Looking for advice - The Firearms Forum

Model American · 10-06-2003, 11:25 PM

I went to my gun guy and whined about my trouble clustering my shots with a .40S&W's. He suggested I shoot a lighter load. I nodded and pretended that I knew what he meant and now I need to know what is a good load to fire off for range purposes?

Xracer · 10-07-2003, 07:40 AM

Are you asking factory load or handload?

Model American · 10-07-2003, 11:27 AM

Factory load.

armedandsafe · 10-07-2003, 01:21 PM

What he is suggesting is to lighten the recoil and noise, so you can concentrate more on maintaining position. The problem with going to a lighter load at the range, is the difference in point-of-impact, compared to the full power load carried for defense/hunting. This can be worked around with practice.

The key to accuracy is repeatability. If the gun/cartridge does the same thing every time you pull the trigger, the major factor left is your hand and your head. Dry firing will train your hand to do the same thing every time, as will shooting with squib loads. This is an important part of accuracy training, but only a part of it.

Shooting is the only thing which will really bring your groups into focus. I have had good luck with teaching point shooting progressing to aimed fire, when nothing else seemed to work. I have had good luck teaching bench shooting progressing to aimed fire, when nothing else seemed to work. I remember one student who was having trouble finding a barn wall while inside the barn. I finally put him into a modified TaiChi routine which brought him around to be a pretty good shooter.

I know this doesn't answer the question you asked, but that is the chance you take when you sign on here.

Pops is back

renaissance7697 · 10-07-2003, 01:54 PM

Tell us (me) more about this:
"Modified Tai Chi" routine.

skiingfool1974 · 10-07-2003, 07:46 PM

Model American,

Try placing a dime on the top of the front sight and practice dry firing the pistol. The object here is to keep the dime on every time you pull the trigger. You'll find out just how much you are moving the gun when doing this.

If all you use the gun for is plinking, then by all means find a load that doesn't kick as much, but if you use it for self defense, then you want to get used to the gun shooting the same loads you hopefully will never need to use in a self defense situation.

Evan

p.s. You can do the dime thing while watching tv once you get good at it. Just remember to make sure that the gun is unloaded

Model American · 10-07-2003, 10:52 PM

sounds easy enough, but it is best to use snap caps when dry firing correct?

armedandsafe · 10-08-2003, 03:32 PM

It is always better to use snap caps than not. I've dryfired one of my pistols tens of thousands of times without snap caps, but I know of others who broke firing pins within a few hundred snaps.

There are several Tai Chi moves which involve sweeping the arms about the waist and out to the strike zone. Since this lad was already into Tai Chi, I just modified two of the moves to include the drawing of the piece and moving it to "present" position. THis anchored his movements, centered his balance, and got the piece presented in the same position for his eye every time. We then moved on to "shoot/no-shoot."

It was interesting, watching him bow to the targets at his final qualification shoot.

I like the dime idea. I presume now you can stand it on edge?

Pops

skiingfool1974 · 10-08-2003, 05:13 PM

Model American: Yes, you should use snap caps. I've only busted one firing pin, but that's one too many.

Armedandsafe, of course I can stand the dime on edge... actually, I can ballance the tip of a pin on the site (provided I dip the tip in crazy glue

)

armedandsafe · 10-09-2003, 02:04 PM

Kinda gives it away when you drop the piece to your side and bring it back up with the dime still there?

Pops

Tony Mig · 10-09-2003, 07:28 PM

.40S&W comes in 4 basic factory bullet wieghts...180gr, 165gr, 155gr and 140gr. I've found as a general rule that the lighter the bullet wieght, the hotter the charge to make up for it.

I've found that I do my best with the 180gr. FMJ. I use Winchester (white box), Remington UMC, or Wolf. I tried CCI Blaser, but my Beretta 96 doesn't like it, and niether do I. It's hotter than the others, and I find it harder to control. I actually do best with the Wolf 180gr. FMJ.

Model American · 10-10-2003, 09:17 PM

Okay. So I went to the range today and I shot my 1st 50 rounds better than I could have imagined. And I used the 180 gr rounds. I guess I just had to focus on technique. But, my next 50 was all over the place. I quit for the day after that debacle.

armedandsafe · 10-11-2003, 03:18 PM

Continuing to shoot after your grouping goes into the dumper is usually counterproductiive. What can help is to move to another discipline (from pistol to rifle, target to beer cans, etc.) for 30 minutes to an hour. Then come back to the discipline you are working on and fire just a few rounds, paying particular attention to the basics. 5 or 10 rounds, slow fire, heavy concentration, then put it away!

Works for me. Why should you be any different?

