1860 Colt Army pistol - The Firearms Forum

Gibby2 · 03-24-2003, 08:56 PM

What should I do, I have recently found what appears to be an 1860 Colt Army Pistol that looks to be in excellent condition. How should it be stored? Should I lightly oil the gun? WHat are the initials on the handle, Are they for the owner or Colt himself?

Any insight or advise would be greatly appreciated.

03-24-2003, 10:01 PM

need more info

It could be a reproduction or it could be a real Colt.

Can you tell us all the markings on the gun? Is the frame brass or steel?

Xracer · 03-25-2003, 09:17 AM

Hi Gibby2.....welcome to TFF.

First, let's determine if the gun is an original or reproduction.

To do that, we'll need ALL of the writing on the gun.

And...we'll need a better description of it's condition...% of bluing left, any dings or dents, condition of the bore, etc.

If you can post some pictures, it would be helpful.

In the meantime, you can clean the bore and cylinder chambers with a bore brush and a good bore cleaner....run some patches thru to dry it out, and oil lightly with a quality gun oil.

Wipe off the outside of the gun with a clean, dry rag, and oil lightly and store in a dry place.

Gibby2 · 03-30-2003, 03:53 PM

Thanks for responding, here are some pics of the handgun.

Xracer · 03-31-2003, 07:20 AM

Where are the pictures?

Also, can you give us all of the writing and markings on the gun?

Gibby2 · 03-31-2003, 11:00 AM

Xracer, Thanks for replying

111215 is on the bottom of the barrel and the steel part of the trigger and the brass part has 52665 in front of the trigger, it has an H behind the trigger, 111215 stamped on the steel at bottom of the grip.

Looks like Patent #: 1215 Pat Sept 10th 1855 on the chamber (name for part?)

Along the top of the barrel, Address Col Sam l Colt New York US America. Not sure of the middle initial could be a small L or E.

There are two G's on the safety screw side of the barrel same side just above the trigger it says Colts Patent.

There are 3 initials on the wooden part of the handle, it looks as though they are WBR or WBK.

How do I attach pictures? I tried yesterday and would really like to show you this handgun.

Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it.

Admin · 03-31-2003, 11:22 AM

If your pictures are stored in a file in your computer, then
just click on the "Browse" button below the text box when
you reply.

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then just click on the "IMG" button above the text box area,
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Tac

03-31-2003, 11:28 AM

Here are detailed instructions on how to post pictures on TFF.

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/show...&threadid=5895

If you still can't get them to post you can email them to me or contact me by private message and I will walk yuou through it.

Gibby2 · 03-31-2003, 04:12 PM

Pictures

Xracer · 03-31-2003, 04:23 PM

OK, Gibby....this is starting to get interesting!

The serial # and markings seem to check, but the trigger guard doesn't match the rest of the gun.

Sounds like this just might be a genuine Model 1860 Army with a mis-matched trigger guard.

Is there a roll engraving on the cylinder, or perchance, is the cylinder fluted?

Can you post pictures showing the entire gun, from the right and left sides?

Can you give us the general condition of the revolver....is there any finish on it. Any pits, dings, dents, rust, etc. To a large extent, value will depend on condition.

Sorry to be playing 20 questions, but there are a bunch of reproductions & fakes out there.

BTW...the WBK on the handle would be the military inspector's mark.....and...the "l" is not a middle initial, it's "Saml. Colt" short for Samuel Colt.

astute observer · 03-31-2003, 05:10 PM

It looks to be the genuine article, and I have one here to compare it with. Apparently the trigger guard was damaged at some point and was replaced, not a big deal....and only slightly detrimental to value. It would be nice to see an overall photo of this revolver

Gibby2 · 03-31-2003, 05:11 PM

From some of the other pictures I have seen they all have a brass triger gaurd?

Sounds like this just might be a genuine Model 1860 Army with a mis-matched trigger guard.

Is there a roll engraving on the cylinder, or perchance, is the cylinder fluted? *** Not sure what you mean?

