I am not saying a thing. Speaks for itself. - The Firearms Forum

cycloneman · 03-03-2010, 08:49 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8547621.stm

Wednesday, 3 March 2010 South Africa black-owned farms 'failing'

In 1994 almost 90% of the land was owned by white South Africans

Some 90% of farms redistributed to South Africa 's black population from white farmers are not productive, the government has said.

Land reform minister Gugile Nkwinti warned the land might be repossessed if the farms continued to fail.

Almost 60,000 sq km (23,000 sq miles) have been redistributed under policies aimed at benefiting black people who were left impoverished by apartheid. The land was bought from white farmers who sold up voluntarily.

The BBC's Pumza Fihlani in Johannesburg says some black farmers are likely to argue that they have been struggling to get the resources and skills to develop their land. And repossessing the land would provide a whole new problem for the government, our correspondent says, as any move to return the land to its former white owners is bound to be controversial.

Sensitive issue

The government had set a target of 2014 to redistribute one-third of white-owned land back to the black majority.

But Mr Nkwinti acknowledged that the deadline would not be kept. He said the focus would now shift to helping the black farmers make their land productive.

"The farms - which were active accruing revenue for the state - were handed over to people, and more than 90% of those are not functional," he said. "They are not productive, and therefore the state loses the revenue. We cannot afford to go on like that... No country can afford that."

At the end of apartheid in 1994 almost 90% of land was owned by the white community, which made up less than 10% of the population.

Land reform is a sensitive issue in South Africa and has been brought into sharp focus by the decline of agriculture in neighbouring Zimbabwe , where many white commercial farmers have been violently evicted.

Trouble 45-70 · 03-04-2010, 11:52 AM

Maybe they need to put up Agricultural Colleges all over the Country and have agents visit farmers to help them learn the latest farm technology's that will work in S. Africa using the available resources. Extension agents can also visit the wives and teach skills they need as farm wives. The kids can go to the colleges and come out with new skills. Kind of like what worked so well in this country that the A&M colleges are still a major educational resource to the nation.

bamajoey · 03-04-2010, 01:35 PM

Or they could give them back to white farmers and return to prosperity.

Insulation Tim · 03-04-2010, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bamajoey

Or they could give them back to white farmers and return to prosperity.

AMEN !

They could also turn the country over to White Rule again and watch the nation return to prosperity and the horrid crime rate plummet.

ponycar17 · 03-04-2010, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trouble 45-70

Maybe they need to put up Agricultural Colleges all over the Country and have agents visit farmers to help them learn the latest farm technology's that will work in S. Africa using the available resources. Extension agents can also visit the wives and teach skills they need as farm wives. The kids can go to the colleges and come out with new skills. Kind of like what worked so well in this country that the A&M colleges are still a major educational resource to the nation.

That's definitely a good thing. I've benefited from our local University cooperative on our little plot of land. They provide excellent services. I went to the same school but majored in something far from agriculture.

And I think this is just further evidence that you cannot arbitrarily transfer wealth and expect prosperity. The white farmers had years of experience. Giving the land to black farmers without the same experiences (financial management, technology, etc.) is NOT going to produce prosperity over night. I think that the white farmers who sold are probably laughing all the way to the bank right now. Good intentions do not always equal good results. Government always wants to do what is perceived as the "right thing" only to get re-elected. Their constituents are often too damn stupid to realize how wrong their decisions may be. All too often, their "right thing" is the "WRONG THING" in the long run prosperity of their constituents.

Old Grump · 03-04-2010, 06:07 PM

I'm pretty sure it was Bush's fault, let me check with Obama. Whole thing happened to fast without a management training program in place and the technical know how it was doomed to failure. Haste makes waste, always.

Zimbabwe formerly Rhodesia is in the same pickle barrel but in worse shape. Proving once again rule by Communists carrying guns is a disaster happening.

hogger129 · 03-04-2010, 07:33 PM

Why were these farms re-distributed to black people?

Old Grump · 03-04-2010, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hogger129

Why were these farms re-distributed to black people?

Public Relations, legal speak for spin to get sympathy from liberals and dopes...or do I repeat myself.

Marlin T · 03-04-2010, 10:00 PM

Quote:

The land was bought from white farmers who sold up voluntarily.

OH YA, like that is what really happened, pffft.

Would YOU just give up your farm?
Thats what I thought.

Is this the Hope and Change that is coming to place near you? After all, that is what spreading the wealth really boils down to.

