the OP's firearm. The Tested OAL may not function correctly in the OP's firearm. Although this is less of a issue in a revolver, it is a huge issue in a semi-auto. First and foremost the handloaded ammo has to Fit-Feed-Fire. After all, if it does not fit-feed and fire there is no need to worry about pressures is there.

[carver]

Originally Posted by LDBennett

carver:

Are you new to reloading? The poster is. The poster needs to work in some confinement to assure no problems and reasonable results. I too would flip a coin as to which manual to use but also suggest starting loads and keep to the recipe listed there.

All the variability suggested by others here is perfectly good recommendations for a reloader with some experience but not for someone who is new to reloading. We should not be recommending anything that could even possibly get that new reloader into trouble (down playing the exact recipe gives him the freedom to make a serious mistake). The manual publishers risk law suits so you can be sure their recipes are safe, extra safe, when the starting loads are used.

It is wise to explain that some variability is allowed but not in the first reloads from the new reloader.

This is my opinion and others obviously have a different outlook on safety than me. The new reloaders can decide for themselves. I only offer what I think to be safe.

LDBennett

First off, you know that your imput is valued by me, but I've been reloading for over 35 years, and so far, only one mistake, I forgot the powder, and that was 30 years ago! I have not recomended anything that is unsafe, as the recipes I listed are straight form the reloading manual. The OP will be working within confinements, he will be confined to the gun he owns, even if the exact same gun isn't listed in the dang reloading manual! He is further confined by the powder he has chosen to use, according to the manual he has chosen to follow. He is further confined to the type, and make of bullet he has chosen, again, hopefully, according to the manal. A new reloader needs only to read the manual he has chosen to use, and learn the correct way to reload. If the new guys would READ the MANUAL we wouldn't have these discussions! Where in the manual, any manual, does it say that the load printed can only be used in a gun like the test gun?

[carver]

Originally Posted by steve4102

The tested information was not tested in the OP's firearm. The Tested OAL may not function correctly in the OP's firearm. Although this is less of a issue in a revolver, it is a huge issue in a semi-auto. First and foremost the handloaded ammo has to Fit-Feed-Fire. After all, if it does not fit-feed and fire there is no need to worry about pressures is there.

I think Mr. Bennett asked the wrong guy if he was new to reloading!

[312shooter]

JPG5324,

Well now that your original post has drifted this far off topic, it looks as if you ARE reading your manuals and asking around for clarification. I hope you can wade through the ego's and find the simple answers you need to go have fun in a safe manner.

Lesson #1 - read your manuals
Lesson#2 - forget the information you aquired from the internet about reloading, especially specific load data, it is entirely too unreliable for your safety sake.

[LDBennett]

steve4102:

That is why we have standards for chamber sizes and cartridge dimension that most all manufactures of guns and ammo adhere to. If they didn't then no ammo manufacturer would be able to make ammo that fits and works in all guns for that particular cartridge size.

Admittedly, some semi-autos need more than starting charges but usually it is guns that have been screwed with and have recoil springs not factory standard. There, of course, are exceptions but few report here that starting loads don't operate their semi-auto guns. It is not a universal problem. Besides, the poster was after help for 38 spl loads which fit in a revolver and no starting load will be a problem in a revolver. (Yes I know about the semi-auto S&W Model 52 in 38SPL because I have one and I load it to an exact published recipe for only that gun with no variations.)

I understand tailoring a load for a specific gun to get the best in operational and accuracy performance from it. But that is STAGE 2 in learning to reload, not STAGE 1, where this new reloader is at.

LDBennett

[ozo]

jpg5324
I hope you don't run away.....