Help with bullet seating die - The Firearms Forum

quadcrazy · 01-02-2010, 05:44 PM

Newbee here.

I'm trying to set up my Lyman press for the first time to reload 38 special and I'm having troubles with crimping. No matter how far I set the bullet in the die, I can't seem to get the case to crimp. I've tried everything I can imagine yet don't seem to be getting any crimp at all.

What am I doing wrong?

Freebore · 01-02-2010, 06:37 PM

Try setting the ram (press) all the way to the up position, and run the seating die down until it touches the ram, this will give you the maximum crimp that the die can provide (if it has a crimp feature)

cycloneman · 01-02-2010, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freebore

Try setting the ram (press) all the way to the up position, and run the seating die down until it touches the ram, this will give you the maximum crimp that the die can provide (if it has a crimp feature)

good point

Since this is your first time you need to read the instructions for the dies again and follow them exactly. This should solve your problem

Gearheadpyro · 01-02-2010, 06:59 PM

I'm with the above. Not all bullet seating dies have a crimp feature. What kind of die are you using?

You could always pick up a Lee Factory Crimp Die to crimp with. I use one for my .40's and love it. It also resizes the to ensure 100% feeding reliability.

muddober · 01-02-2010, 09:33 PM

Gearheadpyro: I have never seen a bullet seating die that does not have some type of crimp feature be it a tapered or roll crimp. But then again there are a lot things I haven't seen.

I am 100% with Freebore on what to do and would add that it sounds like you are trying to find the crimp by pushing the bullet further in instead of lowering the die which will then cause you to back off on the bullet depth.

Ron

Gearheadpyro · 01-02-2010, 10:06 PM

I may have to eat my words here, muddober. I thought that the Lee pistol bullet seating dies did not crimp as Lee has the Factory Crimp Die for that.

After digging a little bit more it turns out that the seating dies can crimp, but it is not the preffered method (as per Lee, http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/faq/index.cgi).

quadcrazy · 01-02-2010, 10:44 PM

Thanks for all the great advise. I have thoroughly read the setup instructions for the RCBS dies and they aren't real clear. I have run the shell all the way up into the die and I get no crimping. I should be getting a roll crimp but no matter what I try I'm not getting any crimp at all. I've had a couple friends read the instructions as well and they didn't understand them any better than I did. Is there any more information I can provide to get better guidance?

Thanks again for all the help.

Freebore · 01-02-2010, 11:15 PM

Another suggestion....pull the die and remove the seating stem, you should be able to see the crimping shoulder inside the die. One last thought...are you by any chance using a .357 seating die on a .38 Special case ? OAL is .135" longer on the .357

Bindernut · 01-03-2010, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freebore

One last thought...are you by any chance using a .357 seating die on a .38 Special case ? OAL is .135" longer on the .357

After reading the post that said these are RCBS dies, that was my first thought too.
RCBS does make (or did make) a dedicated .357 Mag seating/crimp die that is too deep to allow crimping .38Spcl cases. They do seat bullets in .38Spcl brass just fine though.
(I've got one laying around in one of my junk boxes).

To the OP...Is the die (or the box for your whole set) marked .38/.357 or just .357Mag?

RCBS seater/crimp dies for the .357 should do a fairly nice roll crimp (unless the brass is too short).

rocklinskier · 01-03-2010, 07:54 AM

Also new to reloading and have just this week got thru my first batch. Maybe this will help, maybe not.

1) Are you useing RCBS dies or Lee Dies? I think the lee dies intend for the fourth die to be a 'crimping' die, rather than the combo. RCBS uses the same die for seating and crimping

The RCBS die should have a stamp on it. Make sure you are using the correct die. Make sure that you haven't confused the resizing die with the crimping die or something of that nature.

2) If using RCBS (what I am using and getting familiar with):

I am using a tapered crimp die Marked with "TC" on the die.

After you have seated your bullets to the proper COL, back off the seating stem several turns. You can even completely remove it if you want. Now start adjusting the die down about a 1/4 turn at a time. Pull the lever. Each time, measure the case mouth with a pair of calipers. It took more turns than I expected before getting the adequate crimp dia. accomplished.

As stated above, If you run the die as deep as you can, (do not let the die collide with the shell holder) you will acheive max crimp, but I'm sure that this would be too much, unless you have the wrong die.

3) Are you actually measuring the case mouth? You can't necessarily 'see' the crimp. Look at a factory loaded round. You don't visually see any crimp, but if you measure, you will see a notable diff between the belled case and the finished case.

