Does military deserve special treatment?

[MrWingnut10mm]

hello everyone, this is my first post, but hopefully not my last. i am in the Marines stationed here in Washington DC. my job constists of carrying a fully loaded pistol on the streets among the public every day of the year. funny thing is that i am only 19 years old. i find it odd that the military trusts me with a weapon but the law does not. i also have many friends that wanted to purchase a personal sidearm to take to war in iraq, but because they were not 21, they could not. i would like to know who here belives that it is right to deny our soldiers the right to buy fire pistols when our government finds them fit to be armed in their profession.

[armedandsafe]

Welcome to the forum, MrWingnut10mm. We hope you check in often and post as the urge calls.

No, this is one place where I don't feel being in the military should offer special treatment. You have just hit upon one of the anomalies of this generation and it's so-called "gun control" laws. If you are trustworthy enough to serve our country and lay your life on the line to protect it (and us,) you should be allowed to purchase, own, and carry a personal weapon. If I am trustworthy enough to carry children in a 50 foot long bus every day, I should be allowed to purchase, own and carry a personal weapon. Carrying this to its logical conclusion, any person should be assumed trustworthy enough to purchase, own and carry a personal weapon, until proved otherwise.

The key here is "trustworthy." Unfortunately, too many in government have decided that NO human being in this country is trustworthy.

Pops

[stash247]

Seems to me we had this same discussion, 30 years ago, when a young man like me, was old enough to be drafted, trained, and to die for his country, but not old enough to decide/vote on it's leaders, or buy a drink.
As an ex Special Forces soldier, "priveleged" to work in "exotic places", meet "Exciting people", and kill them, my answer remains the same now as then.
When the extremely astute powers that be decide you are old enough to give all, you are damned well old enough to do all, in my book.
I'm sorry that the BS Professionals in DC do not see it that way, but if you are in Texas, look me up. We'll either soar or crash, together!
If it means anything, guns and a lot of other things are a whole lot cheaper, and easier to come by, overseas; with a lot less red tape and bullshit.
Hope this helps, Terry

[Evilahole]

I hear ya...The government has had it's head up it's ass for so many years that it doesn't even realize that anything's amiss.
"Professional" polititions will always pass laws that make it easier for them to stay in power, not to uphold the Constitution. To Washington, the Constitution is little more than a chunk of bowel towel.
Untill the citizens wake up and demand more of the idiots in DC, the polititions will continue to rape the Constitution and screw us all.
Pretty sad that a man can take a bullit for his country, can be trusted to carry auto rifles, explosives, fly multi million dollar planes, but can't carry a freaking pistol.
I honestly hadn't realized that this was the case.

[SouthernMoss]

Welcome to TFF, MrWingnut10mm. I think the results of your question will be unanimous: it's just plain asinine. OF COURSE you should be able to own a pistol.


Oh, and btw, thanks for serving this great country of ours. You have my utmost gratitude and respect.

[Marlin]

Hi there MrWingnut10mm. Glad to see you at TFF.

Pull up a stump on the water's edge and dive right in. We'd love to see you often, browsing and posting. You'll find a great bunch of congenial folks and that the collective knowledge is second to none.

Thanks, too, for your valuable service to the country. Unfortunately some of the first class jack a$$es in Washington think that the 2nd Amendment isn't for anyone, or everyone, sure as DC residents. It is, to say the least, assinine. Hopefully the new court case will reverse that atitude and, also, the proposed bill in congress will get off the ground allowing you folks to protect yourselves like the rest of us.

[MrWingnut10mm]

what bill are you talking about, and what court case? this is something i would liek to follow and give my input on, since i am right here in washington.

[Marlin]

I was referring to the recent case that centred on the failure of Washington residents to have the benefit of the 2nd Amendment protections, which the lower court ruled adversely to our belief. The consideration now is whether to appeal the ruling or not. I certainly hope they do. I don't have the name of the case on the tip of my tongue but will try to ascertain it and send you a PM.

I may have been premature on congressional movement but in conversations with one strong 2nd Amendment Congressman and one Senator I know well, there is a movement to try to deal with this problem especially for persons living in the District.

