Exploding Glock (with pics)

[Night Stalker]

A friend sent me a link to two seperate articles on "expoding" Glocks. I was considering buying a Glock 21, but now I think otherwise. Has anyone else ever heard of this?

Below are the pics and a few of the articles.... any thoughts?





Oregon Department's Exploding .45 Glocks
03/13/2004

Police replace faulty handguns
The bureau is switching to 9mm Glocks after two .45-caliber models exploded in the hands of two Portland officers

By MAXINE BERNSTEIN, The Oregonian

After two .45-caliber Glock Model 21 firearms exploded in the hands of two Portland police officers during training this month, Police Chief Derrick Foxworth this week ordered a recall of the weapons carried by 230 Portland officers. "We don't want a reoccurrence of this happening again," Foxworth said. "It's the prudent thing to do."

The Portland Police Bureau thought the problem was caused by an ammunition malfunction. After the second explosion three days later, the bureau's training division did further analysis and determined the explosions may have been caused by a defect in the weapon or a design problem.

The handgun is carried by about a quarter of the bureau's officers.

Police will switch to 9 mm handguns.

The bureau has 150 9mm Glocks in its inventory, but it will acquire more and will replace officers' holsters.

On Friday, training division officers met with a Glock representative. They are negotiating to replace the .45-caliber weapons with 9mm handguns at no cost.

Officials at Georgia-based Glock declined to comment, saying the company's general counsel was out of the office until Tuesday.

Because the .45-caliber Glock is popular among law enforcement, the Portland police training officers sent a teletype to agencies nationwide. They heard back from several, including agencies in Florida and Texas, that had similar problems. Other agencies, including the Los Angeles Police Department, and Multnomah and Clackamas counties sheriff's departments, reported no problems.

The Portland incidents occurred during the bureau's advanced academy firearm training.

In a March 11 memo to officers, Foxworth wrote of what he called the "catastrophic failures" with the Glock pistols.

Officer Mike Close "was on the firing line, and his gun basically exploded in his hand," Foxworth said. Close's fingers were bruised, and some metal lodged in his skin. He was treated at a hospital and released.

Three days later, the same thing happened to Officer Florin Pirv, who was not injured.

The training staff withdrew the practice ammunition, but further study revealed more serious problems.

A records check also showed a similar event occurred in 1997.

"An examination of the two guns revealed rupturing of the barrel, bulging of the slide, and the destruction of the trigger bag, magazine release mechanism, magazine and receiver," the chief's memo said.

In each case, the bullet failed to feed into the weapon's barrel, and the primer ignited, causing an explosion that blew out the magazine seated into the weapon, police said.

The weapon's recall was the topic of discussion at police roll calls Friday.

Gang Enforcement Officer Steve Collins, who has carried a .45-caliber Glock for more than 10 years, said: "I've always felt confident with it, but now that this has come to light, it's not worth it."

The bureau said it would start replacing the guns first for patrol officers in the operations branch, followed by detectives.

The chief also halted practice shooting and firearm qualifications with the .45-caliber pistols. The swapping of firearms is expected to occur during the next month.

"The design of the 9mm Glock is different and would eliminate the possibility of this happening," said training Lt. John Tellis.

"That's why in our opinion, the 9 mm is the safer gun."
______________________________________________________

Article 2 on an exploding Glock...
______________________________________________________

The following narrative is from TheGunZone visitor Michael Pinson:

My next door neighbor in Columbus, Ohio just bought a new Glock Model 21. This incident happened on January 14, 2002. He shot about 50-75 rounds from it and it "exploded." It was a new factory gun using new factory .45 ACP ammo.

The shooter, who is a Mifflin Township police officer, a Columbus fireman and (until now) a Glock fan, was practicing to requalify for his police status. At the Columbus police range they use what he calls "grab bag ammo," just a lot of different brands. (They get deals on bulk ammo from various gun dealers around town for practice... target ammo, etc., no hollow points). While it isn't the best it also isn't the cheapest. It usually consists of PMC, Speer Lawman, Olin / Winchester, Remington / UMC and Blazer among others, as they get deals on quantities of ammo for this purpose. While he isn't sure exactly what type went through the gun he assures me there was no aluminum on the day in question, it was all brass. No reloads are allowed at the police shooting range. Also no hot loads, all 230 grain rounds.