Pops

skiingfool1974 · 10-16-2003, 08:09 PM

Model American,

Are you shooting off handed, or are you using a rest? If you aren't using one, get a sandbag or some other kind of a rest. Shoot using that, your hand won't move, and you will be able to concentrate on your trigger pull. Your groupings will get much better, and then, once you get good groupings that way, then try it w/out a rest.

Also, start out using the closest target at the range. If it's only a 7' burm, so be it. Get so that you shoot well there, then move onto a further distance. It may be a pain, but it will work.

Keep us posted on the progress.

Evan

Model American · 10-24-2003, 08:03 PM

I was shooting off handed. I am considering leaving probation for the Sheriff dept, so I figured it would be best to learn to shoot the way I would later on down the line. Anyway, seems that i just needed to practice. My clustering is much better, I just seem to be too far to the left of the silhouette right now.

armedandsafe · 10-24-2003, 09:47 PM

Sights can be adjusted by drifting them in the dovetail with a brass punch and a small hammer.

Assuming you have non-adjustable sights or don't want to pound on your piece:

If you are shooting right-handed, try putting a little tape on the right side of the grip, building it up about 1/16 to 1/8 inch. This "palm swell" sometimes helps.

If that makes you shoot even farther left, then build up the back, right side of the grip. When you find the right palm swell, it will tell you how you should adjust your grip, or modify your pistol's grips to get the proper "handle" on your problem. I've found it is much faster to modify the pistol's grips than to retrain your hand to a new grasp.

If you are shooting to the left, you are probably not wrapping your hand far enough around the grip. It might be too big for your hand, out you might not be seating the backstrap into the web of your thumb.

Cliff · 10-29-2003, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Model American
I went to my gun guy and whined about my trouble clustering my shots with a .40S&W's. He suggested I shoot a lighter load. I nodded and pretended that I knew what he meant and now I need to know what is a good load to fire off for range purposes?

MA, you really need to be on better terms with your gun guy, is he a 'smith or is he just a gun guy? But he has to know exactly what is going on otherwise he will tell you something that, in the past, you have shown to know more than you really do!!!!Don't back away from the truth.

Please
TIA

10-06-2003, 11:25 PM	#1
Model American Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chicago,IL Posts: 16	Looking for advice I went to my gun guy and whined about my trouble clustering my shots with a .40S&W's. He suggested I shoot a lighter load. I nodded and pretended that I knew what he meant and now I need to know what is a good load to fire off for range purposes? -->

10-07-2003, 01:54 PM	#5
renaissance7697 Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: No VA Posts: 33	Tai Chi ? Tell us (me) more about this: "Modified Tai Chi" routine. __________________ An Armed Society Is a Polite Society

10-08-2003, 03:32 PM	#8
armedandsafe Former Guest Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Moses Lake, WA Posts: 10,344	It is always better to use snap caps than not. I've dryfired one of my pistols tens of thousands of times without snap caps, but I know of others who broke firing pins within a few hundred snaps. There are several Tai Chi moves which involve sweeping the arms about the waist and out to the strike zone. Since this lad was already into Tai Chi, I just modified two of the moves to include the drawing of the piece and moving it to "present" position. THis anchored his movements, centered his balance, and got the piece presented in the same position for his eye every time. We then moved on to "shoot/no-shoot." It was interesting, watching him bow to the targets at his final qualification shoot. I like the dime idea. I presume now you can stand it on edge? Pops Last edited by armedandsafe; 10-08-2003 at 03:34 PM..

10-09-2003, 07:28 PM	#11
Tony Mig Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Sorprano State Posts: 716	.40S&W comes in 4 basic factory bullet wieghts...180gr, 165gr, 155gr and 140gr. I've found as a general rule that the lighter the bullet wieght, the hotter the charge to make up for it. I've found that I do my best with the 180gr. FMJ. I use Winchester (white box), Remington UMC, or Wolf. I tried CCI Blaser, but my Beretta 96 doesn't like it, and niether do I. It's hotter than the others, and I find it harder to control. I actually do best with the Wolf 180gr. FMJ. __________________ "I solemnly swear to tell the truth as I know it, the whole truth as I believe it to be, and nothing but what I think you need to know." New Jersey Politician's oath of office O /\ (( -------------v-

10-07-2003, 07:40 AM	#2
Xracer TFF Admin Staff Mediator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet! Posts: 9,144	Are you asking factory load or handload?

10-07-2003, 11:27 AM	#3
Model American Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chicago,IL Posts: 16	Factory load.