4) Last but not least, take a finished round, observing ALL SAFETY RULES, drop it into an empty chamber. It should drop in fully without binding. If it binds, it is not crimped properly

Many here with WAY more experience than me. Feel free to correct any misleading or mistated process here.

Hope this helps......aka blind leading the blind !!! Yikes!

mikld · 01-03-2010, 11:10 AM

I seat and crimp separately, using same Lee die. I back the die body out a bit and adjust seating stem to depth I need, and seat all boolits. Then I back out the seating stem and lower the die body to get the crimp I want. I do this with .38 Spec., 357 Mag. .44 Special, and .44 Mag. I don't like the factory crimp die because it sizes the round after the boolit is seated. Some of my ammo is "over diameter" for shooting in my over bore guns and I think th FC die sizes them down too much. Just my 2 centavos.

The way I set up to crimp; put an empty case in the press and run the ram all the way up. Screw in the die with seating stem backed way out, until you feel the die contact the case (you will feel the crimp taper in the die hit the mouth of the case with good resistance) . Lower the ram, run the die in 1/2 turn. Fine tune (die up or down) until you get the crimp needed.

quadcrazy · 01-03-2010, 11:14 AM

Thanks again for the replies.

Rocklinskier - These are some great suggestions... especially for a newbee like yourself.

1) I am using RCBS dies (carbide 3 die set) and they are labeled 38spl/357. I double checked to see if I had the resizing die mixed up with the crimping die (great suggestion) and it was correct.

2) I have done this. I slowly turned the die all the way down to the bottom and I was never at any point able to slide a round into an empty chamber. I haven't used my calipers I've just been using the "drop in the chamber method".

You can now begin to see my confusion here. I'm starting to think I may have a die without a crimping shoulder. I still need to pull the crimping die and visually check to see if I can see a crimping shoulder. Other than that, I'm at a loss of what to do next.

Quadcrazy going crazy.

312shooter · 01-03-2010, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadcrazy

Thanks again for the replies.

2) I have done this. I slowly turned the die all the way down to the bottom

Quadcrazy going crazy.

Not sure but try this:

1 - remove the seater plug from the seating die
2 - turn locking ring to the top of the die
3 - thread die into press 3- 4 turns
4 - place sized shell into holder, raise ram to top cam over and HOLD THERE
5 - while holding shell at top of stroke thread die down until contact is felt
6 - back ram/shell down and screw die in 1/4 turn, hold die simultaneously lower locking ring and turn tight.
7 - this should be the location of a crimp so you can fine adjust from here.

muddober · 01-03-2010, 06:08 PM

quadcrazy: I am begining to think you have a bad set of dies. Any chance you can get your hands on a couple of 357 mag cases so you could try seating and crimping the a bullet of the longer case? Just a thought.

Ron

quadcrazy · 01-03-2010, 06:28 PM

The directions from RCBS are very similar to your recommendation. The problem I'm having is when I raise the ram to the top of the stroke, I'm basically only about 1 thread deep when the die touches the mouth. Is this normal? It doesn't seem right.

quadcrazy · 01-03-2010, 06:47 PM

That's a good thought Muddober but I don't know anybody that reloads or shoots a 357.

rocklinskier · 01-04-2010, 08:07 AM

Here's an odd thought. Take the die out of the press. Now take an empty cartridge in one hand (no powder or bullet), die in the other.

Can you put the cartride into the die? Does it slide all the way in to the die with little or no resistance? Try it with both your open, resized case, and maybe with a factory load. If BOTH will go into the seating die all the way without resistance, then obviously the die is the incorrect one. If the factory round meets resistance, but your empty case doesnt', then something is off with the resizing die. This will also give you an idea of how far the die should go down on the case to get proper crimp.

I really recommend a caliper to check diameter of the case. This will help solve a lot of guess work. Calipers aren't all that expensive and the only way to know if your getting the crimping to the correct spec. Also really essential to determining Case Overall Length or COL/COAL

After that, I'm pretty much out of ideas. You may have to give RCBS a call.

Texxut · 01-04-2010, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadcrazy

...The problem I'm having is when I raise the ram to the top of the stroke, I'm basically only about 1 thread deep when the die touches the mouth. Is this normal? It doesn't seem right.

Sounds to me as if you have over belled the case and it is hitting the bottom of the die rather than entering the die. Some resistance is normal if you have belled the case mouth. If you belled it too much it won't enter the die.
Are these new dies?
Have you cleaned them thoroughly? (they come in shipping oil) they should be used clean and dry.
As another has suggested:
remove the die,
remove the seater plug,
clean the die inside and out,
look at the inside, you should see a tiny ridge less than a case length in the die,
take a sized case, do not bell it, wipe it clean,
push the case up in the die with your thumb, it should stop with about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch sticking out.

do that and let us know you find.