He is right handed but was shooting left handed at the time (good thing, since everything blew out to the right). Approximately seven or eight magazines of ammo were shot before the kB! event. He had on a leather glove and really didn't know what happened. A piece cut his hand (slightly) and a piece hit his chin. You can see in the photos what happened to the pistol. It also blew the spring and the rounds in the magzine out the bottom.

The shooter/owner bought the gun at Vance's in Columbus. He took it back January 15th. Vance's said they would pay for shipping but Glock had to honor the warranty. The following day a Glock representative came into town specifically to talk to the shooter. The Glock Rep. told him that "this never happened before" and they are going to give him a new pistol. The Glock Rep. is also blaming the ammo.
When questioned as to specifics on the rounds being fired, and when it was strongly suggested that it sounded more like reloaded or remanufactured ammunition, Pinson insisted that they were "all new factory rounds."

I am dubious due to the lack of specifics on the ammunition which caused the event. It is certain that something unfortunate happened, but what or who was at fault is open to serious question, and despite the Glock representative's absurd assertion that "this never happened before," until more factual information is forthcoming I concur that it more than likely was caused by faulty ammunition.

[outdoortexas]

Although I have not witnessed one...
here's a link worth reading before you decide not to buy a Glock my friend.

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb.html#do

Do kB!s occur in other guns or just in Glocks?
kB!s do, of course, occur in other guns, but no one appears to be keeping accurate statistics for most of them. Many 1911-style handguns have partially unsupported case mouths, and numerous case separations have occurred in these guns. Early .38 Super barrels were particularly susceptible, and the critical observer may have noticed the predilection among USPSA .38 Super competitors for full beards in an attempt to cloak the vestiages of what came to be known as "super face."

Respected firearms author Frank James, in 1994, documented a number of kB!s in HK USP .40 pistols, which do have fully supported chambers. (But see this!)





There's another link I can't find right now with a 1911 in pieces, seems it can and does happen to all of them.

Seems to me...the Glock draws heat the same as GW Bush...
ya either love 'em, or hate 'em...

[bambihunter]

Thousands upon thousands of 10mm rounds shot through mine and they are the most powerful round Glock chambers for. If they don't blow up with the ten mm then I'd bet it's bad ammo, reloaded ammo, overloaded ammo, obstructed barrel, etc.

I trust mine with my life, it's what I use for home defense (Glock 20) and it's what I carry concealed (Glock 29). Sometime soon I'm gonna start reloading, THEN (and only then) I'll start holding my breath a little when I shoot, but part of that is because I'm relatively new to reloading too.

[Raven18940]

Yikes, that could have been me or any of us. It's a small percentage, but still hard to ignore. That's why I like 9mm, not enough chamber pressure to really hurt you. Maybe I'll just carry a revolver and never have to worry about this.

[glocknut]

Originally Posted by Raven18940

Yikes, that could have been me or any of us. It's a small percentage, but still hard to ignore. That's why I like 9mm, not enough chamber pressure to really hurt you. Maybe I'll just carry a revolver and never have to worry about this.

I could be wrong but I thought the 9mm had much higher pressures than the 45acp.....

I also owned a Glock 21 45acp. My friend loaded up some really hot 45's and we went shooting with them. They were hot enough to make that G21 feel like the 10mm and beyond..... One round was so hot it felt like a 44mag. Nothing happened to the gun....nothing at all. I remember looking at the brass which all seemed normal at a glance. I suppose some of them may have been bulged, but if they were they were'nt bulged that bad, because they looked like normal spent brass to me......

So for anyone that wants to buy a 45 caliber Glock 21 or 21c I would have to say.....GO FOR IT !!!!!
I just took a look at a 21c the other day, and its all i can think about now.....

mike
gn

[Shamus]

I am dubious due to the lack of specifics on the ammunition which caused the event.

I'd bet all my nickles it's ammo related. Bulk reloads w/lead build-up = K-Boom

But what do I have to worry about I just bought a Glock 26 9mm.