Maximilian II · 03-05-2010, 02:01 AM

40 acres and a mule, with a chicken in every pot.

ampaterry · 03-05-2010, 07:54 AM

Hey, isn't getting rid of the horrid Apartheid worth a little sacrifice and starvation?

cycloneman · 03-05-2010, 09:42 AM

OK OK I know i wasn't going to say anything but I love these people so much i just can't stand it. Now, if you can't feed your self in you own country much less in any other country what good are you? I dont want to hear its because of a lack of education. They have been on this planet as long as everbody else. No excuses. Look at Haiti vs their neighbors. I don't want to hear it, stop making excuses for these people.

ponycar17 · 03-05-2010, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cycloneman

...I dont want to hear its because of a lack of education. They have been on this planet as long as everbody else. No excuses. Look at Haiti vs their neighbors. I don't want to hear it, stop making excuses for these people.

Well, actually it is... Running a farm is so much more than growing stuff. Modern farms have to also run their business affairs well. Remember that these people are competing with importers just as we are in the US. It's truly a complex business these days.

Now, why don't they have that knowledge? That's up to individual interpretation.

red14 · 03-05-2010, 10:36 AM

I think it proves that change, just for the sake of change, usually doesn't work.

I think that farming is just about the hardest job on the planet, except maybe a soldier/sailor. Farmers work hard, all day. Anybody just can't do it. It takes a special person to work 18 hours EVERY DAY, to make a living.

Gun Geezer · 03-05-2010, 05:34 PM

I would guess that during the Apartheid years south african blacks were kept suppressed and undereducated to the point that they do not have the "tools" to work the farms to profitability. It will take more than redistribution of land and government give-aways to make successful farmers out of what amounted to slaves living in their own country. What's hard to understand is how democratic liberals can expect different outcomes by welfare, entitlement programs and give-aways to the poor and uneducated in this country.

cycloneman · 03-05-2010, 06:46 PM

Well I don’t see it the way others see it. I think somewhere somehow somebody saw a log on the forest floor and got the idea of the wheel. I don't believe that idea came anywhere from Africa. Just saying. Some people have the ability to make things easier for themselves with some basic engineering. For example carrying water from the stream you pee in to the camp in wooded buckets on top of your head is an example of not using your brain. But I am sure there are people who still live like this today. Why? I don't know why you would want to live this way. I wonder what made that first person strain his brain to get out of such a mess. Others seem fine with drinking in the same hole they pee in.

All I am saying is for thousands of years we have all been on this planet. Some people have decided to make rafts and boats to get around. They probably came to the conclusion to make a boat after they saw a log float in the stream where they pee. Somebody scratched their head and had an idea. Again I am going out on a limb and saying it did not happen in Africa.

Same thing goes with math; you know 1 + 1 = 2 and so forth. I don’t believe math came from Africa. So it is no surprise to me that these people in history got by very simple. No body cared to strain their brain while they were on lunch break down by the river they pee in.

I guess my point now is this. In 50 more years will Africans be able to farm on their own? Good question don't you think?

So what if farming is a hard job. Boo hoo. Your not going to tell me to cut them some slack because they haven't educated themselves are you? Or that since you have to work 18 hours a day it's just too hard for a poor black man to do. Yea you gotta check the soil for ph. Yea,,,,, you gotta disc it up. Yea,,,,,, you gotta fertilize it. You gotta know how much to use. Now someone needs to know how to work that dreaded math. Yea,,,,, you gotta buy and plant the seeds. Yea,,,,, you gotta do the rain dance to the gods of water for rain. Yea,,,,,, cause you know there is just not enough workers to carry water from the stream you pee in to the crops. Oh gee! Then if the daw gone crop actually grows you gotta get someone to pick the darn things. That's if there are no bugs that got to them. Yea it's a bitch! Here is an idea just let the white man feed you. Cause working sucks!

How long do you think it would take the African nation (with no help of course) to put a man on the moon? Go ahead I dare you to answer that one. In fact I am gona send that question to Alex Trebeck to put on Jeopardy.

It's not their fault cause they didn't have the same chances.

It's not their fault cause they didn't get an education.

It's not their fault cause the white man made them slaves.

It's not their fault cause gravity doesn't work in Africa.

It's not their fault cause they weren't given enough.

It's not their fault cause they didn't have the same god.

It's not their fault cause it's too hot in Africa

It's not their fault cause the white man outlawed math books in Africa

It's not their fault cause they dont have a Wall mart to rip off tennis shoes from.