[FN_Project90]

hey man valid concern. Welcome to the crew. I'm one of the younger guys around here. I have many friends in the military asking the same questions and frustrated on that very issue, its a silly law that some day the country's powers that be will either deal with properly or just sit on the 'ole thumb. One of the things that is a big deal about the drinking age is that its such a boarder line highschool age, some kids are 19 in highschool without ever having been held back, if the drinking age is 18, the average senior will be able to buy and distribute alcohol, that is the primary concern (a guilty until proven guilty atitude towards students). I do not know if I feel safe having kids High School age drink, it would certainly increase the ammount of drunken teens DUI (also more injuries and death) around here, which are high enough consequently. Unless we raise the legal driving age to 18 also, and then lower the drinking age to 16 like in Europe I don't see how kids are going to learn their limits quickly enough.

On the other hand, I think it should be up to the family to decide when their son or daughter is ready to drink, many nations have no drinking laws, but stipulate the parents may govern that aspect.

Again on a third hand (running out here) I believe anyone that is a young soldier should have all the rights of a 21 year old, no matter thier age, but the government will never pass a law that works like that, at least I don't see them making any logical decision like that...

[Marlin]

Here are some notes on the case and possible bill re: DC 2nd Amendment Rights. These notes are from the Cato Institute's web site:

On Tuesday, July 15 (2003), Senator Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) introduced a bill aimed at repealing many of the anti-gun laws in the District of Columbia. If signed into law, the bill, known as the D.C. Personal Protection Act, would render invalid a pending Second Amendment lawsuit filed by six Washington, D.C. residents, including an employee of the Cato Institute.

Robert A. Levy, Cato's senior fellow in constitutional studies, Gene Healy, Cato's senior editor, and two other local attorneys filed a lawsuit in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia on behalf of the six plaintiffs in February, arguing in their complaint that "the Second Amendment guarantees individuals a fundamental right to possess a functional, personal firearm, such as a handgun ... within the home." The case is Parker v. District of Columbia.

[ibtrukn]

YO Wingnut, U could look at it this way.......in 2 years.
"If u don't trust me with a gun, I don'r trust U with my vote"

Capeesh?






















semper fi

[inplanotx]

Hello Wingnut and welcome to TFF. I'm with the rest of the fellas and gals here. I am more in agreement with Stash as I am sure we were both in the same situations. Thanks for your service to our country and stay safe. I'm making the supposition that you are at 8th and I or embassy duty. Been to 8th and I many times and was discharged from Quantico in 1972.


Semper Fi

[stash247]

Hey, inplanotx: The kid's gettin' the same bum's rush we did.
WTH- He's a marine, and will adapt, improvise, and survive: likely, triumph, with a little help.
If he needs a leg up, he has my e-mail, and I'll call in markers all over the world for a kid like this. 'Nuff said.

[swanshot]

Hey Wingnut from down in Aus. Hope you enjoy this place as much as I do.
Back in the dark days of conscription and Vietnam we had a situation where we could serve, kill, and be killed, but not vote or drink. We had to show our paybook to get a beer at the canteen,
And an Aus soldier was on a charge for carrying any weapon that was nor reg.
Nowdays a Aus soldier can carry his own sidearm. BUT, only in a combat zone, and it must fire service ammo. 9mm, or 45 acp.

[dcd_enterprises]

Originally Posted by armedandsafe

Welcome to the forum, MrWingnut10mm. We hope you check in often and post as the urge calls.

No, this is one place where I don't feel being in the military should offer special treatment. You have just hit upon one of the anomalies of this generation and it's so-called "gun control" laws. If you are trustworthy enough to serve our country and lay your life on the line to protect it (and us,) you should be allowed to purchase, own, and carry a personal weapon. If I am trustworthy enough to carry children in a 50 foot long bus every day, I should be allowed to purchase, own and carry a personal weapon. Carrying this to its logical conclusion, any person should be assumed trustworthy enough to purchase, own and carry a personal weapon, until proved otherwise.

The key here is "trustworthy." Unfortunately, too many in government have decided that NO human being in this country is trustworthy.

Pops

Here Here, Pops

[Nortranman]

Hey Wingnut! I really simpathize with you, man. I joined the military in 1962 at the ageof 17. I remember thinking the same thoughts as you. Most of us old guys here have gone through that same process. I wish I could give you the rights and privelages that a man in your position should have. Just remember that you have friends here at TFF that do understand what your goin' through.