Can you post pictures showing the entire gun, from the right and left sides? *** Trying

Can you give us the general condition of the revolver....is there any finish on it. Any pits, dings, dents, rust, etc. To a large extent, value will depend on condition. *** Some slight rust on the barrel minor pits, very small chip out of the front of the wooden part of the handle.

Sorry to be playing 20 questions, but there are a bunch of reproductions & fakes out there. *** fun to learn, I appreciate the input

BTW...the WBK on the handle would be the military inspector's mark.....and...the "l" is not a middle initial, it's "Saml. Colt" short for Samuel Colt. *** Thanks for the clarification.

Xracer · 04-01-2003, 10:29 AM

This is getting to be fun, Gibby!

"From some of the other pictures I have seen they all have a brass triger gaurd?"

Yup, they all had a brass Trigger guard. The frame numbers and the number on the trigger guard should match....apparently your trigger guard was replaced at one time or another. No big deal. As AO says, lowers the value just a little.

"Is there a roll engraving on the cylinder, or perchance, is the cylinder fluted? *** Not sure what you mean?"

Most of the 1860's had a round cylinder with a roll engraving of a naval battle scene. Your engraving may have worn off.....that's pretty normal.

A few....about 4,000 of the 200,500 made had fluted cylinders (and they're worth a bit more), but those were in the first 8,000 serial numbers, so yours wouldn't be in that Serial # range.

Sounds like you've got a nice Civil War souvenir there.....sure love to see some pix of it.

Gibby2 · 04-01-2003, 09:51 PM

Last attempt.....................

Gibby2 · 04-01-2003, 09:53 PM

Still large but at least you can see more of the gun.......

Gibby2 · 04-01-2003, 09:54 PM

Another...........

Gibby2 · 04-01-2003, 09:55 PM

Thanks for being patient while I figured this out......

astute observer · 04-01-2003, 10:44 PM

Pretty nice original 1860 Army Colt! The condition appears to be about average. A significant Civil War revolver, and among the nicest "feeling" handguns of all time (in my hand at least).

CountryGunsmith · 04-02-2003, 05:50 AM

Thanks for the pictures.

A little more specific information on that particular pistol. The gun itself was manufactured c.1863. An enormous amount of Model 1860 revolvers (over 200,000) were produced in its 13-yr run, with 1862-63 being the two heaviest years by far - for obvious reasons.

Although you would need to measure, it appears to be the standard 1860 Army with 8" barrel. If you look at the rear of the grip strap, you should see that it has a mortise for attaching a shoulder stock. Of course, it is .44 caliber with a 6-shot cylinder.

You have already identified many of the markings, but if you look closely you will see some others:

- ADDRESS COL. SAML COLT NEW-YORK U.S.AMERICA -

on the top of the barrel, as you noted. The 'L' in SAML is smaller than the rest and is underscored, an abbreviation for 'Samuel.'

COLTS
PATENT
U.S.

should be on the left side of the frame, toward the muzzle

44 CAL

on the left side of the triggerguard strap. This may well be worn completely away.

What you are seeing on the cylinder is the last four digits of the serial number within a cartouche, followed by PAT SEPT 10th 1850. The cylinder would have originally been roll-stamped with what is called the Naval Engagement scene. (Side note: the TEXAS Navy!) Pretty common for that to be worn away. You should also see the last few digits of the serial number on other major parts, although dont be too concerned if the numbers differ (more on that in a moment).

The marking on the grips is actually WHR for William H. Roberts, a government inspector for the 1860 Army revolvers.

Originally, the gun would have had the 'military' finish which was a somewhat dull blue, brass triggerguard, and case-hardened frame, hammer and loading lever. The walnut grips had an oil finish. It was originally sold with an accompanying bullet mould and combination screwdriver/nipple wrench. These accessories add considerably to the overall value, if present.

A great many of the 1860 Army revolvers were arsenal-refurbished after the Civil War. Typically, there was no impetus to make sure that gripstraps, wedges, etc, matched after refurbishment hence the mismatched triggerguard on your revolver. I would agree that this has minimal (if any) impact on the value or desirability of this piece.