It's not their fault cause they were put here on earth later then the rest of us.

It's not their fault causa causa causa.....

Now watermelons have to be imported to Africa from Mexico

45nut · 03-08-2010, 12:36 PM

Well Dayum cyclone, just get it out of your system. Been in LA too long??

Well, Dr Manning, who is black, asked where are all the contributions of Black Africa like great cities & civilizations, inventions, great writings, etc? They don't exist. Look at the state of affairs in every African nation being led by blacks.

The Africans are now living in slums or shanty towns. The ever popular grass hut before that while still living in hunter/gatherer societies with no appreciable change in societal structure since before Christ. Their society has changed some in the last 200 years, but as soon as some Tootsie's and Hutu's get close to one another and someone has a machete, blood will be spilled. They are eons behind in basic societal evolution.

The greatest achievements of Negro's have come in America since the abolition of slavery, present POTUS excepted.

Willie · 03-08-2010, 01:01 PM

I think it is simple. It is the "W" word again. No.......not white.....the word is WORK! And some just do not like it.

45nut · 03-09-2010, 07:35 AM

Let me clarify some because I don't want to be labeled a racist. What I'm not saying is that the black race is inferior and the white race is superior. All I am saying is look at the societal evolution in different races and people groups. The hunter/gatherer/tribal people groups have typically progressed, in regards to societal evolution, at a much slower pace than others.

Look at the aboriginal peoples of Australia, North America, South America and Africa. We need to remember that these groups lived the same lifestyle for thousands of years before they encountered societies that were more advanced, i.e., formation of local governments, planters, etc. The deepest parts of Africa were only reached in the last 100 years or so. I feel it takes more than say, 50 years for people groups to adapt to new lifestyles or conditions.

It is not the race of the people group, but rather the pace of the societal evolution that is the issue at hand.

Take for instance the adaption, or lack thereof, of the Native Americans, or Indians if you please into traditional white culture. Of all the tribes that have been assimilated since the late 1800's, I think the Inuit or Eskimo's have adapted the best. I don't know why since I'm not a anthropologist, but I would think it's because even though they are influenced by white society, they are not overrun with it and can take the parts that work best for them and mix it into their heritage/culture.

red14 · 03-09-2010, 07:58 AM

The Seminoles in Florida have done just that. Use what they like and keep what like.

Trouble 45-70 · 03-09-2010, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marlin T

OH YA, like that is what really happened, pffft.

Would YOU just give up your farm?
Thats what I thought.

Is this the Hope and Change that is coming to place near you? After all, that is what spreading the wealth really boils down to.

Certainly beats outright seizure and murder as practiced by the Govt. of Rhodesia. They, the white farmers, probably think it is a good deal by comparison.

Wonder when the Feds. will seize my 20 acres and redistribute it among the truly disposesed of the 5th ward. After all no one has built them new housing. Evil, evil George Bush. Bad, bad white land owner. Must be punished. We need housing and social justice. Its a right. Don't believe me? Just read the Constitution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Down toward the bottom.

Insulation Tim · 03-09-2010, 02:53 PM

Scientists believe that the birth place of humans was Africa. My thoughts are certain Africans evolved for the better and realized that there could/would be a better world out there somewhere. They took the initiative to move out of the jungles of Africa and eventually created much of the civilized world.

The rest with possibly less intelligence and certainly less drive and initiative stayed in Africa and live as savage beasts. Africans, in my mind, represent a stage of evolution that stopped evolving eons ago.

Helix_FR · 03-09-2010, 04:17 PM

I always use the dirty diaper scenario when it comes to explaining why people never take the initiative to do anything to better themselves or the society they live in.
When you were babies, you all (hopefully) wore diapers, and you pooped in those diapers and depending on your age you just walked around in that poopy diaper until someone changed you and even then you fought and screamed b/c you didn't want your diaper changed. Your parents are like ewe gross how can you walk around with a poopy diaper. Well its all you knew, and its what you were used to, and you had no other choice b.c you didn't know how to use the toilet until a outside influence taught you better.
Same with these societies that just let everything go to hell. Its what they are used to, its what they know and they think its the norm, and no one has told them otherwise, so why change anything?
Is it their fault that they don't know how to farm? no (I don't even know how to)
Is it their fault that they never took the initiative to learn how or even try? yes