[inplanotx]

How about we take a look at "Mean Working Pressure" for the rounds involved. Here is a breakdown, you decide. Remember that these are the pressures that manufacturers load to.

9mm - 35,000 PSI
40 S&W - 35,000 PSI
10 mm - 37,500 PSI
45 ACP - 21,000 PSI

Still any wonder why the 45 ACP is still around? The numbers tell the whole story! Anybody doubt why the 45 ACP has been around for 100 years????
































GLOCKS SUCK!!!!!!

[Mateomasfeo]

I thought they were SUPPOSED to blow up!

I been kinda angry cause mine hasn't blown up in over 3000 rounds of .45...a lot of those were +p's. It has functioned fine.

It seems that Glock may be having a problem with the later model .45's and the earlier guns are not involved.

Old faithful...

[inplanotx]

Just don't start firing reloads in it!

Buying ammo is not in my vocabulary. I reload everything that I shoot! Unfortunately those that shoot GLOCKS, are not supposed to, as witnessed by the warning in the instruction manual that comes with the pistol. I bought 40 S&W, brought it home, read the manual and took it back to the dealer for a refund!! Bought another 1911 instead! I also cast the bullets for what I fire in handguns. Can't do that either!

[mballai]

On one of the newsgroups I subscribe to, a very serious and accomplished trainer had his wife's Glock 36 kb with factory ammo. The gun wasn't old or heavily used and it was well taken care of and always used with factory ammo.

The consensus is that the Glock just doesn't scale up all that well--9mm Glock kbs are very rare. Not so with the larger calibers. Really a shame, I loved both of the Glocks I bought, a 23 and a 30 which replaced it. The G30s are really accurate. But I ain't risking my skin for something that's supposed to protect it.

[Hydra Shok]

http://www.thegunzone.com/1911a1-kb.html

If you look at the above link you will see that Glocks are not the only firearms that are succeptable to KB's. In fact most all firearms, from rifles to handguns, have experienced KB's. Before I bought my Glock I did a lot of research both online and at the local gun range and some owners as well. Being no expert myself I came to the conclusion :


Most of Glock KB's are due to the shooter using faulty ammunition. It states in the Glock owners manual NOT to use reloaded ammo. You are supposed to use ONLY commercial ammo. You cannot use lead bullets due to the fact that lead greatly increases the pressures because of the octagonal or hexagonal rifling in Glock barrels, so therefore you use ONLY FMJ bullets.

Also, it seems that the majority of KB's occur with the .40 pistols, something to do with the higher pressures generated with this caliber..... and reloads.

Want a 21?? Go get one and shoot a lot of factory ammo and enjoy it.

Oh I almost forgot, if you want to shoot lead bullets you can buy an aftermarket barrel that does not have the hexagonal rifling and shoot all the lead you want.



I love my 19!

[inplanotx]

How about that! Doesn't say what caused it! Wonder what it was???? Imagine a shooter has a squib load and then jacks in the next load with an obturated barrel. KaBoom! Yup, that's right, maybe it was an obturated barrel, a double load during reloading who knows what. However, it does NOT say it was due to factory ammo as the GLOCKS have been noted to disintegrate with? Got another example??? That one don't count!


SO FAR,,, GLOCKS STILL SUCK!

[inplanotx]

Hydra Shok writes:

Also, it seems that the majority of KB's occur with the .40 pistols, something to do with the higher pressures generated with this caliber..... and reloads.

Maybe you didn't see my post on pressures above. Just a thought??????
I thought it put the 9mm, 10mm, and 40S&W in the same pressure range. Now what???


Tupperware Rules??????????


GLOCKS STILL SUCK!

[Raven18940]

hmmmm, the 9mm comment was only supposed to be smaller=safer except for the person I point at. I didn't really know anything about the chamber pressures, but I learned something. I still think .45 is an outdated cartidge. I thought .40 was similar in terms of energy to .45 with less recoil, but I might be wrong.

[Raven18940]

I thought it put the 9mm, 10mm, and 40S&W in the same pressure range. Now what???

The 9mm glocks are designed differently, meaning no boomage. And 10mm isn't the most common kB round because it's not that popular, .40 is very popular. If the picture is what happens when a .45 goes kB, then I'd hate to be holding the 10mm that goes boom.

