Accidental Discharges

[45nut]

My question is; how common are they and is it the "familiarity that breeds contempt", momentarily forgetting the 10 Commandments, or a large dose of dumda$$?

I knew a police officer who said, the more you handle firearms the more your chances increase that you will pop an unintentional cap.

What say you? I'm not looking for confessions here, just wondering if anyone you know has done it or any theories for the occurrence.

[Nighthawk]

Originally Posted by 45nut

I knew a police officer who said, the more you handle firearms the more your chances increase that you will pop an unintentional cap.

I disagree the accidents I've had was with firearm I was unfamiliar with. Trigger much lighter than I was used to. I have seen some close calls. Accidental discharges are die to either momentary stupidity or total stupidity.

I think for most people the more familiar you are with firearm the less likely for accident, but there are some that shouldn't be allowed to come close to firearms.
I just remembered I have had one true accidental discharge with an old drop block 22. when I raise block up hammer dropped and fired. Was aiming down range. So for, all I've had (and hope no more) were aimed in proper direction.

[Gabob]

There are two kinds of shooters: Those who have had an AD and those who will.
I had a .22 K Hornet fire when I closed the bolt a couple of years ago but luckily the rifle was pointed in the vicinity of a prairie dog.
Saw an M1 Garand fire while on a sandbag rest with no one holding it( It was a hangfire)

Just keep those muzzles pointed in a safe direction at all times

[AngelDeville]

I disagree, every time I pick up my 1911, I clear it, even if I just did it 2 minutes before...

Although just this Monday at the range (Thanks Veterans for the day off),
I picked up a friends Para 1911 for the first time, and as I was bringing the pistol up to target a touch of the trigger fired it.

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by 45nut

I knew a police officer who said, the more you handle firearms the more your chances increase that you will pop an unintentional cap.

Well, yeah... I mean if you pick up a gun one time in your life and put it down, swearing to never touch them again, well...Your chances are slim to none that you will ever have an AD.

Originally Posted by Gabob

There are two kinds of shooters: Those who have had an AD and those who will.

Wholeheartedly disagree! I've been messing with guns all my life and have never had a AD, furthermore, I know many more who haven't...In fact I'd side with anyone saying that those people who have had one are in the minority.

I don't consider myself a "safety nut", but I refuse to be careless...It's not just my life were talking about if it goes off without warning.

Crpdeth

[delta13soultaker]

I have seen countless negligent discharges from recruits...sometimes several daily...those are usually due to very poor weapon handling (i.e. fingers on triggers when they shouldn't be). Normally happens under stress...the cure is lots of training so that motor muscle memory is working when the conscious thought is hindered by too much sensory overload. In other words...if you are not redundantly trained in weapon handling you probably will have AD/ND's in a bad situation. The only way to prepare for such things is to do it...under stress...a lot...talking/reading about it is useless.

Then there is complacency. Sometimes too much familiarity with a weapon causes motor muscle memory to engage before the person stops to think. (I once watched 3 officers in a row!!! fire their weapons accidentaly into clearing barrels because they were soooo used to clearing unloaded M16's, that when they were loaded they forgot to drop the magazines before they inspected the chambers....ofcourse when they released the bolts, they loaded a round, so when they pulled the trigger....)

Weapon skills are perishable skills. Mechanical safeties are prone to fail (I have recently seen an M16 that fired when the selector was totated into Safe)

The only way to avoid AD/ND's with some certainty is constant, good practice.