03-03-2010, 08:49 PM	#1
cycloneman Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Louisiana Posts: 7,404	I am not saying a thing. Speaks for itself. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8547621.stm Wednesday, 3 March 2010 South Africa black-owned farms 'failing' In 1994 almost 90% of the land was owned by white South Africans Some 90% of farms redistributed to South Africa 's black population from white farmers are not productive, the government has said. Land reform minister Gugile Nkwinti warned the land might be repossessed if the farms continued to fail. Almost 60,000 sq km (23,000 sq miles) have been redistributed under policies aimed at benefiting black people who were left impoverished by apartheid. The land was bought from white farmers who sold up voluntarily. The BBC's Pumza Fihlani in Johannesburg says some black farmers are likely to argue that they have been struggling to get the resources and skills to develop their land. And repossessing the land would provide a whole new problem for the government, our correspondent says, as any move to return the land to its former white owners is bound to be controversial. Sensitive issue The government had set a target of 2014 to redistribute one-third of white-owned land back to the black majority. But Mr Nkwinti acknowledged that the deadline would not be kept. He said the focus would now shift to helping the black farmers make their land productive. "The farms - which were active accruing revenue for the state - were handed over to people, and more than 90% of those are not functional," he said. "They are not productive, and therefore the state loses the revenue. We cannot afford to go on like that... No country can afford that." At the end of apartheid in 1994 almost 90% of land was owned by the white community, which made up less than 10% of the population. Land reform is a sensitive issue in South Africa and has been brought into sharp focus by the decline of agriculture in neighbouring Zimbabwe , where many white commercial farmers have been violently evicted. __________________ Who are you going to serve today? -->

03-04-2010, 11:52 AM	#2
Trouble 45-70 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: NE Ar. W. of Black River Contributor Posts: 2,703	Re: I am not saying a thing. Speaks for itself. Maybe they need to put up Agricultural Colleges all over the Country and have agents visit farmers to help them learn the latest farm technology's that will work in S. Africa using the available resources. Extension agents can also visit the wives and teach skills they need as farm wives. The kids can go to the colleges and come out with new skills. Kind of like what worked so well in this country that the A&M colleges are still a major educational resource to the nation. __________________ Psalm 12 verse 8: The wicked walk on every side when the vilest men are exalted.

03-04-2010, 01:35 PM	#3
bamajoey Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Pensacola Contributor Posts: 1,258	Re: I am not saying a thing. Speaks for itself. Or they could give them back to white farmers and return to prosperity.

03-04-2010, 06:07 PM	#6
Old Grump Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Little hut in the woods near Blue River Wisconsin Posts: 2,289	Re: I am not saying a thing. Speaks for itself. I'm pretty sure it was Bush's fault, let me check with Obama. Whole thing happened to fast without a management training program in place and the technical know how it was doomed to failure. Haste makes waste, always. Zimbabwe formerly Rhodesia is in the same pickle barrel but in worse shape. Proving once again rule by Communists carrying guns is a disaster happening. __________________ "When once a republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil."~~- Thomas Jefferson Roman Catholic, Life Member of American Legion, VFW, Wisconsin Libertarian party, Wi-FORCE, WGO, NRA, JPFO, GOA, SAFand CCRKBA

03-04-2010, 07:33 PM	#7
hogger129 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4,064	Re: I am not saying a thing. Speaks for itself. Why were these farms re-distributed to black people? Last edited by hogger129; 03-04-2010 at 07:34 PM..

03-05-2010, 02:01 AM	#10
Maximilian II Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Northwest GA Posts: 1,381	Re: I am not saying a thing. Speaks for itself. 40 acres and a mule, with a chicken in every pot. __________________ Karma is just justice, without the satisfaction. And I don't believe in justice. -Joe Sarno, bagman.

03-05-2010, 07:54 AM	#11
ampaterry TFF Admin Staff Chaplain Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: West Tennessee Contributor Posts: 6,284	Re: I am not saying a thing. Speaks for itself. Hey, isn't getting rid of the horrid Apartheid worth a little sacrifice and starvation? __________________ A woman who demands further gun control legislation is like a chicken who roots for Colonel Sanders. Larry Elder

03-05-2010, 09:42 AM	#12
cycloneman Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Louisiana Posts: 7,404	Re: I am not saying a thing. Speaks for itself. OK OK I know i wasn't going to say anything but I love these people so much i just can't stand it. Now, if you can't feed your self in you own country much less in any other country what good are you? I dont want to hear its because of a lack of education. They have been on this planet as long as everbody else. No excuses. Look at Haiti vs their neighbors. I don't want to hear it, stop making excuses for these people. __________________ Who are you going to serve today?