It should be noted that the 1860 Army was such a successful revolver that it remained in service until supplanted by another Colt design - the 1873 Single Action Army.

Initial retail price lists from Colt in 1861 list that revolver for $25, with the shoulder stock an $8 option. Realistic market value today for your revolver in that condition would be $1000-$1250. I would counsel insuring for $1750-$2000 to allow for inflation.

Congratulations on your acquisition, and thanks for sharing this wonderful old Colt.

Gibby2 · 04-02-2003, 05:37 PM

Thanks to all for the information! I really appreciate the clarifications, and details about the 1860 Army Revolver.

The gun was found in my inlaws attic, we were cleaning it out and found it laying under some old papers. I belive that my wives grandfather owned the gun as past of his costumes, for he owned a costume store and has some old uniforms, bags of buttons, helmets etc. floating around the attic. The hard part for me is to try to find the right people to talk with to investigate real or reproduction, just as you fine gentleman have helped me with the revolver. Thanks again, I really appreciate the information.

astute observer · 04-02-2003, 06:07 PM

Gibby,
Ge careful not to be hasty in throwing ANYTHING away! If there are any genuine Civil War uniforms or parts thereof in amongst all of that accumulation, they are quite valuable. Uniforms are among the most desirable of Civil War relics and can bring more than most Civil War weapons.

Gibby2 · 04-02-2003, 09:59 PM

AO, Thanks for the feedback. Any recomendations as to where I can go to find out what to look for?

03-24-2003, 08:56 PM	#1
Gibby2 Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11	1860 Colt Army pistol What should I do, I have recently found what appears to be an 1860 Colt Army Pistol that looks to be in excellent condition. How should it be stored? Should I lightly oil the gun? WHat are the initials on the handle, Are they for the owner or Colt himself? Any insight or advise would be greatly appreciated. -->

03-31-2003, 04:12 PM	#9
Gibby2 Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11	Pictures Attached Images

03-31-2003, 05:10 PM	#11
astute observer Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 46	1860 Army Colt It looks to be the genuine article, and I have one here to compare it with. Apparently the trigger guard was damaged at some point and was replaced, not a big deal....and only slightly detrimental to value. It would be nice to see an overall photo of this revolver

03-31-2003, 05:11 PM	#12
Gibby2 Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11	More information From some of the other pictures I have seen they all have a brass triger gaurd? Sounds like this just might be a genuine Model 1860 Army with a mis-matched trigger guard. Is there a roll engraving on the cylinder, or perchance, is the cylinder fluted? * Not sure what you mean? Can you post pictures showing the entire gun, from the right and left sides? * Trying Can you give us the general condition of the revolver....is there any finish on it. Any pits, dings, dents, rust, etc. To a large extent, value will depend on condition. * Some slight rust on the barrel minor pits, very small chip out of the front of the wooden part of the handle. Sorry to be playing 20 questions, but there are a bunch of reproductions & fakes out there. * fun to learn, I appreciate the input BTW...the WBK on the handle would be the military inspector's mark.....and...the "l" is not a middle initial, it's "Saml. Colt" short for Samuel Colt. *** Thanks for the clarification.

04-01-2003, 09:51 PM	#14
Gibby2 Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11	Pictures Last attempt..................... Attached Images

03-24-2003, 10:01 PM	#2
warpig Adnanced Senior Member Posts: n/a	need more info It could be a reproduction or it could be a real Colt. Can you tell us all the markings on the gun? Is the frame brass or steel?

03-25-2003, 09:17 AM	#3
Xracer TFF Admin Staff Mediator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet! Posts: 9,144	Hi Gibby2.....welcome to TFF. First, let's determine if the gun is an original or reproduction. To do that, we'll need ALL of the writing on the gun. And...we'll need a better description of it's condition...% of bluing left, any dings or dents, condition of the bore, etc. If you can post some pictures, it would be helpful. In the meantime, you can clean the bore and cylinder chambers with a bore brush and a good bore cleaner....run some patches thru to dry it out, and oil lightly with a quality gun oil. Wipe off the outside of the gun with a clean, dry rag, and oil lightly and store in a dry place.