Villager · 01-04-2010, 01:21 PM

RCBS 38/357 and 44/44mag dies come with a spacer washer to be used with 35 7 & 44mag. Your not using this washer under your die for 38 spec are you?
Tom

quadcrazy · 01-04-2010, 01:30 PM

Good thought but no, I'm not using the washer.

quadcrazy · 01-04-2010, 01:39 PM

I removed the die,
removed the seater plug,
cleaned the die inside and out, (yes, I am using new dies)
looked at the inside, and I can see a tiny ridge less than a case length in the die,
I took a sized case, did not bell it, wiped it clean,
pushed the case up in the die with my thumb, and it stopped with about a 1/16 inch sticking out. It's basically all the way down to the shell holder. Does that seem right?

quadcrazy · 01-04-2010, 02:36 PM

Thanks to everyone's help, I finally got this all figured out. Does everyone have difficulties with this step in the process when they're starting out? It seems like a good video tutorial on this step is needed. Maybe as I get more familiar and experienced with this I will put a video tutorial on YouTube, then you can just send everyone to this video when this common question comes up.

Thanks again everybody for all your help and patience.

muddober · 01-04-2010, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadcrazy

Thanks to everyone's help, I finally got this all figured out. Does everyone have difficulties with this step in the process when they're starting out? It seems like a good video tutorial on this step is needed. Maybe as I get more familiar and experienced with this I will put a video tutorial on YouTube, then you can just send everyone to this video when this common question comes up.

Thanks again everybody for all your help and patience.

Hey you not getting off that easy,

tell us what you did to fix it. Don't leave us with a mystery. My guess is that you did not have the die screwed down far enough, what say you?

Ron

rocklinskier · 01-05-2010, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muddober

Hey you not getting off that easy,

tell us what you did to fix it. Don't leave us with a mystery. My guess is that you did not have the die screwed down far enough, what say you?

Ron

+1---What was the cure??

quadcrazy · 01-05-2010, 08:49 PM

I wasn't doing a lot of things right. I had flared the mouth too much so when it says to run the die down until it touches, it was touching the mouth of the casing and not even entering the die. Putting a new un-belled shell in until it touched the crimp area (as you suggested) helped me see where in the die the crimp started.

Then when the seater plug is used to seat the bullet to the needed depth, I wasn't backing it off so the crimp could be adjusted. Once I backed off the seater plug, allowing the crimp to take place and then setting the seater plug again everything fell into place.

Like I said, a whole lot of things went wrong which added to my madness as well as yours I'm guessing.

As a newbe, this forum has helped me several times and I truely appreciate the time you and everyone else takes out of their day to help a guy out. I've never had the opportunity to watch somebody reload so I'm learning everything the hard way.

Thanks again everyone...till next time.

01-02-2010, 05:44 PM	#1
quadcrazy Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Bonney Lake, WA Posts: 21	Help with bullet seating die Newbee here. I'm trying to set up my Lyman press for the first time to reload 38 special and I'm having troubles with crimping. No matter how far I set the bullet in the die, I can't seem to get the case to crimp. I've tried everything I can imagine yet don't seem to be getting any crimp at all. What am I doing wrong? -->

01-02-2010, 06:37 PM	#2
Freebore V.I.P. Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Midwest USA Posts: 265	Re: Help with bullet seating die Try setting the ram (press) all the way to the up position, and run the seating die down until it touches the ram, this will give you the maximum crimp that the die can provide (if it has a crimp feature)

01-02-2010, 06:59 PM	#4
Gearheadpyro V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 110	Re: Help with bullet seating die I'm with the above. Not all bullet seating dies have a crimp feature. What kind of die are you using? You could always pick up a Lee Factory Crimp Die to crimp with. I use one for my .40's and love it. It also resizes the to ensure 100% feeding reliability. __________________ www.southernmarksman.com Owner of & Chief Instructor for The Southern Marksman, LLC NRA Life Member, NRA CRSO, Multi-Discipline NRA Certified Instructor

01-02-2010, 09:33 PM	#5
muddober Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,436	Re: Help with bullet seating die Gearheadpyro: I have never seen a bullet seating die that does not have some type of crimp feature be it a tapered or roll crimp. But then again there are a lot things I haven't seen. I am 100% with Freebore on what to do and would add that it sounds like you are trying to find the crimp by pushing the bullet further in instead of lowering the die which will then cause you to back off on the bullet depth. Ron