03-05-2010, 10:36 AM	#14
red14 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: N FLA Posts: 3,913	Re: I am not saying a thing. Speaks for itself. I think it proves that change, just for the sake of change, usually doesn't work. I think that farming is just about the hardest job on the planet, except maybe a soldier/sailor. Farmers work hard, all day. Anybody just can't do it. It takes a special person to work 18 hours EVERY DAY, to make a living. __________________ I never argue, I state my opinion, and support my position.

03-05-2010, 05:34 PM	#15
Gun Geezer Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Central Florida Posts: 1,710	Re: I am not saying a thing. Speaks for itself. I would guess that during the Apartheid years south african blacks were kept suppressed and undereducated to the point that they do not have the "tools" to work the farms to profitability. It will take more than redistribution of land and government give-aways to make successful farmers out of what amounted to slaves living in their own country. What's hard to understand is how democratic liberals can expect different outcomes by welfare, entitlement programs and give-aways to the poor and uneducated in this country.

03-05-2010, 06:46 PM	#16
cycloneman Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Louisiana Posts: 7,404	Re: I am not saying a thing. Speaks for itself. Well I don’t see it the way others see it. I think somewhere somehow somebody saw a log on the forest floor and got the idea of the wheel. I don't believe that idea came anywhere from Africa. Just saying. Some people have the ability to make things easier for themselves with some basic engineering. For example carrying water from the stream you pee in to the camp in wooded buckets on top of your head is an example of not using your brain. But I am sure there are people who still live like this today. Why? I don't know why you would want to live this way. I wonder what made that first person strain his brain to get out of such a mess. Others seem fine with drinking in the same hole they pee in. All I am saying is for thousands of years we have all been on this planet. Some people have decided to make rafts and boats to get around. They probably came to the conclusion to make a boat after they saw a log float in the stream where they pee. Somebody scratched their head and had an idea. Again I am going out on a limb and saying it did not happen in Africa. Same thing goes with math; you know 1 + 1 = 2 and so forth. I don’t believe math came from Africa. So it is no surprise to me that these people in history got by very simple. No body cared to strain their brain while they were on lunch break down by the river they pee in. I guess my point now is this. In 50 more years will Africans be able to farm on their own? Good question don't you think? So what if farming is a hard job. Boo hoo. Your not going to tell me to cut them some slack because they haven't educated themselves are you? Or that since you have to work 18 hours a day it's just too hard for a poor black man to do. Yea you gotta check the soil for ph. Yea,,,,, you gotta disc it up. Yea,,,,,, you gotta fertilize it. You gotta know how much to use. Now someone needs to know how to work that dreaded math. Yea,,,,, you gotta buy and plant the seeds. Yea,,,,, you gotta do the rain dance to the gods of water for rain. Yea,,,,,, cause you know there is just not enough workers to carry water from the stream you pee in to the crops. Oh gee! Then if the daw gone crop actually grows you gotta get someone to pick the darn things. That's if there are no bugs that got to them. Yea it's a bitch! Here is an idea just let the white man feed you. Cause working sucks! How long do you think it would take the African nation (with no help of course) to put a man on the moon? Go ahead I dare you to answer that one. In fact I am gona send that question to Alex Trebeck to put on Jeopardy. It's not their fault cause they didn't have the same chances. It's not their fault cause they didn't get an education. It's not their fault cause the white man made them slaves. It's not their fault cause gravity doesn't work in Africa. It's not their fault cause they weren't given enough. It's not their fault cause they didn't have the same god. It's not their fault cause it's too hot in Africa It's not their fault cause the white man outlawed math books in Africa It's not their fault cause they dont have a Wall mart to rip off tennis shoes from. It's not their fault cause they were put here on earth later then the rest of us. It's not their fault causa causa causa..... Now watermelons have to be imported to Africa from Mexico __________________ Who are you going to serve today?