[inplanotx]

Raven, I have never known a 1911 to go KB unless it was an oveloaded reload or there was some barrell obstruction. However, GLOCKS have gone KB on factory ammo, something a 1911 has never done!

[Hydra Shok]

Originally Posted by inplanotx

Raven, I have never known a 1911 to go KB unless it was an oveloaded reload or there was some barrell obstruction. However, GLOCKS have gone KB on factory ammo, something a 1911 has never done!

Although I have no personal experience with any KB's at all, the KB's involving Glocks that I have read about using factory ammo were due to double charges from the factory. Seems Federal had a bunch of double charges go out a year or so ago.

[Hydra Shok]

http://www.handgunsmag.com/featured_...305/index.html

[offeror]

How about that! Doesn't say what caused it! Wonder what it was???? Imagine a shooter has a squib load and then jacks in the next load with an obturated barrel. KaBoom! Yup, that's right, maybe it was an obturated barrel, a double load during reloading who knows what.

Funny how you know the ANSWER but apply it SELECTIVELY according to gun make & model, isn't it?

Here's another non-Glock KB you might enjoy. It seems even the Glock haters are fascinated with non-Glock KBs.... Maybe they are polymer haters? No, that doesn't explain the 1911 frame failure (link already posted above).

H&K USP

[offeror]

Originally Posted by inplanotx

Just don't start firing reloads in it!

No kidding.

I don't use reloads. Glocks have tight tolerances at the chamber in general and reloads often contain a percentage of non-spec (read fat) casings. I used to buy range reloads for practice and stopped doing it -- fat cases AND inert primers, plain lead bullets, you name it.... Few are the people who can REALLY make better ammo than factory (many are those that THINK they can), and besides, reloads are a real liability in court for a defense weapon, not to mention voiding the warranty, so the need is just not there and it's questionable in the smarts department too. It's a bogus criticism (except to those who insist on "saving money" by reloading, of course).

I use factory practice ammo and premium factory for carry. Never a problem after at least a half dozen carry Glocks of all sizes. I don't understand the fascination non-experts have with trying to out-expert the ammo experts by loading their own (usually inferior) specialty rounds, but to each his own, so long as you don't fault a weapon that is too well made to allow for sub-par food.

If you are going to shave those pennies by reloading for a gun you bet your life on, there's no point in trading in a G30 for something else in hopes of improve your odds of saving your skin with your bad ammo. And if you DON'T insist on reloads for your fine carry weapon, there's no need to trade in your G30 either.

[Rugster]

I just read on the Ruger forum about a P-91 .40S&W that went kaboom,its possible with any gun.There are more Glocks in use with LEO's than any other brand,and your going to hear of more happenings from them.



Have a Safe 4th!!

[frosty]

YES, a failure can happen in any gun using reloads or factory. The gun should protect the user from such a failure.

ALSO

The gun should be able to survive the failure and keep working. In a war that plastic piece of crap could explode and you are screwed. For a police officer as a carry weapon its o.k. because the officer will shoot it for practice and a self defense situation...............that is it.

The Glock has never been used and shot every single day in a war situation.

Those of you who put your faith in new technology (plastic) I feel sorry for you.


Go back in time and offer that Glock you love so much and defend so much to a soldier in the middle of France fighting those Nazi bastards. He would tell you to keep your plastic toy. Day in and day out fighting in the dirt, mud rain, sweat, and more dirt. Would you want that piece of plastic in the hands of our guys in WWII? How about Korea cold as a witch's ass, offer it to those GI's. You would get the same response. Try Vietnam, Hot as hell, and the VC were tough. Offer it to those GI's you would get the same response. Why would all the responses be the same, because all those soldiers want what will work everytime they pick it up. Not when they go to the range, but when they have to KILL ANOTHER MAN. Not when they are riding around in an airconditioned patrol car or indoor range.

Use what has been proven in war by blood and sweat NOTby some half ass (plastic/metal) wonder pistol that has not even been used exclusively in a major conflict for an extended period of time.

Glock along with his plastic pool toy can kiss my ass......oh and by the way

LONG LIVE THE 1911 IN .45 ACP, STILL KING OF THE HILL!!!!!!!!