01-02-2010, 10:06 PM	#6
Gearheadpyro V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 110	Re: Help with bullet seating die I may have to eat my words here, muddober. I thought that the Lee pistol bullet seating dies did not crimp as Lee has the Factory Crimp Die for that. After digging a little bit more it turns out that the seating dies can crimp, but it is not the preffered method (as per Lee, http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/faq/index.cgi). __________________ www.southernmarksman.com Owner of & Chief Instructor for The Southern Marksman, LLC NRA Life Member, NRA CRSO, Multi-Discipline NRA Certified Instructor

01-02-2010, 10:44 PM	#7
quadcrazy Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Bonney Lake, WA Posts: 21	Re: Help with bullet seating die Thanks for all the great advise. I have thoroughly read the setup instructions for the RCBS dies and they aren't real clear. I have run the shell all the way up into the die and I get no crimping. I should be getting a roll crimp but no matter what I try I'm not getting any crimp at all. I've had a couple friends read the instructions as well and they didn't understand them any better than I did. Is there any more information I can provide to get better guidance? Thanks again for all the help.

01-02-2010, 11:15 PM	#8
Freebore V.I.P. Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Midwest USA Posts: 265	Re: Help with bullet seating die Another suggestion....pull the die and remove the seating stem, you should be able to see the crimping shoulder inside the die. One last thought...are you by any chance using a .357 seating die on a .38 Special case ? OAL is .135" longer on the .357

01-03-2010, 07:54 AM	#10
rocklinskier V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 295	Re: Help with bullet seating die Also new to reloading and have just this week got thru my first batch. Maybe this will help, maybe not. 1) Are you useing RCBS dies or Lee Dies? I think the lee dies intend for the fourth die to be a 'crimping' die, rather than the combo. RCBS uses the same die for seating and crimping The RCBS die should have a stamp on it. Make sure you are using the correct die. Make sure that you haven't confused the resizing die with the crimping die or something of that nature. 2) If using RCBS (what I am using and getting familiar with): I am using a tapered crimp die Marked with "TC" on the die. After you have seated your bullets to the proper COL, back off the seating stem several turns. You can even completely remove it if you want. Now start adjusting the die down about a 1/4 turn at a time. Pull the lever. Each time, measure the case mouth with a pair of calipers. It took more turns than I expected before getting the adequate crimp dia. accomplished. As stated above, If you run the die as deep as you can, (do not let the die collide with the shell holder) you will acheive max crimp, but I'm sure that this would be too much, unless you have the wrong die. 3) Are you actually measuring the case mouth? You can't necessarily 'see' the crimp. Look at a factory loaded round. You don't visually see any crimp, but if you measure, you will see a notable diff between the belled case and the finished case. 4) Last but not least, take a finished round, observing ALL SAFETY RULES, drop it into an empty chamber. It should drop in fully without binding. If it binds, it is not crimped properly Many here with WAY more experience than me. Feel free to correct any misleading or mistated process here. Hope this helps......aka blind leading the blind !!! Yikes! __________________ Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it on to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it was once like in the United States where men were free ~Ronald Reagan.

01-03-2010, 11:10 AM	#11
mikld Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Oregon Posts: 573	Re: Help with bullet seating die I seat and crimp separately, using same Lee die. I back the die body out a bit and adjust seating stem to depth I need, and seat all boolits. Then I back out the seating stem and lower the die body to get the crimp I want. I do this with .38 Spec., 357 Mag. .44 Special, and .44 Mag. I don't like the factory crimp die because it sizes the round after the boolit is seated. Some of my ammo is "over diameter" for shooting in my over bore guns and I think th FC die sizes them down too much. Just my 2 centavos. The way I set up to crimp; put an empty case in the press and run the ram all the way up. Screw in the die with seating stem backed way out, until you feel the die contact the case (you will feel the crimp taper in the die hit the mouth of the case with good resistance) . Lower the ram, run the die in 1/2 turn. Fine tune (die up or down) until you get the crimp needed. __________________ My Anchor is holding fast. Last edited by mikld; 01-04-2010 at 11:35 AM..

01-03-2010, 11:14 AM	#12
quadcrazy Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Bonney Lake, WA Posts: 21	Re: Help with bullet seating die Thanks again for the replies. Rocklinskier - These are some great suggestions... especially for a newbee like yourself. 1) I am using RCBS dies (carbide 3 die set) and they are labeled 38spl/357. I double checked to see if I had the resizing die mixed up with the crimping die (great suggestion) and it was correct. 2) I have done this. I slowly turned the die all the way down to the bottom and I was never at any point able to slide a round into an empty chamber. I haven't used my calipers I've just been using the "drop in the chamber method". You can now begin to see my confusion here. I'm starting to think I may have a die without a crimping shoulder. I still need to pull the crimping die and visually check to see if I can see a crimping shoulder. Other than that, I'm at a loss of what to do next. Quadcrazy going crazy. Last edited by quadcrazy; 01-03-2010 at 03:34 PM..