03-08-2010, 12:36 PM	#17
45nut Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,428	Re: I am not saying a thing. Speaks for itself. Well Dayum cyclone, just get it out of your system. Been in LA too long?? Well, Dr Manning, who is black, asked where are all the contributions of Black Africa like great cities & civilizations, inventions, great writings, etc? They don't exist. Look at the state of affairs in every African nation being led by blacks. The Africans are now living in slums or shanty towns. The ever popular grass hut before that while still living in hunter/gatherer societies with no appreciable change in societal structure since before Christ. Their society has changed some in the last 200 years, but as soon as some Tootsie's and Hutu's get close to one another and someone has a machete, blood will be spilled. They are eons behind in basic societal evolution. The greatest achievements of Negro's have come in America since the abolition of slavery, present POTUS excepted. __________________ A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that. Shane Nemo me impune lacesset We recall the case of the Shoshone war band which showed up complete with one 30-30 rifle per man the week after Pearl Harbor, and simply wanted to have the enemy pointed out to them. "We hear there's a war going on and we want to go fight it." Jeff Cooper *KCCO* Last edited by 45nut; 03-08-2010 at 12:39 PM..

03-08-2010, 01:01 PM	#18
Willie Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Galveston,TX Contributor Posts: 1,002	Re: I am not saying a thing. Speaks for itself. I think it is simple. It is the "W" word again. No.......not white.....the word is WORK! And some just do not like it. __________________ Willie West End Electric Galveston Electricians

03-09-2010, 07:35 AM	#19
45nut Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,428	Re: I am not saying a thing. Speaks for itself. Let me clarify some because I don't want to be labeled a racist. What I'm *not* saying is that the black race is inferior and the white race is superior. All I am saying is look at the societal evolution in different races and people groups. The hunter/gatherer/tribal people groups have typically progressed, in regards to societal evolution, at a much slower pace than others. Look at the aboriginal peoples of Australia, North America, South America and Africa. We need to remember that these groups lived the same lifestyle for thousands of years before they encountered societies that were more advanced, i.e., formation of local governments, planters, etc. The deepest parts of Africa were only reached in the last 100 years or so. I feel it takes more than say, 50 years for people groups to adapt to new lifestyles or conditions. It is not the race of the people group, but rather the pace of the societal evolution that is the issue at hand. Take for instance the adaption, or lack thereof, of the Native Americans, or Indians if you please into traditional white culture. Of all the tribes that have been assimilated since the late 1800's, I think the Inuit or Eskimo's have adapted the best. I don't know why since I'm not a anthropologist, but I would think it's because even though they are influenced by white society, they are not overrun with it and can take the parts that work best for them and mix it into their heritage/culture. __________________ A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that. Shane Nemo me impune lacesset We recall the case of the Shoshone war band which showed up complete with one 30-30 rifle per man the week after Pearl Harbor, and simply wanted to have the enemy pointed out to them. "We hear there's a war going on and we want to go fight it." Jeff Cooper *KCCO*

03-09-2010, 07:58 AM	#20
red14 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: N FLA Posts: 3,913	Re: I am not saying a thing. Speaks for itself. The Seminoles in Florida have done just that. Use what they like and keep what like. __________________ I never argue, I state my opinion, and support my position.

03-09-2010, 02:53 PM	#22
Insulation Tim Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Ohio Contributor Posts: 2,298	Re: I am not saying a thing. Speaks for itself. Scientists believe that the birth place of humans was Africa. My thoughts are certain Africans evolved for the better and realized that there could/would be a better world out there somewhere. They took the initiative to move out of the jungles of Africa and eventually created much of the civilized world. The rest with possibly less intelligence and certainly less drive and initiative stayed in Africa and live as savage beasts. Africans, in my mind, represent a stage of evolution that stopped evolving eons ago. __________________ Tim *"Remember the Ark was built by amateurs....Professionals built the Titanic"*

03-09-2010, 04:17 PM	#23
Helix_FR TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Imperial, MO Posts: 3,624	Re: I am not saying a thing. Speaks for itself. I always use the dirty diaper scenario when it comes to explaining why people never take the initiative to do anything to better themselves or the society they live in. When you were babies, you all (hopefully) wore diapers, and you pooped in those diapers and depending on your age you just walked around in that poopy diaper until someone changed you and even then you fought and screamed b/c you didn't want your diaper changed. Your parents are like ewe gross how can you walk around with a poopy diaper. Well its all you knew, and its what you were used to, and you had no other choice b.c you didn't know how to use the toilet until a outside influence taught you better. Same with these societies that just let everything go to hell. Its what they are used to, its what they know and they think its the norm, and no one has told them otherwise, so why change anything? Is it their fault that they don't know how to farm? no (I don't even know how to) Is it their fault that they never took the initiative to learn how or even try? yes __________________ Only cowards shoot with their eyes closed.... helixgunsmith.com