[Gabob]

I consider myself a safety nut but I have had several over a period of sixty years, Two were with 1911 autos. One broke a sear spring and discharged the other was a brand new Gold Cup with a defectively ground sear that went full auto. I mentioned the hangfire in Garand and the Hornet that fired when bolt was closed. Also had a quail hunting buddy have a 12 gauge fire when he bumped the stock. In all the cases the muzzles were pointed downrange or away from anyone . All of these happened to experienced, safe shooters two of whom shot on military teams. I just think if you shoot enough it WILL happen to the safest of us.
If you have never had an AD then be extra careful because it CAN happen thru weapon malfunction or some cause beyond your control

[358 winchester]

AD's can happen to any one! firearms are machines and machines break or malfunction at times. The danger lies in how careless the person using the machine is. If the barrel is pointed "down range" then we are safer then if it is pointed at our shooting partner. If I don't look when approaching the intersection and some drivers breaks fail then I can't avoid the accident either. AD's happen just be safe at all times

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by 358 winchester

AD's can happen to any one! firearms are machines and machines break or malfunction at times. The danger lies in how careless the person using the machine is. If the barrel is pointed "down range" then we are safer then if it is pointed at our shooting partner. If I don't look when approaching the intersection and some drivers breaks fail then I can't avoid the accident either. AD's happen just be safe at all times

An excellent point, Ron. Neither machines nor humans are ever fail-safe. When I teach others to shoot, the most important and simplest rule I teach, drummed in over and over, and over again until they get sick of hearing it, is . . . "never let the bore of your weapon, at any time, pass over anything that would be harmed by shooting it unless it is your intention to shoot it." If that simple rule is followed, even an AD will cause nothing but possibly some embarrassment for the shooter. Embarrassment is easily survivable and a learning experience; a bullet in someone's head usually is not!

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by Gabob

I consider myself a safety nut but I have had several over a period of sixty years, Two were with 1911 autos. One broke a sear spring and discharged the other was a brand new Gold Cup with a defectively ground sear that went full auto. I mentioned the hangfire in Garand and the Hornet that fired when bolt was closed. Also had a quail hunting buddy have a 12 gauge fire when he bumped the stock. In all the cases the muzzles were pointed downrange or away from anyone . All of these happened to experienced, safe shooters two of whom shot on military teams. I just think if you shoot enough it WILL happen to the safest of us.
If you have never had an AD then be extra careful because it CAN happen thru weapon malfunction or some cause beyond your control

Well, after re-reading my post I sounded a little rough, I'll say one thing, you got 25 years on me so I have plenty of time to eat my words, and after a little thought, your AD experiences were all but unavoidable... One could be as much of a safety fiend as he likes and never stop an AD due to a broken seer spring.

All said, I know enough guys who hunt/shoot regularly, who have never had an accident, that their years would total those of Methuselah, so I have good hope that I never will either.

I saw one though...Geeze man, it's a good thing we are safety conscious on the skeet field, this new guy shows up and he is cool as he can be really, just an old country boy, a real "bubbly" guy who talked and laughed a lot, with his shells stuffed into his jeans pockets.

Anyway, I think it's a little bit like Delta was saying, he was under just a tiny bit of pressure because he had never shot "real skeet" before, complete with a range officer and all those rules... All those rules are the only reason his barrel was pointed away from us when he planted a 1oz load in the dirt, right in front of his feet while he was getting into position to call for a bird.

Talk about everyone getting quiet for a minute or so...


Crpdeth

[Indian Creek 1]

I've had an SKS go slamfire full auto on me but it was pointed down range. Then again My wife has an uncle whom when he picks up a gun (any kind ) everyone starts ducking behind anything they can for protection. Needless to say I won't hunt with him. I want to try to live another 72 years.

A.J.

[LurpyGeek]

Originally Posted by Indian Creek 1

I've had an SKS go slamfire full auto on me but it was pointed down range.

I borrowed my brothers SKS and went shooting on a family outing this past summer. Most there were inexperienced as far as firearms go, and some had never shot. I actually probably only shot three rounds myself, but was mostly the coach / loader / rangemaster the rest of the time, and had a blast doing it.

I had heard of the rare tendency of the SKS to stick a firing pin and slamfire full auto. This concerned me mostly because there would be people shooting who weren't accustomed to recoil of any kind. I didn't want the weapon to get away from them if this were to happen, so inexperienced shooters only got two rounds in the magazine.

Luckily we were all safe and had a great time. Most people say the SKS will function no matter how gunked up it is, but I do my best to keep it as clean as I can anytime I'm going to be shooting it.