[inplanotx]

Originally Posted by offeror

No kidding.

I don't use reloads. Glocks have tight tolerances at the chamber in general and reloads often contain a percentage of non-spec (read fat) casings. I used to buy range reloads for practice and stopped doing it -- fat cases AND inert primers, plain lead bullets, you name it.... Few are the people who can REALLY make better ammo than factory (many are those that THINK they can), and besides, reloads are a real liability in court for a defense weapon, not to mention voiding the warranty, so the need is just not there and it's questionable in the smarts department too. It's a bogus criticism (except to those who insist on "saving money" by reloading, of course).

I use factory practice ammo and premium factory for carry. Never a problem after at least a half dozen carry Glocks of all sizes. I don't understand the fascination non-experts have with trying to out-expert the ammo experts by loading their own (usually inferior) specialty rounds, but to each his own, so long as you don't fault a weapon that is too well made to allow for sub-par food.

If you are going to shave those pennies by reloading for a gun you bet your life on, there's no point in trading in a G30 for something else in hopes of improve your odds of saving your skin with your bad ammo. And if you DON'T insist on reloads for your fine carry weapon, there's no need to trade in your G30 either.

Sorry to rant at you Offerer, but tight tolerances have nothing to do with Glocks going KB! What the problem is is the unsupported chamber in a Glock vs. 1911 and nothing more. I looked at the 1911 that went KB and from my years of experience I would say that the person was firing that fired that weapon had a barrel burst due to some obstruction in the barrel. Maybe he had a squib load that made its way to the end of the barrel and was able to eject the case and reload another round and then KB! We will never know because the ones who put the pictures there did not bother to explain what happened. Curious wouldn't you say! If it was the factory's fault, someone would surely have wanted that info out. If it was a reloading error, double charge, maybe the dummy didn't want to seem the fool on the internet. Just a very curious situation. I did not originally comment on it because of this. Requires too much speculation.

Now for your concept of reloading. I have been reloading for neigh on 40 years. Started as a kid and even cast my own bullets. Your concept of a "fat case" comes from where? Please enlighten me. Cases are resized to SAAMI specifications before they are reloaded by what they call a "RESIZING" die that not only puts the case back to specs, but deprimes the case in one stroke of the press. In my case, my carry gun was specially fitted with a match barrel with a match cut chamber. This is tighter than a normal 1911 and way tighter than any Glock ever thought of being. When he cut the chamber, he also cut me a resizing die made from the same reamer that cut the barrel to ensure that the two would be a match for that barrel. You don't get any tighter than that. My barrel is also throated which means that a smal part of the chamber does not support the whole case head. This is known information to me and I reload accordingly keeping that utmost in my mind.

I reload for two reasons. Number one is that yes, it is cheaper. Number two, although your misstate information is wrong, I can make better ammunition for my gun than any factory ammo in existence . The accuracy proves that time and time again. Just for your information, I am about 40,000 rounds of .45 ACP short of 500,000 reloaded in my lifetime and I still reload them weekly! Funny, I have never had a KB with any of my 1911's at any time. I put a minimum of about 300 rounds downrange a week! I know my 1911 and I know my reloads. No factory ammo can come close.

Same holds true of my other pistols and rifles. I reload for them all. Never had a KB in any weapon. I once had a squib load in a 12 guage shotshell, but I was smart enough to stop and make sure the barrel was unobstructed BEFORE I continued hunting.

Therefore, I consider your information and your theory of reloading as extremely questionable. If you care to see what I reload for, just got to the reloading forum down below and see for yourself.

Just so we do not get off topic here, we were talking about 1911 vs Glock KB! A USP45 is NOT a 1911 in any way shape or form. It has a plastic lower with steel rails similar to a GLOCK! However, IMHO I consider the HK way out in front of a GLOCK and also not up to a 1911. If you read and look at the article you linked to, the case web blew out due to a UNSUPPORTED CHAMBER and an overload. I use red dot in my shotguns and no one will convinve me that the powder shown is not red dot. I've used many tens of the stuff and with a top load of 5.0 gr of red dot, they found 8.3 gr in the ammo. More than enough to practically double or triple the chamber pressure. No pistol would hold up to that.

