Standing back and musing... - The Firearms Forum

4EvrLearning · 03-04-2009, 02:39 PM

Years ago, when the US began working with and in Iraq toward the goal of helping it become a viable democracy/republic, I came to the conclusion that such an undertaking would take probably 2-3 generations, at the minimum (if it were possible to achieve at all). Altering the essence of a nation...the whole of its culture...is obviously a monumental task. The fundamentals of Islam do not lend themselves to "democratic" rule or implementation of the freedoms we (used to) know in the US. Even if a select group of leaders and a smattering of followers desire such drastic cultural and governmental changes, in order to change the thinking of the masses toward acceptance of something so different seems incredibly difficult.

I bring this up as an analogy to what I think would have to happen here in the US for any measurable change back to being a healthy republic. We have a liberal “culture” in Congress and the White House that is not fundamentally friendly to the Constitution as it was written and intended. We have followers of that culture all over the country, distorting ethical and moral issues that for centuries have been widely accepted as “givens.” We have young people who have been taught for 20+ years that “truth is relative.” The list goes on…

My point is this: The republic-destroying ways of thinking that are being cultivated now in the US would take probably 2 generations to bring back in line with our Constitution--IF there were a way to get us ALL aligned with the thinking that our founding fathers had over 2 centuries ago. As a culture, have we become too selfish? Have we become too arrogant? Too rebellious? Too comfortable? Too entitlement-minded? If so (and I think we have) we are simply behaving like the fallible humans we are—ultimately, selfish.

Freedom without conscience, morality, respect for others, concern for others--respect for life!--becomes a double-edged sword. Some will use freedoms for good; some for bad. That’s the inherent risk in a free society. If we look back over history, isn’t one of the basic common threads running from era to era, the desire to control human behavior according to the “wisdom” of the leaders at the time? If so, then what we are experiencing is nothing new…we just have to rise to the occasion and hold fast to what we know is right and true, and fight for it within the bounds of law.

I hope I connected at least a few dots of logical thought here!

Dakota Red 1 · 03-04-2009, 03:23 PM

It is logical thought but I wouldn't give up on the Iraqis. Although Muslim, they are raised from the cradle to be productive capitalists. They will do anything they can to make a dime and support their families. Although they are handicapped by religious schism, there are few of them that are terrorists or want the ugliness of living in a war zone. What we did there, appreciated or not and a lot of them do, was throw off the yoke of a terrible tyrant. They had to live with oppressive fear every day of their lives and that is starting to change. I think the way they practiced their religion reflected that oppression. Iraqis with freedom and social mobility will be more moderate, better world citizens and an economic force for stability in the region.

I wish I had the same hope for us.

RunningOnMT · 03-04-2009, 11:41 PM

Very good post 4evr and I agree with you with only one small exception.

"we just have to rise to the occasion and hold fast to what we know is right and true, and fight for it within the bounds of law."

I don't think we can limit our fight to within the bounds of the law. At the heart of the problem is the corruption of the lawmakers. At some point there will be a clash between us and their laws.

4EvrLearning · 03-05-2009, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunningOnMT

Very good post 4evr and I agree with you with only one small exception.

"we just have to rise to the occasion and hold fast to what we know is right and true, and fight for it within the bounds of law."

I don't think we can limit our fight to within the bounds of the law. At the heart of the problem is the corruption of the lawmakers. At some point there will be a clash between us and their laws.

That's a valid point, Running. Specifically for me, as laws are passed that go contrary to God's laws, I'll be siding with Him, for sure!

03-04-2009, 02:39 PM	#1
4EvrLearning Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Left Coast Posts: 1,449	Standing back and musing... Years ago, when the US began working with and in Iraq toward the goal of helping it become a viable democracy/republic, I came to the conclusion that such an undertaking would take probably 2-3 generations, at the minimum (if it were possible to achieve at all). Altering the essence of a nation...the whole of its culture...is obviously a monumental task. The fundamentals of Islam do not lend themselves to "democratic" rule or implementation of the freedoms we (used to) know in the US. Even if a select group of leaders and a smattering of followers desire such drastic cultural and governmental changes, in order to change the thinking of the masses toward acceptance of something so different seems incredibly difficult. I bring this up as an analogy to what I think would have to happen here in the US for any measurable change back to being a healthy republic. We have a liberal “culture” in Congress and the White House that is not fundamentally friendly to the Constitution as it was written and intended. We have followers of that culture all over the country, distorting ethical and moral issues that for centuries have been widely accepted as “givens.” We have young people who have been taught for 20+ years that “truth is relative.” The list goes on… My point is this: The republic-destroying ways of thinking that are being cultivated now in the US would take probably 2 generations to bring back in line with our Constitution--IF there were a way to get us ALL aligned with the thinking that our founding fathers had over 2 centuries ago. As a culture, have we become too selfish? Have we become too arrogant? Too rebellious? Too comfortable? Too entitlement-minded? If so (and I think we have) we are simply behaving like the fallible humans we are—ultimately, selfish. Freedom without conscience, morality, respect for others, concern for others--respect for life!--becomes a double-edged sword. Some will use freedoms for good; some for bad. That’s the inherent risk in a free society. If we look back over history, isn’t one of the basic common threads running from era to era, the desire to control human behavior according to the “wisdom” of the leaders at the time? If so, then what we are experiencing is nothing new…we just have to rise to the occasion and hold fast to what we know is right and true, and fight for it within the bounds of law. I hope I connected at least a few dots of logical thought here! __________________ *"Until God is finished with me, I am immortal." Jonathan Edwards, American Theologian (1703-1758)* -->

03-04-2009, 03:23 PM	#2
Dakota Red 1 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 504	Re: Standing back and musing... It is logical thought but I wouldn't give up on the Iraqis. Although Muslim, they are raised from the cradle to be productive capitalists. They will do anything they can to make a dime and support their families. Although they are handicapped by religious schism, there are few of them that are terrorists or want the ugliness of living in a war zone. What we did there, appreciated or not and a lot of them do, was throw off the yoke of a terrible tyrant. They had to live with oppressive fear every day of their lives and that is starting to change. I think the way they practiced their religion reflected that oppression. Iraqis with freedom and social mobility will be more moderate, better world citizens and an economic force for stability in the region. I wish I had the same hope for us. __________________ Warte nur, balde ruhest du auch.

03-04-2009, 11:41 PM	#3
RunningOnMT Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Akron, Ohio Contributor Posts: 4,720	Re: Standing back and musing... Very good post 4evr and I agree with you with only one small exception. "we just have to rise to the occasion and hold fast to what we know is right and true, and fight for it within the bounds of law." I don't think we can limit our fight to within the bounds of the law. At the heart of the problem is the corruption of the lawmakers. At some point there will be a clash between us and their laws.