10-07-2003, 01:21 PM	#4
armedandsafe Former Guest Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Moses Lake, WA Posts: 10,344	What he is suggesting is to lighten the recoil and noise, so you can concentrate more on maintaining position. The problem with going to a lighter load at the range, is the difference in point-of-impact, compared to the full power load carried for defense/hunting. This can be worked around with practice. The key to accuracy is repeatability. If the gun/cartridge does the same thing every time you pull the trigger, the major factor left is your hand and your head. Dry firing will train your hand to do the same thing every time, as will shooting with squib loads. This is an important part of accuracy training, but only a part of it. Shooting is the only thing which will really bring your groups into focus. I have had good luck with teaching point shooting progressing to aimed fire, when nothing else seemed to work. I have had good luck teaching bench shooting progressing to aimed fire, when nothing else seemed to work. I remember one student who was having trouble finding a barn wall while inside the barn. I finally put him into a modified TaiChi routine which brought him around to be a pretty good shooter. I know this doesn't answer the question you asked, but that is the chance you take when you sign on here. Pops is back

10-07-2003, 07:46 PM	#6
skiingfool1974 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Vermont Posts: 242	Model American, Try placing a dime on the top of the front sight and practice dry firing the pistol. The object here is to keep the dime on every time you pull the trigger. You'll find out just how much you are moving the gun when doing this. If all you use the gun for is plinking, then by all means find a load that doesn't kick as much, but if you use it for self defense, then you want to get used to the gun shooting the same loads you hopefully will never need to use in a self defense situation. Evan p.s. You can do the dime thing while watching tv once you get good at it. Just remember to make sure that the gun is unloaded

10-07-2003, 10:52 PM	#7
Model American Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chicago,IL Posts: 16	sounds easy enough, but it is best to use snap caps when dry firing correct?

10-08-2003, 05:13 PM	#9
skiingfool1974 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Vermont Posts: 242	Model American: Yes, you should use snap caps. I've only busted one firing pin, but that's one too many. Armedandsafe, of course I can stand the dime on edge... actually, I can ballance the tip of a pin on the site (provided I dip the tip in crazy glue )

10-09-2003, 02:04 PM	#10
armedandsafe Former Guest Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Moses Lake, WA Posts: 10,344	Kinda gives it away when you drop the piece to your side and bring it back up with the dime still there? Pops

10-10-2003, 09:17 PM	#12
Model American Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chicago,IL Posts: 16	Okay. So I went to the range today and I shot my 1st 50 rounds better than I could have imagined. And I used the 180 gr rounds. I guess I just had to focus on technique. But, my next 50 was all over the place. I quit for the day after that debacle.

10-11-2003, 03:18 PM	#13
armedandsafe Former Guest Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Moses Lake, WA Posts: 10,344	Continuing to shoot after your grouping goes into the dumper is usually counterproductiive. What can help is to move to another discipline (from pistol to rifle, target to beer cans, etc.) for 30 minutes to an hour. Then come back to the discipline you are working on and fire just a few rounds, paying particular attention to the basics. 5 or 10 rounds, slow fire, heavy concentration, then put it away! Works for me. Why should you be any different? Pops

10-16-2003, 08:09 PM	#14
skiingfool1974 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Vermont Posts: 242	Model American, Are you shooting off handed, or are you using a rest? If you aren't using one, get a sandbag or some other kind of a rest. Shoot using that, your hand won't move, and you will be able to concentrate on your trigger pull. Your groupings will get much better, and then, once you get good groupings that way, then try it w/out a rest. Also, start out using the closest target at the range. If it's only a 7' burm, so be it. Get so that you shoot well there, then move onto a further distance. It may be a pain, but it will work. Keep us posted on the progress. Evan

10-24-2003, 08:03 PM	#15
Model American Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chicago,IL Posts: 16	I was shooting off handed. I am considering leaving probation for the Sheriff dept, so I figured it would be best to learn to shoot the way I would later on down the line. Anyway, seems that i just needed to practice. My clustering is much better, I just seem to be too far to the left of the silhouette right now.

10-24-2003, 09:47 PM	#16
armedandsafe Former Guest Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Moses Lake, WA Posts: 10,344	Sights can be adjusted by drifting them in the dovetail with a brass punch and a small hammer. Assuming you have non-adjustable sights or don't want to pound on your piece: If you are shooting right-handed, try putting a little tape on the right side of the grip, building it up about 1/16 to 1/8 inch. This "palm swell" sometimes helps. If that makes you shoot even farther left, then build up the back, right side of the grip. When you find the right palm swell, it will tell you how you should adjust your grip, or modify your pistol's grips to get the proper "handle" on your problem. I've found it is much faster to modify the pistol's grips than to retrain your hand to a new grasp. If you are shooting to the left, you are probably not wrapping your hand far enough around the grip. It might be too big for your hand, out you might not be seating the backstrap into the web of your thumb.