01-03-2010, 06:08 PM	#14
muddober Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,436	Re: Help with bullet seating die quadcrazy: I am begining to think you have a bad set of dies. Any chance you can get your hands on a couple of 357 mag cases so you could try seating and crimping the a bullet of the longer case? Just a thought. Ron

01-03-2010, 06:28 PM	#15
quadcrazy Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Bonney Lake, WA Posts: 21	Re: Help with bullet seating die The directions from RCBS are very similar to your recommendation. The problem I'm having is when I raise the ram to the top of the stroke, I'm basically only about 1 thread deep when the die touches the mouth. Is this normal? It doesn't seem right. Last edited by quadcrazy; 01-03-2010 at 06:45 PM..

01-03-2010, 06:47 PM	#16
quadcrazy Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Bonney Lake, WA Posts: 21	Re: Help with bullet seating die That's a good thought Muddober but I don't know anybody that reloads or shoots a 357.

01-04-2010, 08:07 AM	#17
rocklinskier V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 295	Re: Help with bullet seating die Here's an odd thought. Take the die out of the press. Now take an empty cartridge in one hand (no powder or bullet), die in the other. Can you put the cartride into the die? Does it slide all the way in to the die with little or no resistance? Try it with both your open, resized case, and maybe with a factory load. If BOTH will go into the seating die all the way without resistance, then obviously the die is the incorrect one. If the factory round meets resistance, but your empty case doesnt', then something is off with the resizing die. This will also give you an idea of how far the die should go down on the case to get proper crimp. I really recommend a caliper to check diameter of the case. This will help solve a lot of guess work. Calipers aren't all that expensive and the only way to know if your getting the crimping to the correct spec. Also really essential to determining Case Overall Length or COL/COAL After that, I'm pretty much out of ideas. You may have to give RCBS a call. __________________ Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it on to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it was once like in the United States where men were free ~Ronald Reagan.

01-04-2010, 01:21 PM	#19
Villager Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 6	Re: Help with bullet seating die RCBS 38/357 and 44/44mag dies come with a spacer washer to be used with 35 7 & 44mag. Your not using this washer under your die for 38 spec are you? Tom

01-04-2010, 01:30 PM	#20
quadcrazy Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Bonney Lake, WA Posts: 21	Re: Help with bullet seating die Good thought but no, I'm not using the washer.

01-04-2010, 01:39 PM	#21
quadcrazy Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Bonney Lake, WA Posts: 21	Re: Help with bullet seating die I removed the die, removed the seater plug, cleaned the die inside and out, (yes, I am using new dies) looked at the inside, and I can see a tiny ridge less than a case length in the die, I took a sized case, did not bell it, wiped it clean, pushed the case up in the die with my thumb, and it stopped with about a 1/16 inch sticking out. It's basically all the way down to the shell holder. Does that seem right? Last edited by quadcrazy; 01-04-2010 at 02:16 PM..

01-04-2010, 02:36 PM	#22
quadcrazy Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Bonney Lake, WA Posts: 21	Re: Help with bullet seating die Thanks to everyone's help, I finally got this all figured out. Does everyone have difficulties with this step in the process when they're starting out? It seems like a good video tutorial on this step is needed. Maybe as I get more familiar and experienced with this I will put a video tutorial on YouTube, then you can just send everyone to this video when this common question comes up. Thanks again everybody for all your help and patience.

01-05-2010, 08:49 PM	#25
quadcrazy Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Bonney Lake, WA Posts: 21	Re: Help with bullet seating die I wasn't doing a lot of things right. I had flared the mouth too much so when it says to run the die down until it touches, it was touching the mouth of the casing and not even entering the die. Putting a new un-belled shell in until it touched the crimp area (as you suggested) helped me see where in the die the crimp started. Then when the seater plug is used to seat the bullet to the needed depth, I wasn't backing it off so the crimp could be adjusted. Once I backed off the seater plug, allowing the crimp to take place and then setting the seater plug again everything fell into place. Like I said, a whole lot of things went wrong which added to my madness as well as yours I'm guessing. As a newbe, this forum has helped me several times and I truely appreciate the time you and everyone else takes out of their day to help a guy out. I've never had the opportunity to watch somebody reload so I'm learning everything the hard way. Thanks again everyone...till next time.