I have had one negligent dischage (not accidental, just stupid), but it was only a .22 LR and was pointed down range. I was pretty unhappy with myself for the rest of the day though.

[Bruce FLinch]

When I teach our Action Pistol Orientation, I tell the Students "there are 2 kinds of Shooters, those that will DQ & those that have. Only seen one AD & that was an "experienced" loud mouth expert.

At the local Home Depot today, I saw a sign someone had copied & hung up.
" Machine is not equipped with a Brain. Please use your own" I liked that sign!

[Tom Militano]

I shot with a lot of Army teams, I'm 66 and have been using firearms since I was 12 years old and have never had a AD. Call it luck if you want or just being extra careful, but I intend to do my best to keep the streak intact.

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by Tom Militano

Call it luck if you want...

Nope Tom, I think, like I said, you are in the majority of firearm owners.

Now..

I know we've all seen this, but while were on the subject...We've GOT to see this again! I'm the only one in this room PROFESSIONAL enough...

LOL, it's not funny, but to be a braggart then shoot yourself and have it posted for thousands of ppl to see...Thats funny.


Crpdeth

[358 winchester]

First time I have seen that one ROFLMAO

[travihanson]

He should have had his badge stripped on the damn spot. Moron....me too 358...

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by travihanson

He should have had his badge stripped on the damn spot. Moron

In a room full of babies like that, I agree! The person who cleared his weapon for him needed a few months off to think about things as well, but all told, my opinion is that YOU are responsible for the safety of your weapon, not someone else.

I gotta say I like how he kept his composure after being shot...That part blows my mind.

Crpdeth

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by Crpdeth

Well, after re-reading my post I sounded a little rough, I'll say one thing, you got 25 years on me so I have plenty of time to eat my words, and after a little thought, your AD experiences were all but unavoidable... One could be as much of a safety fiend as he likes and never stop an AD due to a broken seer spring.

All said, I know enough guys who hunt/shoot regularly, who have never had an accident, that their years would total those of Methuselah, so I have good hope that I never will either.

I saw one though...Geeze man, it's a good thing we are safety conscious on the skeet field, this new guy shows up and he is cool as he can be really, just an old country boy, a real "bubbly" guy who talked and laughed a lot, with his shells stuffed into his jeans pockets.

Anyway, I think it's a little bit like Delta was saying, he was under just a tiny bit of pressure because he had never shot "real skeet" before, complete with a range officer and all those rules... All those rules are the only reason his barrel was pointed away from us when he planted a 1oz load in the dirt, right in front of his feet while he was getting into position to call for a bird.

Talk about everyone getting quiet for a minute or so...


Crpdeth

Yeah that stress thing...stress is the great equalizer. Even a little can effect someone a lot.

One time back in about 2000, I was training in Eastern Europe and we were using a shooting house/"live bay" on a former Soviet range. The start point of the lane was a deep ditch about 20 meters from the wall (simulated a nice concealed route and a good near hide position with good cover for a support by fire element and local security too, so it was a logical start line.) Well, the observer-control (OC) told us to lock 'n load. It was a simple battle drill...a fast urban breach under heavy overwatch, room clearing, establish 360 security,search the dead, evac wounded, then set up far-side security until mission index in under seven minutes. A bunch of people from a few different militaries were watching and waiting, we were almost last for the day fire portion.

And Booom! The concusion rung my ears through my earplugs. The NCO beside me vanished in a black cloud of wet dirt. He bolted straight up and fell against the ditch bank, then dropped to a crazy crouch. For about 3 seconds I totally thought a flash-bang grenade went off behind me on someone's vest or one accidently fell in the ditch somehow. After that 3 seconds my training took over and I started checking my guys (the number 2 man was already checking the NCO who bolted). When I looked at the number 5 man I instantly knew what happened.

He had an M249. When he had been doing functions checks all day he was doing the typical ride the bolt forwards thing etc etc. Add performance stress. So when we went hot...well he wasn't thinking about the weapon...muscle memory caused him to ride the bolt closed...but this time there was a belt in the feedtray. When an open-bolt firing weapon has the bolt closed it fires as soon as it locks. If rounds are on the tray...in this situation it equals a negligent discharge...right behind the next odd # man in the stack kneeling in a ditch.