I invite you to go down to our ammo and reloading forum here and join in. You many learn alot about what it's all about and it may clarify some of your misgivings about the practice.


Here's another link to a GLOCK failure. This time a 17!

Glocks Still Suck

One more thing that I preach whole heartedly.

NEVER shoot someone elses reloads!!!

They were reloaded for a specific weapon and that weapon alone. They can be dangerous in someone elses gun!!!!!

[offeror]

In my years of experience I have heard all about the unsupported case "problem"; I thought maybe somebody had something new to add, but nope. The Glock is not the only gun with a feed ramp that encroaches slightly on the chamber, but the Glock is the only one singled out as if this were a design flaw. Yet Glocks shoot all day in torture tests (and their "plastic" survives drop tests from helicopters better than 1911s in many cases).

When reloading, you may indeed re-size those cases, but then you ram a new bullet into them. Unless that is done with precision, a warped case is still possible. I know because I have watched reloads fail to fit down the pipe of my Glocks from time to time -- clear it and the next one goes right in... Factory ammo is quality controlled and tested in all kinds of guns, and I'm sure Ayoob and his friends at Cor-Bon shoot plenty through his Glocks without problems. I have never seen a fat case produced in a batch of factory ammo and have never had a factory round stick in the chamber with the slide out of battery. But I've seen this with reloads.

This was not a Glock vs. 1911 thread (see the thread title). It was just another of those Glock KB threads that includes posters who prefer a different brand. Putting a lot of smilies in the Glock Sucks posts implies the "criticism" of Glocks (they "suck" and are "plastic") was only a joke. I doubted that was strictly so, and it seems I've been proven correct.

Polymers these days are composites, and many of them are relied upon for survival in lots of different critical areas on very expensive products, by the way. The Germans created the world standard for measuring the properties of poly composites for serious use and America often imports fine German poly materials by the ton because their quality is better than we produce ourselves. No doubt the Austrians took advantage of this expertise when Gaston invented the Glock. What he did was really not that dissimilar from what Stoner did when he invented the AR -- he simply took familiar science from his own background in aircraft and applied new, strong materials in designing a lighter weapon. All the hysterics about "plastic guns" ignores the fact that the barrel, chamber, bolt, slide, extractor, springs, and other areas of the Glock that manipulate and fire the rounds -- are high grade steel with a nearly indestructible finish, of course.

It's not written anywhere that a gun is "supposed to protect you," as you claim, from explosions caused by negligent behavior or outright bad ammo; that's a notion some shooters have developed on their own, I think. On the contrary, all gun companies have user manuals which state reloads void the warranty. If you make a gun so well that it can go 100,000 rounds or 300,000 rounds without a failure with factory ammo, that would be above average, in fact.

And even if you find an occasional fired case with a slight bulge where the "unsupported" area is, unless you wanted to reload that case what difference does it make? I don't reload, so my cases get swept into a can at the end of the day, unexamined. But the guns and ammo (including Cor-Bon +p stuff) have worked great for me since 1985, and I've personally carried a G17, 19, 21, 23, 26, 27 and 30 (so far). There's them smilies again, makin' it all okay.... Hope this helps ya out.

[offeror]

And by the way, I have nothing against reloading. I'd like to get into it myself one day.

I'd simply add two facts as cautions for any reloader who shoots modern guns with them -- every gun a reloader owns has a voided warranty unless the manual says otherwise (period) and cannot honestly, and I emphasize honestly, be sent back to the factory for warranty work if it breaks. This should probably be more of an issue with potential gun buyers on the private market, in fact.

And you should load reloads for defense ONLY in guns that are proven 100% reliable with your own reloads, and then you do so at your own risk (and liability in court). It is certain the PD will notice, and the other guy's lawyer will want to know all about the "special" rounds you used.

I never shoot other people's reloads either, by the way, unless its junk ammo for practice, and then it has to be cased, because I won't fill my lungs with lead anymore.

Other than that, I love the concept of reloading; used to watch my uncle reload shotgun shells. One day I may have a shop for that purpose somewhere in my home, for fun and relaxation -- even though the media, if they had reason to notice, would sensationalize it as a "cache of gunpowder and bullet-making paraphernalia!"