[delta13soultaker]

This week at work one morning we was talking about asinine stuff we've seen in places...this thread kinda rung a bell similar in kind...

Something that used to irk the hell outa me...after 9/11, when we would fly on government chartered civilian planes (of course the crew and attendents are regular airline peeps) to deploy or to training events...

...a couple times while we were lined up to board the planes (keep in mind we're lined up on the tarmac of an AFB or Army Airfield) they told us to stow our bayonets and knives from our vests and belts into our carry on bags (assault packs and helmet bags). The first time I was like, "What?? who's joke is that?! Ha ha!"...but they were serious. Keep in mind that we were all carrying firearms. I had my M4/M203 in my hands and a sidearm on my leg...by buddy had his M4 slung on his back and his M24 sniper rifle in his hands. I had to take my leatherman off my belt, my gerber tool and ka-bar off my vest...and stick them into the bag I was going to bring on the plane and put in the overhead bin. That qualify as asinine? We are required by federal law to secure knives in some way just to check the block even though I have a pistol, a carbine and a grenade launcher? But we had to do that several times.

One time we had to comply with this FAA law by putting our knives into our bags going into cargo under the plane. But we boarded with our carbines, rifles, shotguns, 203's, and machine guns and placed them between the seats, muzzles inboard. I have to lock up my gerber tool because of how a federal law is "worded" but can have my pistol in the cabin since I'm required by another federal law to maintain control of my weapons until I sign them back in? Okay then. This never happens when the Air Force moves us...but then again they don't have in-flight movies or flirting attendents lol

On the drinking thing....

My first duty station, back when I was a teenager still, was Germany. We all drank alot and it was just how it was. Every unit function had alcohol. Most activities after work included alcohol. Initiation for a new troop was to dog him out, smoke him until he could barely move, roll him in mud or snow...then give him 20 minutes to be showered and in clean civees and then take him to our favorite bar to get him as drunk as we could without actually poisoning him...lol. Ya know new troops were usually 17-19 years old. An NCO would make sure the young 11B got back to the barracks safely and that he also woke up beside the ugliest girl from the bar that was game for our tradition. As well...a guy about to PCS/DEROS back to the US, we'd get him just as drunk on his last night...most of us flew home with an evil hangover and it's a long flight. Those of us finishing our first tour were barely 21 when he got back to the US.

My next duty staion I was putting on sergeant stripes just in time to turn 22. Units in the US are way different about drinking. They will bust guys for drinking under 21 in some. I was shocked the first time I saw an E-4 get sent to the MP station to blow a breathalizer for smelling like alcohol at PT formation! My first unit...the 1SG or platoon sergeant would have just run him until he puked, then gave the kid crappy details all week. I bet I can still show someone along the roads where my first unit was where I lost my cookies while Top or my PSG lectured me about drinking after midnight during the week. "Get up! You can puke while you run, boy!!" But us young guys would have run into the sun for our NCO's and do the worst detail they gave us without hesitation or slacking...because we knew no matter how hard they were on us, first last and always our welfare was foremost to them...they'd only let us get busted as an absolute last resort.

As a young NCO in the mainland US I had, for several months, a 5 man fire team and I was the only one old enough to drink. But my guys were some drinking fools. I demanded hard work and refused to except a lower standard...but where I came from hard working troops play hard too. What I did was just let them come offpost to my house to party sometimes. I kept all car keys. We'd get utterly sloshed and they'd sleep in my living room. At 0500am I'd wake em up...drive em into the company by 0530...and by 0630 they were in formation ready to run to the sun. Other squads had guys in all kinds of trouble. I never had to stand once in the 1SG or CO office because one of my guys was downtown tearing things up or locked up in county drunk underage pending you-name-it charges. The senior NCO's knew what I did. Some took the attitude that we were blurring the line between junior enlisted and NCO fratenization. But time showed my team was the most cohesive in any situation and had the highest PT average in the platoon. In garrison they worked hard and always had their stuff tight. In the field they trained hard...they were highly aggressive and exceeded standards...they took on challenges and trained until they could execute swift and violently. My boys snapped to parade-rest the instant an NCO spoke to them, called At-Ease as soon as an NCO entered the room, even stopped and assumed parade-rest against the wall to let an NCO pass in the hallway. Just like in my first unit. Because they knew...from actions, not words...that their NCO put their welfare first, so NCO's must be shown respect. They made my job easy...all I had to do was set a standard...they would work until they set a better one. I knew then they put up with lots of crap and put in extra effort, just like I had for my NCO's, for the simple reason of wanting to never disappoint me. I think they realized too that I pushed them real hard so that if anything ever happened to me they would still be okay; still be a team; still have each other...just like the day I realized one freezing morning so many miles away that my own sergeant was tempering me to take his place. Those kids had their own stripes by the time I had rockers under mine. They were seasoned leaders by the time this war got thrown onto us...and they learned the greatest lesson of leadership from the get-go, just like I did, by example: loyalty.