In my occupation there is no such thing as "accidental". It is written up as negligence...no excuses...the seniors handled him later the formal way. Meantime, we had two shaken up troopers and a very deep hole in a Russian ditch...so we regrouped, thumbs up, heads down, and executed our piece in okay time to standard and killed the plywood horde in the live bay etc etc. But we immedietaly implimented some new training procedures for machineguns. The one grace that saved us: muzzles always down at extreme-low-ready.

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by Crpdeth

I gotta say I like how he kept his composure after being shot...That part blows my mind.

Crpdeth

Adrenaline

[travihanson]

Had to be something....I can't believe they whipped out another firearm to show after a stunt like that. That video just really pissed me off. There is so many things that he did wrong...If your going to clear a firearm shouldn't you have the magazine out?? Not only that but what Crp said, don't ever have someone else clear your weapon...If they are going to double check you...You triple check them. I myself had an negligent discharge and a round went into my bed. I didn't pull back the slide of my 1911 type 9mm. I think someone was playing with it because when I went to take it out of the closet the hammer was cocked back....I found it odd but not impossible. First thing I should have done was check to see if the weapon was cleared....But I didn't and I went to put the hammer down. Well my finger slipped off the hammer while I still had the trigger pressed and BANG. I had one hole in the top of my mattress, not a blemish on the floor, two entrances back into the mattress, a hurt thumb, and a pissed off wife. I didn't touch a firearm for about a month. I was very disappointed in myself. All I can hope for is that I don't have a stupid moment like that ever again, because if there is a next time I or someone around me might not be so lucky. I have changed a lot of ways that I do things since that moment. Though someone had to have been messing with my gun (because when stored while loaded it is clip in, chamber empty) I am the only one to blame...

[polishshooter]

We did this a few years ago in the form of a poll, and it was enlightening.

We had our share of the "Never Had's," and our share of "Holier than thous" who claimed only dumbbutts and klutzes had them, but for the most part about 75-80% of respondents if I remember right "confessed" to having had at least one...sorry CRP, but no worry, when (not IF) you have yours, I will still like you! (as long as nobody is HURT, of course....)

I have had my share, and totally agree with Gabob, in fact I think I said the same thing then, if you are a shooter, you either HAVE or WILL...

This is a GREAT time for this topic too, tomorrow is Opening Day in Indiana, and at about 6:55am tomorrow morning when it is forecast to be around freezing, I will AGAIN be lowering the hammer to half cock after having loaded a slug in the chamber of my '97 Winchester with either gloves on, or with already half frozen bare fingers....








So far, since 1994, that I have been using the '97 for deer, only TWICE has it gone bang into the ground when I did it....

The first time was when My son was about 10 and loading up on the other side of the truck, I got to turn it into a GREAT safety discussion on WHY we always point the muzzle in a safe direction....

The last time was only a few years ago...

But my FIRST was with my first gun I ever hunted with when I was about 15, a Savage 220 Single Shot 12 ga, I loaded it quickly one day and when I slammed it shut it fired...which is tough to do because the safety went on automatically when it was broken open... and the safety was still ON after it had fired! It took some time to figure out what happened, but the ejector was what actually recocked the firing pin as it opened, and it was worn, and OCCASIONALLY after that would not recock it, so if you closed it quickly it fired like an "open bolt" MG, with a fixed firing pin....My wife bought me another 220 Savage for Xmas about 10 years ago, that I still use quite a bit, but before I close the action NOW I'm ALWAYS checking to see if the firing pin is retracted....



But I also spent my share of time on the line as an RO....and I have to give the edge on "unsafe" behavior to experienced shooters over "rookies..." IMO the MORE experienced you are the better chance you will have one...now that is ALSO tempered by the fact that the more experienced you are the more you SHOOT, so simple math tells us statistically you have a better chance of a mechanical breakdown, if not a mental one....