03-30-2003, 03:53 PM	#4
Gibby2 Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11	Thanks for responding, here are some pics of the handgun.

03-31-2003, 07:20 AM	#5
Xracer TFF Admin Staff Mediator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet! Posts: 9,144	Where are the pictures? Also, can you give us all of the writing and markings on the gun?

03-31-2003, 11:00 AM	#6
Gibby2 Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11	Xracer, Thanks for replying 111215 is on the bottom of the barrel and the steel part of the trigger and the brass part has 52665 in front of the trigger, it has an H behind the trigger, 111215 stamped on the steel at bottom of the grip. Looks like Patent #: 1215 Pat Sept 10th 1855 on the chamber (name for part?) Along the top of the barrel, Address Col Sam l Colt New York US America. Not sure of the middle initial could be a small L or E. There are two G's on the safety screw side of the barrel same side just above the trigger it says Colts Patent. There are 3 initials on the wooden part of the handle, it looks as though they are WBR or WBK. How do I attach pictures? I tried yesterday and would really like to show you this handgun. Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it.

03-31-2003, 11:22 AM	#7
Admin Site Network Webmaster Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Site Control Panel Posts: 11,654	If your pictures are stored in a file in your computer, then just click on the "Browse" button below the text box when you reply. If your pictures are stored at a picture host site or elsewhere, then just click on the "IMG" button above the text box area, and place the link to your pictures in it and press the "OK" button, then click on "Submit Reply" as usual. Tac

03-31-2003, 11:28 AM	#8
warpig Adnanced Senior Member Posts: n/a	Here are detailed instructions on how to post pictures on TFF. http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/show...&threadid=5895 If you still can't get them to post you can email them to me or contact me by private message and I will walk yuou through it.

03-31-2003, 04:23 PM	#10
Xracer TFF Admin Staff Mediator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet! Posts: 9,144	OK, Gibby....this is starting to get interesting! The serial # and markings seem to check, but the trigger guard doesn't match the rest of the gun. Sounds like this just might be a genuine Model 1860 Army with a mis-matched trigger guard. Is there a roll engraving on the cylinder, or perchance, is the cylinder fluted? Can you post pictures showing the entire gun, from the right and left sides? Can you give us the general condition of the revolver....is there any finish on it. Any pits, dings, dents, rust, etc. To a large extent, value will depend on condition. Sorry to be playing 20 questions, but there are a bunch of reproductions & fakes out there. BTW...the WBK on the handle would be the military inspector's mark.....and...the "l" is not a middle initial, it's "Saml. Colt" short for Samuel Colt.

04-01-2003, 10:29 AM	#13
Xracer TFF Admin Staff Mediator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet! Posts: 9,144	This is getting to be fun, Gibby! "From some of the other pictures I have seen they all have a brass triger gaurd?" Yup, they all had a brass Trigger guard. The frame numbers and the number on the trigger guard should match....apparently your trigger guard was replaced at one time or another. No big deal. As AO says, lowers the value just a little. "Is there a roll engraving on the cylinder, or perchance, is the cylinder fluted? *** Not sure what you mean?" Most of the 1860's had a round cylinder with a roll engraving of a naval battle scene. Your engraving may have worn off.....that's pretty normal. A few....about 4,000 of the 200,500 made had fluted cylinders (and they're worth a bit more), but those were in the first 8,000 serial numbers, so yours wouldn't be in that Serial # range. Sounds like you've got a nice Civil War souvenir there.....sure love to see some pix of it.

04-01-2003, 09:53 PM	#15
Gibby2 Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11	more Still large but at least you can see more of the gun....... Attached Images

04-01-2003, 09:54 PM	#16
Gibby2 Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11	another Another........... Attached Images

04-01-2003, 09:55 PM	#17
Gibby2 Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11	Last one Thanks for being patient while I figured this out...... Attached Images

04-01-2003, 10:44 PM	#18
astute observer Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 46	!860 Army Colt Pretty nice original 1860 Army Colt! The condition appears to be about average. A significant Civil War revolver, and among the nicest "feeling" handguns of all time (in my hand at least).