Anyway...I think it's crazy that an 18 year old can get married (a thing that can screw up your life for many years if it goes wrong!) but can't drink a beer.

[stash247]

Delta, enjoyed reading the post!
I'd been home, after the third tour, RVN, before I knew I was one of only two NCO's, in the conflict, to wear a 1-0 callsign, fancy that!
Butt, the point is, my guys. They were supported, from the very highest levels, because my boss, and I, would accept no less; we 'worked ' in thr highlands, Cambodia, Laos, and got no support except that which we demanded, which was very little.
When we rotated home, there were problems, these kids worked hard, and played hard; the post (Bragg) Legal Officer was busy every night, bringing my kids back to post, from the Fayettevill jail, but he did so, with boring regularity, much to his credit!
Yes, they who lay their lives on the line, every day, deserve some 'extra credit'! That's my view, anyhow!

[Tom Militano]

I spent four years in the USMC and sixteen in the US Army and I feel if your old enough to get shot at your damn sure old enough to own a gun at 18.

[RMT]

If you're old enough to serve in the military I think you are certainly old enough to own firearms. No question.

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by stash247

Delta, enjoyed reading the post!
I'd been home, after the third tour, RVN, before I knew I was one of only two NCO's, in the conflict, to wear a 1-0 callsign, fancy that!
Butt, the point is, my guys. They were supported, from the very highest levels, because my boss, and I, would accept no less; we 'worked ' in thr highlands, Cambodia, Laos, and got no support except that which we demanded, which was very little.
When we rotated home, there were problems, these kids worked hard, and played hard; the post (Bragg) Legal Officer was busy every night, bringing my kids back to post, from the Fayettevill jail, but he did so, with boring regularity, much to his credit!
Yes, they who lay their lives on the line, every day, deserve some 'extra credit'! That's my view, anyhow!

Yeah we still call downtown there "Fayett-Nam" lol

Some things never change much

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by Tom Militano

I spent four years in the USMC and sixteen in the US Army and I feel if your old enough to get shot at your damn sure old enough to own a gun at 18.

It's no doubt that an 18 yr old with basic training in any of the 5 branches is more qualified to own any weapon than your average 21 yr old that's never been in the military (thus probably no formal training).

[stash247]

Tom, Delta, we're certainly on the same page!
A good friend of mine was a 'career reservist' for 37 years, because a 'stoploss' clause wiuld not allow hin to retire. He's certainly old enough to drink, should he choose, but get this; he was directed to surrender a 'Swiss army Knife, the biggest blade being about 2", before entering the terminal; it was OK that he carried an M-9 Beretta, with two extra 15 rd mags, but the knife was an 'issue'!
He's a senior NCO, then, 35 years, on the job, a flight engineer on a C-5, which will not get off the ground, unless he signs off, on condition, and the Air Force is concerned about a 2" knife, but not the pistol!
Go figger!
My position is simple; any young man, or woman, old enough to go and die for their country, is old enough to do or own any damned thing they wish!
By their committment, they have earned the right; to 'preserve, protect, and defend' rights denied them, out of age, alone, is an absurdity!

[noslolo]

Having lived in the peoples republic of Maryland for 18 years I feel your pain. That pain, only went away when I moved to PA. How is it that the Goverment can require you to carry one on the job, but not allow you to have one at home. I guess it is all right if you defend the entire country with a gun, but God help you if you want to defend yourself or your family.

[Lilly]

Originally Posted by Tom Militano

I spent four years in the USMC and sixteen in the US Army and I feel if your old enough to get shot at your damn sure old enough to own a gun at 18.

My thoughts EXACTLY!!
Lilly