I think MOST rookies unless plain stupid, (but if they are already competing then they are USUALLY past that stage) are really CONSCIOUS about not doing anything stupid, around other shooters, but it was NOT uncommon to see the "A" class shooters or the WORST, cocky LEOs , pull out their .45 and sweep the entire line while telling their buddy, "Hey, check out my new Nastoff!" I had to warn EXPERIENCED shooters a LOT more than rookies in my day, but what was WORSE, is they would then give me more "lip" about it than a rookie, and a few times I had to threaten to disqualify before they shut up....


I also knew a guy personally, a "good" LEO that had shot PPC and other competition quite a bit, a good shooter, that decided to get into IPSC, in the early 80s, entered his first match, which was a big one at the time, $50 entry, 2 hours away, on his very first DRAW on the very first 50 yd. stage, bobbled, and somehow managed to put a round through the fiberglass roof of the covered range....


CEASE FIRE! DQ!

He used to call any ADs after that "Firing a $50 round!"

That's why there are TWO "Golden Rules...."

1.) ALWAYS treat every firearm as if it is LOADED...even if you are SURE it is not.....

and...

2.) ALWAYS point it in a safe direction.


One ISN'T enough.....

[delta13soultaker]

Polish, I concur with very much of what you said. I might phrase my opinion something like...the very new and the very seasoned shooters are the most at risk of making a simple mistake out of (1: newby) unfamiliarity or (2: seasoned) complacency.

That cocky thing...yeah I played that role once and at the time I was seriously wrong. Just after a patrol and in a secured area I had unloaded/cleared an M4 on the hood of a vehicle while the weapon was pointed at another guy's back a few feet away. A senior jumped me right then, gave me a pretty good chewing loud enough that I was pretty sure my whole team heard. I cocked an attitude as much as I could without being outright disrespectful and took the stance that my weapon was perfectly serviceable and wouldn't AD/ND just because I locked the bolt back/extracted the round and dropped the mag. My chewing proceeded to get worse for being dumb.

At that time I was accustomed to very new and frequently serviced weapons. Fast forwards later awhile when I got to work with not-so-good rifles/carbines...and oh boy do I see how dumb my thought process was. I've seen M16's that AD in ways that puzzled armorers and also seen many M16's just catastrophically fail too in ways that sent pieces of the weapon in every direction.

Recently seeing a rifle that would fire every time you rotated the safety selector was pretty damn humbling too.....

If Murphy was after my tail that day I cleared that M4 on that hood...I may of shot my buddy in the back at point blank range.

[polishshooter]

And Delta? Far be it from me to claim that I was never "reminded" by another shooter about the muzzle of any firearm I may have been fiddling with...

My first reaction, also, when that happened USED to be to "lash out" ....but in reality I was more upset with MYSELF than the person who pointed out my real or perceived "Transgression..." Which is why when I was an RO and got "lip" from an "old timer" while I didn't back down, I didn't DQ RIGHT away, at least if it wasn't flagrant...

One thing I've learned as I get older though is to NOT get mad when somebody makes the "suggestion" that I might do something "safer," but to THANK them...


I think we ALL need to be that way, be mindful of OURSELVES of course, but also keep an eye on OTHERS and don't be afraid to speak up, whether they are your friends or somebody you met that day on the range....

Any "Accidental Death" with a firearm can affect ALL of us, directly or indirectly, if the right politician gets a hold of it....


On the other hand, you have to be BLUNT with the "Stupids..." I had a friend from work once that the SECOND time I hunted with him I noticed his safety on his shotgun was off and I told him, and he said " Oh I NEVER hunt with the safety on, I always want to be READY!"

While I finished that day with him, (He drove!) I always stayed behind him after that and watched his muzzle, but when we finished, and I saw him unload safely, I informed him as long as he hunted like that I would no longer be able to hunt with him. He didn't say another word the whole ride home, but then we never hunted together again after that, and the "friendship" kind of "cooled" too....

[Pat Hurley]

Whenever I feel as if I'm gonna have an accidental discharge, I just think of baseball.