04-02-2003, 05:50 AM	#19
CountryGunsmith Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Deep Piney Woods of East Texas Posts: 5,116	Thanks for the pictures. A little more specific information on that particular pistol. The gun itself was manufactured c.1863. An enormous amount of Model 1860 revolvers (over 200,000) were produced in its 13-yr run, with 1862-63 being the two heaviest years by far - for obvious reasons. Although you would need to measure, it appears to be the standard 1860 Army with 8" barrel. If you look at the rear of the grip strap, you should see that it has a mortise for attaching a shoulder stock. Of course, it is .44 caliber with a 6-shot cylinder. You have already identified many of the markings, but if you look closely you will see some others: - ADDRESS COL. SAML COLT NEW-YORK U.S.AMERICA - on the top of the barrel, as you noted. The 'L' in SAML is smaller than the rest and is underscored, an abbreviation for 'Samuel.' COLTS PATENT U.S. should be on the left side of the frame, toward the muzzle 44 CAL on the left side of the triggerguard strap. This may well be worn completely away. What you are seeing on the cylinder is the last four digits of the serial number within a cartouche, followed by PAT SEPT 10th 1850. The cylinder would have originally been roll-stamped with what is called the Naval Engagement scene. (Side note: the TEXAS Navy!) Pretty common for that to be worn away. You should also see the last few digits of the serial number on other major parts, although dont be too concerned if the numbers differ (more on that in a moment). The marking on the grips is actually WHR for William H. Roberts, a government inspector for the 1860 Army revolvers. Originally, the gun would have had the 'military' finish which was a somewhat dull blue, brass triggerguard, and case-hardened frame, hammer and loading lever. The walnut grips had an oil finish. It was originally sold with an accompanying bullet mould and combination screwdriver/nipple wrench. These accessories add considerably to the overall value, if present. A great many of the 1860 Army revolvers were arsenal-refurbished after the Civil War. Typically, there was no impetus to make sure that gripstraps, wedges, etc, matched after refurbishment hence the mismatched triggerguard on your revolver. I would agree that this has minimal (if any) impact on the value or desirability of this piece. It should be noted that the 1860 Army was such a successful revolver that it remained in service until supplanted by another Colt design - the 1873 Single Action Army. Initial retail price lists from Colt in 1861 list that revolver for $25, with the shoulder stock an $8 option. Realistic market value today for your revolver in that condition would be $1000-$1250. I would counsel insuring for $1750-$2000 to allow for inflation. Congratulations on your acquisition, and thanks for sharing this wonderful old Colt. __________________ The autonomic nervous system provides for involuntary muscle function - the work of breathing, digestion, and so forth. On some folks, that's a pure waste of ingenuity.

04-02-2003, 05:37 PM	#20
Gibby2 Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11	Information Thanks to all for the information! I really appreciate the clarifications, and details about the 1860 Army Revolver. The gun was found in my inlaws attic, we were cleaning it out and found it laying under some old papers. I belive that my wives grandfather owned the gun as past of his costumes, for he owned a costume store and has some old uniforms, bags of buttons, helmets etc. floating around the attic. The hard part for me is to try to find the right people to talk with to investigate real or reproduction, just as you fine gentleman have helped me with the revolver. Thanks again, I really appreciate the information.

04-02-2003, 06:07 PM	#21
astute observer Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 46	Be careful... Gibby, Ge careful not to be hasty in throwing ANYTHING away! If there are any genuine Civil War uniforms or parts thereof in amongst all of that accumulation, they are quite valuable. Uniforms are among the most desirable of Civil War relics and can bring more than most Civil War weapons.

04-02-2003, 09:59 PM	#22
Gibby2 Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11	Additional info AO, Thanks for the feedback. Any recomendations as to where I can go to find out what to look for?